How the punch can relate to the rest of the system

Pardon a passing comment. Not relevant to much of the thread but related to the opening comment on the punch. Floating on the internet now is a video of Ip Man Punching.Might google Ip Man punching-
per You tube
 
“if you have time to block, you have time to cut”
When the old man enter, his left leading leg had touched his opponent's right leading leg twice, once outside and once inside. He could step in his left leading leg directly to where he wanted to step in. The reason that he built the "leg bridge" twice because he wanted to make sure that his opponent's right leading leg won't give him any trouble during his entering.

IMO, to have "safe entering" is the 1st step for your successful "finish". The reason that you want to build your "arm bridge" is the same reason as you want to build your "leg bridge".

 
When the old man enter, his left leading leg had touched his opponent's right leading leg twice, once outside and once inside. He could step in his left leading leg directly to where he wanted to step in. The reason that he built the "leg bridge" twice because he wanted to make sure that his opponent's right leading leg won't give him any trouble during his entering.

IMO, to have "safe entering" is the 1st step for your successful "finish". The reason that you want to build your "arm bridge" is the same reason as you want to build your "leg bridge".

That's a static demonstration. That double-touch actually gives an opponent time to shift and prevent the technique. Look at a Judo competition where they use a hip throw, and you'll see a full commitment of body weight into the throw, rather than a slow testing.

I'm not saying the bridging test isn't effective. It's just not the only approach that works.
 
I've noticed that tendency before with some form work. It's something I'm trying to avoid when I'm teaching/working with forms. I actively try to use words like "about 45 degrees", and focus them on the principles, rather than exact positions.
I agree as well, I usually give a range of around 10 degrees for them to work in (for example for the kim yeurn ma stance in Wing Chun I tell them toes point in 5 to 15 degrees.) I like being more specific than not, but I think that comes from my Sifu who by trade was an engineer, so for me as I learn it always has been very specific (15 degrees, on the dot, if it's off by a little it's off by a lot.)
 
-People always talk about a fighting stance in Wing Chun but for me a fighting stance has to be fluid and adapt to the situation.

- I don't hold my hands in any static posture and I don't stand still like I see many Wing Chun people do.

-I have always been taught to move around and not be a static target, and it's strange seeing some Wing Chun people spar standing in a Kim Yung Ma or Chum Kiu Ma stance and then getting smashed.

-Fighting stances should be dynamic and more "boxing like" than anything in my opinion.
 
I agree as well, I usually give a range of around 10 degrees for them to work in (for example for the kim yeurn ma stance in Wing Chun I tell them toes point in 5 to 15 degrees.) I like being more specific than not, but I think that comes from my Sifu who by trade was an engineer, so for me as I learn it always has been very specific (15 degrees, on the dot, if it's off by a little it's off by a lot.)
Indeed, when I practice the kata, I know exactly where I should be pointed. I like to think that's because the kata were designed especially for me, though. The guy who made them is very fond of me.:angelic:
 
-People always talk about a fighting stance in Wing Chun but for me a fighting stance has to be fluid and adapt to the situation.

- I don't hold my hands in any static posture and I don't stand still like I see many Wing Chun people do.

-I have always been taught to move around and not be a static target, and it's strange seeing some Wing Chun people spar standing in a Kim Yung Ma or Chum Kiu Ma stance and then getting smashed.

-Fighting stances should be dynamic and more "boxing like" than anything in my opinion.
I've seen the same in some folks in the aiki arts. For self-defense, we typically train from a static, neutral stance (shizentai). This transmits very little information to the attacker, and is the one position that is closest to how we're likely to be standing in an unpredicted attack. It sucks for sparring, though, and some people fail to make the connection that sparring is not the same as the start of an attack.
 
-People always talk about a fighting stance in Wing Chun but for me a fighting stance has to be fluid and adapt to the situation.

When I speak of stance, for the most part I refer to a stable stance from which you can both A. generate power from and B. resist the disruption of your center/balance that the opponent is going to try and accomplish

- I don't hold my hands in any static posture and I don't stand still like I see many Wing Chun people do.

My Sifu and his Master both repeatedly remind up that in a real fight you will not be holding your hands in the training man/wu posture. The main point of this is that, in training, you are programming yourself to protect, and attack from, your center properly. I still tend to keep my hands open (if a bit cupped) but that is because we also see the punch primarily as a tool to learn how to strike. Think of it as striking 101. Striking 201/301 is palm strikes and biu jee. I am also a fan of locks and takedowns (occupational hazard) and having the hands opens helps facilitate this.

-I have always been taught to move around and not be a static target, and it's strange seeing some Wing Chun people spar standing in a Kim Yung Ma or Chum Kiu Ma stance and then getting smashed.

-stances should be dynamic and more "boxing like" than anything in my opinion.

I think this is why I finally landed with TWC. It is hammered into your head that you need to get to the "blind side" and out of what my Sifu refers to as "death" which he illustrates with his arms outstretched into a 45 degree cone. The only way to do this is to stay mobile. The difference is that unlike what some see as a "stereotypical" boxer you don't "bounce" but you have to be dynamic.
 
I've seen the same in some folks in the aiki arts. For self-defense, we typically train from a static, neutral stance (shizentai). This transmits very little information to the attacker, and is the one position that is closest to how we're likely to be standing in an unpredicted attack. It sucks for sparring, though, and some people fail to make the connection that sparring is not the same as the start of an attack.

Yeah there is a big difference between thinking "hope this doesn't going to become a fight. better safe than sorry."
a38ee460-e492-4446-a461-5c9fc8e91eef.jpg


hands are always in front even if just "talking like an italian" or casually folded.








"I think this going to become a fight but try to talk him down"
photo-1-1.jpg






and "oh crap it's on!"

L_WINNING.jpg
 
When I speak of stance, for the most part I refer to a stable stance from which you can both A. generate power from and B. resist the disruption of your center/balance that the opponent is going to try and accomplish



My Sifu and his Master both repeatedly remind up that in a real fight you will not be holding your hands in the training man/wu posture. The main point of this is that, in training, you are programming yourself to protect, and attack from, your center properly. I still tend to keep my hands open (if a bit cupped) but that is because we also see the punch primarily as a tool to learn how to strike. Think of it as striking 101. Striking 201/301 is palm strikes and biu jee. I am also a fan of locks and takedowns (occupational hazard) and having the hands opens helps facilitate this.



I think this is why I finally landed with TWC. It is hammered into your head that you need to get to the "blind side" and out of what my Sifu refers to as "death" which he illustrates with his arms outstretched into a 45 degree cone. The only way to do this is to stay mobile. The difference is that unlike what some see as a "stereotypical" boxer you don't "bounce" but you have to be dynamic.
-Although I don't do TWC, my school also heavily emphasizes fighting on the "blind side" rather than in front of the person like a lot of other WC schools do.

-exactly, don't bounce, but be dynamic, don't just stand there and get smacked.
 
That double-touch actually gives an opponent time to shift and prevent the technique.
When the old man used his leading left leg to touch on the outside of his opponent's leading right leg, the old man want his opponent to do 2 things, either move right leading foot

1. in front of old man's left foot by stepping forward and move out of contact, or
2. behind of old man's left foot by stepping backward and move out of contact.

For

- 1, the old man will use "embrace throw".
- 2. the old man will use hip throw, or leg block.

One way or another, the old man doesn't care how his opponent will respond. It will all fall into his "plan".

Here is an example if his opponent's right foot is still in front of his left foot.


When you apply your "set up" move, you want to do it slow so your opponent will have enough time to respond to it.

In striking art,

- You throw a "slow" back fist.
- Your opponent blocks.
- You then punch him from a different angle.

In throwing art,

- You throw a "slow" leading leg attack.
- Your opponent steps back.
- You then attack his other leg.

Here is an example.

 
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you need to get to the "blind side"
Agree! All MA systems use this strategy.

Front door entry:

PRO: You have total control on your opponent. Your opponent's body is completely under your attack. It's harder for your opponent to escape out of your attack. If you think you are better than your pponent, attack his front door.
CON: You have to deal with both of your opponent's hands. Your waist is exposed for your opponent and your opponent can drag you down with him.

Side door entry:

PRO: You only have to deal with one of his hands. It's difficult if not impossible for your opponent to drag you down. You can move into his back door easily. If you think your opponent is better than you, attack his side door.
CON: You only have partial of your opponent's body to attack. It's easily for your opponent to escape out of your attack.

 
Yeah there is a big difference between thinking "hope this doesn't going to become a fight. better safe than sorry."
a38ee460-e492-4446-a461-5c9fc8e91eef.jpg


hands are always in front even if just "talking like an italian" or casually folded.








"I think this going to become a fight but try to talk him down"
photo-1-1.jpg






and "oh crap it's on!"

L_WINNING.jpg
The practice of starting with hands down is to simulate a time when we don't see it coming, and must react from that point. It's a "worst case" of where our hands could be. In some NGA schools, all simulations start from this point. I mix it up more, with some simulations starting here, some starting with their "fence" of choice, some starting from their "fighting stance" of choice.
 
When the old man used his leading left leg to touch on the outside of his opponent's leading right leg, the old man want his opponent to do 2 things, either move right leading foot

1. in front of old man's left foot by stepping forward and move out of contact, or
2. behind of old man's left foot by stepping backward and move out of contact.

For

- 1, the old man will use "embrace throw".
- 2. the old man will use hip throw, or leg block.

One way or another, the old man doesn't care how his opponent will respond. It will all fall into his "plan".

Here is an example if his opponent's right foot is still in front of his left foot.


When you apply your "set up" move, you want to do it slow so your opponent will have enough time to respond to it.

In striking art,

- You throw a "slow" back fist.
- Your opponent blocks.
- You then punch him from a different angle.

In throwing art,

- You throw a "slow" leading leg attack.
- Your opponent steps back.
- You then attack his other leg.

Here is an example.

Again, that's one set of options. Not all arts take that approach, and no approach is without drawbacks. For my throws, I'm more likely to enter with a fast hand strike than a slow leading leg attack. Most of my throws don't attack the leg, so the position of his body is more important than the leg (I can read what I need from his body).
 
Agree! All MA systems use this strategy.

Front door entry:

PRO: You have total control on your opponent. Your opponent's body is completely under your attack. It's harder for your opponent to escape out of your attack. If you think you are better than your pponent, attack his front door.
CON: You have to deal with both of your opponent's hands. Your waist is exposed for your opponent and your opponent can drag you down with him.

Side door entry:

PRO: You only have to deal with one of his hands. It's difficult if not impossible for your opponent to drag you down. You can move into his back door easily. If you think your opponent is better than you, attack his side door.
CON: You only have partial of your opponent's body to attack. It's easily for your opponent to escape out of your attack.


The thing is there are some Lineages of WC that are basically all about the front door. They may have strategies and tactics that are intended to essentially force the opponent to turn so they end up effectively at the side door but in my experience, in real fights that never works unless you are fighting a "Gumby" as Drop Bear sometimes calls them. So more often than not, once in the front door you end up stuck there until someone "wins" or runs.
 
This is why the OP asked me "why would you want to move in a circle?"
Perhaps.

That gets tricky though because it also depends on your point of view. Some people think that moving around your opponent is moving in a circle. To my mind I am not, I am always moving straight. It may be on angles but always moving straight.

Without knowing more about his particular school I really can say.
 
Some people think that moving around your opponent is moving in a circle. To my mind I am not, I am always moving straight. It may be on angles but always moving straight.
We are talking about the same thing here.

The moment that my back foot can line up with my opponent's both feet, I'll move in straight. The reason that I walk in circle is to look for that particular "angle". The problem is if my opponent keeps turning with me, I have to keep looking for that "angle".
 
We are talking about the same thing here.

The moment that my back foot can line up with my opponent's both feet, I'll move in straight. The reason that I walk in circle is to look for that particular "angle". The problem is if your opponent keeps turning with you, you have to keep looking for that "angle".

Well it's same thing yes, different methodology. I tend to describe things badly just with words (I need to demonstrate most often) I sometimes use this diagram from fencing, the "masters wheel" to describe what I am speaking about.

circle-300x288.gif

Essentially, simply by changing the angle, you can move into position in a straight line, this way you can still use some forward momentum to strike and defend. You may circle indeed but that is before you enter something just outside combat range once you are almost close enough to strike the circle stops, otherwise you risk your balance/structure if they force the engagement.
 
Well it's same thing yes, different methodology. I tend to describe things badly just with words (I need to demonstrate most often) I sometimes use this diagram from fencing, the "masters wheel" to describe what I am speaking about.

circle-300x288.gif

Essentially, simply by changing the angle, you can move into position in a straight line, this way you can still use some forward momentum to strike and defend. You may circle indeed but that is before you enter something just outside combat range once you are almost close enough to strike the circle stops, otherwise you risk your balance/structure if they force the engagement.
Well stated. Continuing a circle once you actually engage is doing to yourself what I would do if I can attach to you. Circles are not the friend of stability, unless you are the center.
 

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