How the punch can relate to the rest of the system

[anerlich]

Here is a simple example.

If your body is used to do this - freeze your body and only move your arms:

You will have difficulty to change your body to do this later on - body unification:

Dude in the second photo's rounded back will give him a short career. Horrible form. Keep your spine straight!

Of course, it could have been drawn by someone with little knowledge of kinesiology ... or artistic talent.

This is the Wing Chun forum I know and love ... nitpicking, nitpicking, nitpicking.

 

[anerlich]

Whether they want to or not, I think most Wing Chun guys actually practice arm only punches at the beginning.

You're in YGKYM. Learning to put your bodyweight behind a punch when you have no foot movement and limited hip movement is difficult. It's much easier, and easier to learn, to incorporate bodyweight into the punch, by stepping forward as you punch IMO.

There are concepts I call non-resistance and formlessness (not giving him your whole body) which deal with the guy grabbing your punch and pulling you in, but I regard these as more advanced than just learning to punch. Often moving to around where the guy wants to take you, but a bit earlier than he expects, can work.

This is not to say OP's approach has no merit. Just a different take on teaching.

As in wrestling, if you know a scramble is about to happen, make sure you initiate it, not the other guy.

 

[dudewingchun]

Trying to stay in YGKYM and do a turning punch from that stance in a real fight is never going to happen imo.

 

[obi_juan_salami]

Trying to stay in YGKYM and do a turning punch from that stance in a real fight is never going to happen imo.

Why not?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Why not?

Because if you use "turning punch" and turn your body to your

- left, it will hurt your left knee.
- right, it will hurt your right knee.

The YGKYM is not a proper fighting stance. Besides you can't use it to move

- forward 3 feet like cat stance can,
- backward 3 feet like monkey stance can,

it's also vulnerable for

1. foot sweep - the inward 45 degree foot angle expose your heel.
2. double legs - both knees are too close to each other.

 

[obi_juan_salami]

Because if you use "turning punch" and turn your body to your

- left, it will hurt your left knee.
- right, it will hurt your right knee.

The YGKYM is not a proper fighting stance. Besides you can't use it to move

- forward 3 feet like cat stance can,
- backward 3 feet like monkey stance can,

it's also vulnerable for

1. foot sweep - the inward 45 degree foot angle expose your heel.
2. double legs - both knees are too close to each other.

Heres a video doing everything you just said either caused damage to oneself or was not possible: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=643656182507861&id=394978440708971

 

[KPM]

We may have the same "body unification" goal, but our paths are different.

1. Your path is to start from "free the body and only move the arm". You try to learn how to move your arm first. You don't mind to develop "body method" a bit later.
2. My path is to start from "freeze the arm and only move the body". I try to learn how to move my body first. I want to develop "body method" ASAP.

#1 is how it is done in Ku Lo Pin Sun Wing Chun. You first learn with a "still body" and later learn how to add the body to generate more power. Like learning to crawl before you learn to walk or run.

 

[KPM]

Because if you use "turning punch" and turn your body to your

- left, it will hurt your left knee.
- right, it will hurt your right knee.

The YGKYM is not a proper fighting stance. Besides you can't use it to move

- forward 3 feet like cat stance can,
- backward 3 feet like monkey stance can,

it's also vulnerable for

1. foot sweep - the inward 45 degree foot angle expose your heel.
2. double legs - both knees are too close to each other.

Not the way I learned the YGKYM! It is simply "neutral" and still very mobile. You can step in any direction with it. And when the pivot is done correctly, it shouldn't harm the knees. This is especially true in TWC where you actually pick up the feet slightly when you pivot to eliminate any friction with the ground.

 

[drop bear]

I've got no idea what WC theory/principles are, but I would find it hard to comprehend a system which does not involve the body to increase the power of any technique. Everything I've ever done, TKD, HKD Karate, Muay Thai, Judo, Aikido/Aikijujutsu... all of them develop power with the body, though they may talk about the "how" in slightly different language and nomenclature, it all ends up being the same concept.

I think the difference is whether you reach for the target. Either by hip rotation or bending forwards. Or use foot work to take you to the target.

 

[Danny T]

Heres a video doing everything you just said either caused damage to oneself or was not possible: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=643656182507861&id=394978440708971

When the feet pivot on the turn it is no longer YJKYM.

 

[obi_juan_salami]

When the feet pivot on the turn it is no longer YJKYM.

If you watch closely there are i think 2 steps in the video in YJKYM

 

[Danny T]

If you watch closely there are i think 2 steps in the video in YJKYM

There are a couple of forward steps and then a return to YJKYM but he isn't doing a turning punch when in YJKYM.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Not the way I learned the YGKYM! It is simply "neutral" and still very mobile. You can step in any direction with it. And when the pivot is done correctly, it shouldn't harm the knees. This is especially true in TWC where you actually pick up the feet slightly when you pivot to eliminate any friction with the ground.

If your opponent uses low roundhouse kick (or foot sweep) at your YGKYM, you have to turn your shin into his kick (if you don't lift your foot and escape out of it), your inward foot angle will change into an outward foot angle, you are no longer in your YGKYM any more.

IMO, any fighting stance that you cannot "spring forward from it" is not a good fighting stance. When your opponent shows a weakness, your fast speed to move in is important. In order to have a good "forward spring", both of your knees should point toward your opponent. This way, you only need to shift your weight, you don't need to turn your feet.

 

[APL76]

We may have the same "body unification" goal, but our paths are different.

1. Your path is to start from "free the body and only move the arm". You try to learn how to move your arm first. You don't mind to develop "body method" a bit later.
2. My path is to start from "freeze the arm and only move the body". I try to learn how to move my body first. I want to develop "body method" ASAP.

Fair enough. For us the unification of the body and the arms and stance, though absolutely critical, is still predicated on the individual components of the body’s movement (say, Jun Ma and Punch for example) and these themselves are predicated on a solid foundation (Yi Ji Kim Yeung Ma). From my point of view teaching it, the stronger each of those components are in isolation, the easier it will be for the person I’m teaching to put them together and the better the quality when they do.

 

[KPM]

IMO, any fighting stance that you cannot "spring forward from it" is not a good fighting stance. .

But you can spring forward quite easily from either the YGKYM or the "pivoted" Pin Sun Ma.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

But you can spring forward quite easily from either the YGKYM or the "pivoted" Pin Sun Ma.

Do you have any clip to show it?

 

[APL76]

Do you have any clip to show it?

Here is a short clip I cut together recycling some of the video I have already made. In this you can see my students, including Obi Juan Salami, “springing forwards” from YJKYM, from a natural standing position, from the side on stance (we call it either chut san bo or Gok Ma) and moving around in different combinations of all of them, there’s even some of me with my ruined back still able to do it, albeit slow and sloppy. If anyone tells you you can’t move out of YJKYM with a lot of speed and power it’s a dead giveaway in my opinion, that that person has never done even close to the training to facilitate it.

 

[anerlich]

If anyone tells you you can’t move out of YJKYM with a lot of speed and power it’s a dead giveaway in my opinion, that that person has never done even close to the training to facilitate it.

The question we are discussing isn't whether you can do it or not, but whether this is the best position from which to learn to punch with power. Your opinion was it was best to learn to just use the arm first, not adding the body.

Punching with power and no footwork is a more advanced skill. And good for demos, not something likely to occur in a defence situation.

 

[KPM]

Do you have any clip to show it?

Well, since you asked!

 

[wingerjim]

In CMA, we want to achieve the 6 harmonies. The outer 3 harmonies are:

1. hand coordinate with foot.
2. elbow coordinate with knee.
3. shoulder coordinate with hip.

IMO, the 2 that elbow coordinate with knee is the most important one (when your feet are not moving such as WC stance).

When you punch and your feet are not moving, your hand cannot coordinate with your foot. Your shoulder also cannot coordinate with your hip. The only thing you can do is to coordinate your elbow with your knee. This will force you to concentrate on your knee bending and knee straight process. If you ignore this in the early training stage, to obtain this kind of coordination will take you twice as much time and effort later on.

In the following clip, you can clearly see that his knee and elbow are "coordinated".

Though this is interesting I do not see how anyone can be rooted bouncing up and down like that....basically he is moving his center of gravity up, thus uprooting himself, and the result is no solid foundation, which is the cornerstone of Wing Chun.