How Pure Are The Arts?

[puunui]

won hyo is almost move for move heian nidan.

The beginning section is substantially similar, but the back end not so much. I wouldn't say they are "almost move for move" the same form.

your theory that "the korean names are just korean versions of the japanese names, no renaming here" is false in the case of form Dan Gun
there is no JAPANESE form named after the legendary founder of korea......

Which shotokan form is the same as dan gun? You talk about won hyo above.

 

[Twin Fist]

i was sure you would deny they were the same even though it is pretty clear. Even the back end, where they changed the sudo blocks to the box block-upper cut-lung punch combo they kep the same angles, the same count, the...

whatever

ok never mind you go on thinking as you will.

 

[puunui]

I don't know who you are, and how much you actually know about Kajukenbo, other then you claimed to have been Peter Choo III's friend in the 80's.

He's still my friend today. Kevin too. Peter works at a furniture store here part time and I recently bought about $5000 worth of new bookshelves from him.

Anyone can come on a forum and claim anything, and throw in a few facts gleaned from the internet.

Is that what you really think I did?

Dacascos did not "change the name to Wun Hop Kuen Do". And it is "Wun" with a U. It is "Kajukenbo Wun Hop Kuen Do". Wun Hop Kuen Do is one of the 4 recognized styles of the Kajukenbo system.

I hear he lives in Hawaii again. I saw him once at a blockbuster video store in kalihi a while back. His son Mark is also here at least part time working as Wo Fat on Hawaii Five O. I have students who do stunt work on the show and they all say he is a very cool guy, and easy to work with. Quick learner too.

I knew Godin and was aware of his incarcerations. But Buell didn't start leaving Godin's name out of his history until many years after Godin passed.

Actually, Professor Buell started writing Professor Godin (or "Chief") out of his history 30 years ago. That was one of the main reasons why they changed the name of the school from Godin's School of Self Defense to Universal Kempo. Professor Godin was hard core, and even used to take his students to Judo tournaments to compete.

Oh, the haole thing. In the 23 years that I have been a martial arts journalist and author, I have never been treated with any suspicions by my friends and acquaintances in Hawaii.

Other than perhaps this:

I wrote to [Professor Ordonez] several times in the 80's early 90's (pre-internet), but he never returned any of my letters.

I understand that subsequently he wrote to you a couple of times after your first book came out. But still, the above was his response to your early efforts to contact him.

In fact my first trip to Hawaii was at the invitation of a Hawaiian Lua group who paid all the expenses.

Was that with the Eli brothers, and maybe Kainoa Li? Little known fact: Dennis Eli (I don't know what title is used in Lua) was stationed at Osan AFB and received a Moo Duk Kwan 1st Dan in 1968.

And in the 28 years I've been in Kajukenbo, I've never been treated like anything but a brother by my Hawaiian brothers and sisters.

Again, other than this:

I wrote to [Professor Ordonez] several times in the 80's early 90's (pre-internet), but he never returned any of my letters.

How well do you know Frank Ordonez? I've never heard him or anyone around him refer to him as "Professor". He's always been either "grandmaster", "Co-founder", but mostly the title he prefers is "Uncle Frank".

In Hawaii, we tend to address all Kenpo 8th Dans and higher as Professor, unless they choose a different title, such as Sijo. Or at least I do. Professor Ordonez addresses me as "Shihan" for some reason.

Who are you to say Holck was wrong when he made the statement with Choo and Emperado sitting in chairs next to him agreeing?

Well, let's compare what Professor Holck said at the interview "Peter did Korean karate-tang soo do, and boxing. Frank Ordonez did judo. I did jujitsu and judo. Sonny (Emperado) did kenpo. And Chang did Chinese boxing. So I said, why don't we call it Ka-ju-ken-bo."

with what you wrote earlier:

George Chang had some kung fu training, but kung fu did not have belt ranks at the time. And from some accounts, George Chang did not continue with martial arts training after the Korean War.
Peter Choo had some Korean martial arts training as a child from his father. He was also a proficient boxer, and had some training in both Kenpo, and Danzan Ryu jujitsu. After the Korean War, Choo was stationed in Korea, Okinawa, and Japan during his military career. He continued with his martial arts training, and earned black belts in Aikido, Tae Kwon Do, and Shorinji Ryu Karate. His aikido black belt came from Koichi Tohei, and his Tae Kwon Do (Tang Soo Do at the time) black belt came from Joon Rhee.
Frank Ordonez had some training in Kodokan Judo, Danzan Ryu jujitsu, and Kenpo, at the time of the founding of Kajukenbo.

So to compare:

On Peter Choo's background:
Professor Holck:Korean karate-tang soo do, and boxing.
You: Boxing, some training in Kenpo and Danzan Ryu Jujitsu (no Korean Karate-tang soo do, and no jujitsu)

On Frank Ordonez' background:
Professor Holck: judo.
You: Boxing (in an earlier post), plus Kodokan Judo, Danzan Ryu Jujitsu and Kenpo

Who is wrong, you or Professor Holck at that interview with Sijo and Professor Choo sitting in chairs next to him agreeing?

Without going thru every counter or kata in my head right now, there are kung fu techniques/movements in knife counter 1, grab art 8, punch counter 8, Palama Set 9, Palama Set 3, Palama Set 12, Punch Counter 10, Alphabet B, and probably more that don't come to mind right now.

That might not help those who are following along, who may not know what these techniques are. But for example, in knife counter 1 and grab art 8, are you referring to that windmill move as the technique that you state came from George Chang's kung fu?

I don't know why Peter Choo kept the card so long. Possibly because it was a memento of his time in Korea. I still have a old beat up judo rank card from 1961 that I've kept as a memento. Doesn't mean that I have this great feeling of loss that I never became a judo black belt.

Are you japanese? and do you still have that judo card in your wallet? If so, then perhaps you can understand why a Korean American like Professor Choo would keep his taekwondo rank card in his wallet for over thirty years. Also, I think that he did believe that he earned a 1st degree black belt in korea, instead of a 1st guep red belt. That was one of the reasons why I didn't go forward with the taekwondo promotion. I didn't want to tell him that it wasn't a black belt rank indicated on the card. That was also a reason why I thought about perhaps getting him a higher rank like kwan 5th Dan or so.

You really think it would have been your place to promote someone who was probably a accomplished martial artist long before you were born?

Sure why not? I saw his face and could feel how much that taekwondo rank card meant to him. And if it is in my power to get him higher kwan rank with a card that he could carry around in his wallet, why shouldn't I consider it, for exactly the reasons you state above? Perhaps it wouldn't mean anything to you, from your non-korean perspective, but it did mean something to him, from his korean heritage perspective.

But I'm pretty confident in the file cabinet full of notes, letters, documents, and video tapes verifying the information I've put out. And like I said, I've been active in Kajukenbo for 28 years. I've personally known or know many of the people involved in making Kajukenbo history.

Like I said in an earlier post, don't worry about it. You have nothing to prove to me. It's all good.

 

[puunui]

i was sure you would deny they were the same even though it is pretty clear. Even the back end, where they changed the sudo blocks to the box block-upper cut-lung punch combo they kep the same angles, the same count, the...

whatever

ok never mind you go on thinking as you will.

The two are not as you say, almost move for move the same form. From an objective standpoint, your statement is incorrect.

Won Hyo

Heian Nidan

 

[Twin Fist]

ok, night and day, whatever you say.....

 

[John Bishop]

Is that what you really think I did?

I have no clue. You've never really (at least in this thread) identified yourself, or produced any evidence to back up the information your presenting.

Other than perhaps this:

I understand that subsequently he wrote to you a couple of times after your first book came out. But still, the above was his response to your early efforts to contact him.

I never really worried about it. From what I was told by Sijo and some of the seniors, Ordonez didn't really communicate with any of them anymore, and had no interest in the arts anymore. By his own admission, he left the arts around 1958 because it was taking too much of his time away from his family and other interests.

Was that with the Eli brothers, and maybe Kainoa Li? Little known fact: Dennis Eli (I don't know what title is used in Lua) was stationed at Osan AFB and received a Moo Duk Kwan 1st Dan in 1968.

It was the Lua Halau O Kaihewalu organization.

Well, let's compare what Professor Holck said at the interview "Peter did Korean karate-tang soo do, and boxing. Frank Ordonez did judo. I did jujitsu and judo. Sonny (Emperado) did kenpo. And Chang did Chinese boxing. So I said, why don't we call it Ka-ju-ken-bo."

with what you wrote earlier:

So to compare:

On Peter Choo's background:
Professor Holck:Korean karate-tang soo do, and boxing.
You: Boxing, some training in Kenpo and Danzan Ryu Jujitsu (no Korean Karate-tang soo do, and no jujitsu)

On Frank Ordonez' background:
Professor Holck: judo.
You: Boxing (in an earlier post), plus Kodokan Judo, Danzan Ryu Jujitsu and Kenpo

Who is wrong, you or Professor Holck at that interview with Sijo and Professor Choo sitting in chairs next to him agreeing?

Neither. My explanation included all the various training the founders had. Holck was only explaining how he came up with the name, using the 5 main Asian arts, and boxing. He didn't mention every form of training each founder had. If he did, he would have had to mention that Emperado also had judo training, and escrima training.

That might not help those who are following along, who may not know what these techniques are. But for example, in knife counter 1 and grab art 8, are you referring to that windmill move as the technique that you state came from George Chang's kung fu?

Your expecting me to write out every movement in every technique that has a kung fu strike, kick, stance, etc? You do realize that many kung fu techniques are not unique to kung fu and are also found in kenpo and other martial arts? So no matter what I write, you can come back and say it didn't come from Chang.
Without writing out step by step descriptions of each technique, I can say that there are "wind mill" strikes, "Tiger Claw" strikes, "Crane stances", soft circular blocking, palm blocking, and other techniques in Kajukenbo that can also be found in kung fu.

Are you japanese? and do you still have that judo card in your wallet? If so, then perhaps you can understand why a Korean American like Professor Choo would keep his taekwondo rank card in his wallet for over thirty years. Also, I think that he did believe that he earned a 1st degree black belt in korea, instead of a 1st guep red belt. That was one of the reasons why I didn't go forward with the taekwondo promotion. I didn't want to tell him that it wasn't a black belt rank indicated on the card. That was also a reason why I thought about perhaps getting him a higher rank like kwan 5th Dan or so.

Yes, half. I was born in Kyoto, Japan. My mother's maiden name was Miyazaki. My father was a U.S. Marine that was stationed in Japan after the Korean War.
I don't carry the card in my wallet anymore, or have a deep longing to practice a art from my mother's country. I'm pretty happy practicing a American martial art. But I do have the card in a file with other judo mementos, shotokan mementos, aikido mementos, Kajukenbo mementos, etc. It's just one of my good memories, like playing high school football, or college track.

Sure why not? I saw his face and could feel how much that taekwondo rank card meant to him. And if it is in my power to get him higher kwan rank with a card that he could carry around in his wallet, why shouldn't I consider it, for exactly the reasons you state above? Perhaps it wouldn't mean anything to you, from your non-korean perspective, but it did mean something to him, from his korean heritage perspective.

I'm sure Peter Choo had many opportunities and time to continue his training in taekwondo if he had really wanted. The training that he did have was probably equal to or superior to some of the modern high ranking taekwondo masters today. Here in So. Cal there's a taikwondo school on just about every corner full of 8-9 year old black belts. And a ton of 20 something masters, running 1-2 year black belt programs.

Like I said in an earlier post, don't worry about it. You have nothing to prove to me. It's all good.

Not interested in proving anything to you. Like I said, I don't even know who you are, or your connection to Kajukenbo, if any. Just disputing some Kajukenbo information posted on the forum by a anonymous source. Anyone can write anything anonymously on the internet.

 

[puunui]

produced any evidence to back up the information your presenting.

Technically, neither have you then, if we are held to the same standard. But that's ok.

From what I was told by Sijo and some of the seniors, Ordonez didn't really communicate with any of them anymore, and had no interest in the arts anymore. By his own admission, he left the arts around 1958 because it was taking too much of his time away from his family and other interests.

I know that Professor Ordonez kept in touch with Professor Choo and other martial artists, and he did show up for at least a couple of kajukenbo reunions. You also told us that he has his own organization now. So I don't know how truthful or accurate that statement by Sijo was. I think Kajukenbo is something that is very dear to Professor Ordonez' heart and that he is glad that he was able to contribute at least a small part to its development.

It was the Lua Halau O Kaihewalu organization.

Ok, that's a different one.

Neither. My explanation included all the various training the founders had. Holck was only explaining how he came up with the name, using the 5 main Asian arts, and boxing. He didn't mention every form of training each founder had. If he did, he would have had to mention that Emperado also had judo training, and escrima training.

So you understand my perspective on Professor Holck's comments on video then, that there is no need to make accusations, especially when no harm was intended.

Your expecting me to write out every movement in every technique that has a kung fu strike, kick, stance, etc? You do realize that many kung fu techniques are not unique to kung fu and are also found in kenpo and other martial arts? So no matter what I write, you can come back and say it didn't come from Chang.

I am not expecting you to write out every movement in every technique. I am trying to understand what actual contributions, if any, George Chang made to the kajukenbo curriculum. I get how important the chinese martial arts have become to kajukenbo, with titles, with branches, etc. So I can see why a connection to chinese martial arts would be useful to explain the progression and evolution of kajukenbo to today. Still, if George Chang's only role was photographer, I do not think that diminishes kajukenbo in any way. Do you? Even you said that most of the heavy lifting in Kajukenbo's development was done by Sijo, Professor Holck and Professor Choo.

Without writing out step by step descriptions of each technique, I can say that there are "wind mill" strikes, "Tiger Claw" strikes, "Crane stances", soft circular blocking, palm blocking, and other techniques in Kajukenbo that can also be found in kung fu.

But did it come from George Chang? That was my question, not whether kung fu techniques were part of the original Kajukenbo. There are other sources of chinese martial arts in kajukenbo's lineage besides the Bo in Kajukenbo, especially when boxing played such a prominent role in Kajukenbo's development. For example, Sijo's teacher Professor Chow is said to have had a chinese martial arts background, which he blended with Kosho Ryu to create Karaho Kempo. Many of Professor Chow's students took that and ran with it, exploring more deeply by studying kung fu directly. GM Ed Parker is one example. Sijo Emperado is another who chose that route. Why not explain it that way, instead of going with the five guys/five arts story that really doesn't fit with what actually happened.

Yes, half. I was born in Kyoto, Japan. My mother's maiden name was Miyazaki. My father was a U.S. Marine that was stationed in Japan after the Korean War. I don't carry the card in my wallet anymore, or have a deep longing to practice a art from my mother's country. I'm pretty happy practicing a American martial art. But I do have the card in a file with other judo mementos, shotokan mementos, aikido mementos, Kajukenbo mementos, etc. It's just one of my good memories, like playing high school football, or college track.

See? So you do understand how Professor Choo felt then.

I'm sure Peter Choo had many opportunities and time to continue his training in taekwondo if he had really wanted. The training that he did have was probably equal to or superior to some of the modern high ranking taekwondo masters today. Here in So. Cal there's a taikwondo school on just about every corner full of 8-9 year old black belts. And a ton of 20 something masters, running 1-2 year black belt programs.

Speaking of one or two year black belt programs, have you had the opportunity to see any of Sijo's certificates? And if so, are you going to be featuring any of those in your future books? My understanding is the Sijo started training with Professor Chow in 1946, and you stated that Sijo and Professor Holck were the only ones who were black belts in 1947-49 when the Black Belt Society created Kajukenbo. Do you know when Sijo received his black belt from Professor Chow? How about his Chief Instructor 5th Degree?

Not interested in proving anything to you. Like I said, I don't even know who you are, or your connection to Kajukenbo, if any. Just disputing some Kajukenbo information posted on the forum by a anonymous source. Anyone can write anything anonymously on the internet.

I don't know, seems through this discussion that you are doing a lot more agreeing than disputing. You started at an 80% agreement rate, but I think it is higher now. Don't you.

 

[Wo Fat]

This [Kajukenbo historical] back and forth always brings to my mind the analogy of historians for Columbus who consistently ignored the obviousness of America's indigenous people -- until the obvious could no longer be ignored. Columbus and his self-appointed historians could have been truthful and simply acknowledged reality. Instead, they palmed off their exploits as history for all the world to learn. And now the world knows better.

Point being, the purity of any art is going to be about history on the one hand, and "his"-story on the other hand.

 

[puunui]

This [Kajukenbo historical] back and forth always brings to my mind the analogy of historians for Columbus who consistently ignored the obviousness of America's indigenous people -- until the obvious could no longer be ignored. Columbus and his self-appointed historians could have been truthful and simply acknowledged reality. Instead, they palmed off their exploits as history for all the world to learn. And now the world knows better.

Point being, the purity of any art is going to be about history on the one hand, and "his"-story on the other hand.

I think good stuff is coming out of the discussion. At some point, perhaps the discussion could be moved to the Kajukenbo forum, but I think everyone is learning. I know I am. I am not a Kajukenbo hater. I am not against Kajukenbo. I am in fact for Kajukenbo, because it is from Hawaii, where I was born and raised. If Kajukenbo does well, then it is a good and positive reflection on Hawaii as well. I am also for truth in discussions, and I think in that regard, truthful information is coming out, from both sides. I think there have been some misconceptions on Kajukenbo's roots and history, just like there are misconceptions about taekwondo's or hapkido's or any other martial arts' background. I owe Kajukenbo and its co-founders a debt of gratitude for setting me on the path of historical research. If it weren't for that article in Inside Kung Fu, maybe I would not have been motivated to go out and meet the pioneers of all these arts.

 

[Wo Fat]

I think good stuff is coming out of the discussion. At some point, perhaps the discussion could be moved to the Kajukenbo forum, but I think everyone is learning. I know I am. I am not a Kajukenbo hater. I am not against Kajukenbo. I am in fact for Kajukenbo, because it is from Hawaii, where I was born and raised. If Kajukenbo does well, then it is a good and positive reflection on Hawaii as well. I am also for truth in discussions, and I think in that regard, truthful information is coming out, from both sides. I think there have been some misconceptions on Kajukenbo's roots and history, just like there are misconceptions about taekwondo's or hapkido's or any other martial arts' background. I owe Kajukenbo and its co-founders a debt of gratitude for setting me on the path of historical research. If it weren't for that article in Inside Kung Fu, maybe I would not have been motivated to go out and meet the pioneers of all these arts.

No worries; you didn't come across as a hater. At least not to me. It looks to me like you're offering some pretty different--and plausible--perspective. Perspective is good; and when it's based in truth ... it's best.

 

[John Bishop]

Technically, neither have you then, if we are held to the same standard. But that's ok.

Well, we don't know who you are, or your background. Most of the people who have been in Kajukenbo for a while know who I am. Many of the kenpo people too. For over 20 years my research has been used in magazines, books (mine and other authors), websites, and forums. Including this one, that I have been a member of for 10 years, and also serve as a "advisor" to. So a lot of my research is out there in print. There's even You Tube videos of me interviewing Sijo Emperado. In doing research I've always tried to talk with actual participants in the events, and then verify thru another source or witness.
So I ask again. Who are you, and what is your background?

I know that Professor Ordonez kept in touch with Professor Choo and other martial artists, and he did show up for at least a couple of kajukenbo reunions. You also told us that he has his own organization now. So I don't know how truthful or accurate that statement by Sijo was. I think Kajukenbo is something that is very dear to Professor Ordonez' heart and that he is glad that he was able to contribute at least a small part to its development.

Well, your talking about 5 different individuals and their relationships. I know Sijo hadn't had contact with Holck, Choo, and Chang, for at least a 30 year period. Probably 50 years in Chang's case. Uncle Frank left the islands off and on in the 50's. The last contact he and Emperado had concerning Kajukenbo was around 1968, when Uncle Frank helped him incorporate the KSDI. But Uncle Frank was not named on the 1960 KSDI trademark registration Sijo did. People who trained with Emperado in the 60's, say they never saw or met Uncle Frank. Other's may say different.
The first reunion Uncle Frank attended was the June 15-17 1995 KSDI annual tournament in San Jose, Ca. His "Ordonez Kajukenbo Ohana" was started on Feb. 15, 2008. For many of the Kajukenbo seniors, including those who were Hawaiians, the 95 event was the first time they had seen or met the other founders.
Joe Holck moved to Tucson, Az. in 1964. It wasn't until the 80's that some Kajukenbo student in Tucson mentioned to his instructor that his uncle was one of the Kajukenbo founders. And then that instructor went to Holck's Jujitsu school to visit him. That led to his being brought to Hawaii to attend the Turtle Bay reunion in the early 90's.

I am not expecting you to write out every movement in every technique. I am trying to understand what actual contributions, if any, George Chang made to the kajukenbo curriculum. I get how important the chinese martial arts have become to kajukenbo, with titles, with branches, etc. So I can see why a connection to chinese martial arts would be useful to explain the progression and evolution of kajukenbo to today. Still, if George Chang's only role was photographer, I do not think that diminishes kajukenbo in any way. Do you? Even you said that most of the heavy lifting in Kajukenbo's development was done by Sijo, Professor Holck and Professor Choo.

But did it come from George Chang? That was my question, not whether kung fu techniques were part of the original Kajukenbo. There are other sources of chinese martial arts in kajukenbo's lineage besides the Bo in Kajukenbo, especially when boxing played such a prominent role in Kajukenbo's development. For example, Sijo's teacher Professor Chow is said to have had a chinese martial arts background, which he blended with Kosho Ryu to create Karaho Kempo. Many of Professor Chow's students took that and ran with it, exploring more deeply by studying kung fu directly. GM Ed Parker is one example. Sijo Emperado is another who chose that route. Why not explain it that way, instead of going with the five guys/five arts story that really doesn't fit with what actually happened.

Most of the Chinese martial arts influence and titles didn't start coming into Kajukenbo until 1968, for the development of Chuan Fa, Wun Hop Kuen Do, and Tum Pai.
The Original (Kenpo) Method has kung fu techniques in it that I have never seen in the Mitose/Chow schools of kenpo. And none of the other founders had kung fu training.
When Emperado trained with Chow they were still affliated with Mitose, and practicing "kenpo jiu jutsu", not Kara-ho. One of the reasons he wanted to expand beyond his kenpo, was because he said it was strickly a hard style, linear, Okinawan type karate. He also did not believe that Chow actually had any kung fu training, because he never saw Chow demonstrate or teach anything that resembled kung fu.
And Parker got all his kung fu influence on the mainland from people like Ark Y Wong and James Wing Woo.

Speaking of one or two year black belt programs, have you had the opportunity to see any of Sijo's certificates? And if so, are you going to be featuring any of those in your future books? My understanding is the Sijo started training with Professor Chow in 1946, and you stated that Sijo and Professor Holck were the only ones who were black belts in 1947-49 when the Black Belt Society created Kajukenbo. Do you know when Sijo received his black belt from Professor Chow? How about his Chief Instructor 5th Degree?

Nope, I haven't seen his certificates. Don't even know if Chow gave out certificates back then. Sijo did say that he had his 5th degree certificate. From what I remember without digging out some notes, he got his shodan around the same time Holck did, 1949. And Chow gave him a 5th degree Chief Instructor promotion in 1955. There was no 2nd, 3rd, 4th, degree promotions. As Sijo described it, "Professor Chow came over and said; Mitose promoted me to 10th degree. I'm promoting you to 5th degree." You'd have to know some history on Mitose and Chow to understand how that went down.

 

[MJS]

The reason why it doesn't match is because all the histories of kajukenbo all revolve around the same stuff repeated over and over. But think about it. "Walter" Choo could not have learned "Korean Tang Soo Do" in 1947 when the Black Belt Society was created, because he was born in the United States, did not speak Korean, and was living in Hawaii. When did he get the chance to go to Korea, 1946? I don't think so. Professor Choo is Korean through his parents, his father Peter YY Choo the first was on the ship of first to come to Hawaii to work on the plantations, in 1905 I want to say, but does that make what he learned from Professor Young "Korean Karate" such that we can claim the addition of kicks in Kajukenbo? Ka and Ken are from the same arts, Kenpo Karate, which makes sense when you think about it. And what is Sekeino Jujitsu? Anyone have any information on that? Things like that.

Well, my point was simply that there are so many versions of stories out there, IMHO, I think its important to get the facts or as close to the facts as possible. Given the fact that Prof. Bishop has been in the Kaju circles for a long time, I tend to lean more towards what he says. This isnt to say that what you're saying is wrong. But when you start seeing numerous versions, again, I want whats closest to the source/accuracy.

 

[puunui]

So I ask again. Who are you, and what is your background?

Sure, you can ask. But I think there is a MT rule about demanding answers, cross examination or interrogation style questions, or things like that. If people don't answer, I don't think you can keep asking them the same question. Maybe one of your moderator friends can clarify that point. As for who I am, nobody special. If you passed me on the street, you probably wouldn't notice me at all.

Well, your talking about 5 different individuals and their relationships. I know Sijo hadn't had contact with Holck, Choo, and Chang, for at least a 30 year period. Probably 50 years in Chang's case. Uncle Frank left the islands off and on in the 50's. The last contact he and Emperado had concerning Kajukenbo was around 1968, when Uncle Frank helped him incorporate the KSDI. But Uncle Frank was not named on the 1960 KSDI trademark registration Sijo did. People who trained with Emperado in the 60's, say they never saw or met Uncle Frank. Other's may say different.
The first reunion Uncle Frank attended was the June 15-17 1995 KSDI annual tournament in San Jose, Ca. His "Ordonez Kajukenbo Ohana" was started on Feb. 15, 2008. For many of the Kajukenbo seniors, including those who were Hawaiians, the 95 event was the first time they had seen or met the other founders.
Joe Holck moved to Tucson, Az. in 1964. It wasn't until the 80's that some Kajukenbo student in Tucson mentioned to his instructor that his uncle was one of the Kajukenbo founders. And then that instructor went to Holck's Jujitsu school to visit him. That led to his being brought to Hawaii to attend the Turtle Bay reunion in the early 90's.

Ok, so the 30 year comment doesn't apply to Professor Ordonez, because Sijo did see him in 1968, which is what I believe I said, right? And because Professor Choo and Professor Holck were related by marriage, they obviously kept in contact. And I know Professor Ordonez kept in contact with Professor Choo as well. So when you were speaking about the 30 years of separation, it was more having to do with Sijo losing touch with the other co-founders, and not the co-founders amongst themselves.

Most of the Chinese martial arts influence and titles didn't start coming into Kajukenbo until 1968, for the development of Chuan Fa, Wun Hop Kuen Do, and Tum Pai. The Original (Kenpo) Method has kung fu techniques in it that I have never seen in the Mitose/Chow schools of kenpo. And none of the other founders had kung fu training.

Are you certain that the techniques that you feel belong with the Original Method was in fact the same material that was in place in 1947-49? Or had it evolved by 1968 with Sijo's own study of chinese martial arts as well as the study of the seniors on the mainland?

When Emperado trained with Chow they were still affliated with Mitose, and practicing "kenpo jiu jutsu", not Kara-ho. One of the reasons he wanted to expand beyond his kenpo, was because he said it was strickly a hard style, linear, Okinawan type karate. He also did not believe that Chow actually had any kung fu training, because he never saw Chow demonstrate or teach anything that resembled kung fu.

Professor Chow's kung fu or chinese martial arts background is an interesting topic. His style was constantly evolving and did include kung fu or chinese martial arts techniques as time went on. Where he got it, is a good question. You sometimes hear the term "Chinese Kenpo Karate", which is generally attributed to Kajukenbo lineage students (Professor Godin is one example, as is Professor Buell), but I wonder if the only "chinese" in Chinese Kenpo Karate is because Professor Chow was half Chinese, sort of like how Professor Choo's Kenpo Karate got turned into "Korean Karate" because Professor Choo is Korean.

And Parker got all his kung fu influence on the mainland from people like Ark Y Wong and James Wing Woo.

GM Parker does credit Professor Chow for that though. How does that work, in your mind? Also, I understand that GM Parker used to visit Palama Settlement and perhaps other branches when he was in Hawaii during the 1950's, that GM Parker was influenced as much or more by Kajukenbo than perhaps Professor Chow. Any comments on that topic?

Nope, I haven't seen his certificates. Don't even know if Chow gave out certificates back then. Sijo did say that he had his 5th degree certificate. From what I remember without digging out some notes, he got his shodan around the same time Holck did, 1949. And Chow gave him a 5th degree Chief Instructor promotion in 1955. There was no 2nd, 3rd, 4th, degree promotions. As Sijo described it, "Professor Chow came over and said; Mitose promoted me to 10th degree. I'm promoting you to 5th degree." You'd have to know some history on Mitose and Chow to understand how that went down.

So if Sijo was promoted to black belt in 1949, then he wasn't a black belt for most of the time period that the Black Belt Society was busy creating Kajukenbo, 1947-1949. Also, I don't think Professor Chow ever referenced Professor Mitose by his last name only. He was respectful in that way.

 

[MJS]

Sure, you can ask. But I think there is a MT rule about demanding answers, cross examination or interrogation style questions, or things like that. If people don't answer, I don't think you can keep asking them the same question. Maybe one of your moderator friends can clarify that point. As for who I am, nobody special. If you passed me on the street, you probably wouldn't notice me at all.

Oh good God....seriously?? LOL! I think what Prof. is trying to say is...if someone non Kaju is going to pop on and start talking about Kaju, it'd sure be nice to know the persons creds. Does this person really know what they're talking about or are they talking out of their ***? Jesus he wasn't holding in the interview room, with the light over your head...he simply asked who you were. Funny you should mention rules. If you know them so well, then you'd also know that you've broken many yourself.

But lets not turn this thread into a mud slinging fest. Some good discussion going on, and I'd like to keep it that way please.

 

[puunui]

Well, my point was simply that there are so many versions of stories out there, IMHO, I think its important to get the facts or as close to the facts as possible. Given the fact that Prof. Bishop has been in the Kaju circles for a long time, I tend to lean more towards what he says. This isnt to say that what you're saying is wrong. But when you start seeing numerous versions, again, I want whats closest to the source/accuracy.

I live in Hawaii, how much closer can you get than that? And if you believe Professor Bishop, then I think that is saying that you also believe me, because we started off at 80% and I think it is higher at this point. But like I said, I really don't have a stake in Kajukenbo history other than it being from Hawaii and me wanting it to prosper, because it is from Hawaii.

 

[MJS]

I live in Hawaii, how much closer can you get than that? And if you believe Professor Bishop, then I think that is saying that you also believe me, because we started off at 80% and I think it is higher at this point. But like I said, I really don't have a stake in Kajukenbo history other than it being from Hawaii and me wanting it to prosper, because it is from Hawaii.

OTOH, I could live in Brazil and not know a damn thing about BJJ. Anyways....like I said, I dont believe I was disputing what you said, just that I think its normal to question something, when you're faced with multiple answers to a question.

I think discussions and forums like this are good, especially when you get the chance to share knowledge and interact with various people.

 

[puunui]

One of the reasons he wanted to expand beyond his kenpo, was because he said it was strickly a hard style, linear, Okinawan type karate.

On this topic, what do you think about Professor Mitose and Okinawan Karate? I saw a video interview of Professor Thomas Young, who I believe basically admitted that Professor Mitose's kenpo came from Okinawa. And to me, Professor Mitose's features look Okinawan, as opposed to a mainland Japanese. I think Professor Mitose was Okinawan myself. I have a book from Mizuho Mutsu I believe and it has the some of the same photographs that Professor Mitose included in his book What is Self Defense.

 

[puunui]

I think discussions and forums like this are good, especially when you get the chance to share knowledge and interact with various people.

Me too. Please feel free to jump into the discussion at anytime. It doesn't have to be only Professor Bishop and myself.

 

[Wo Fat]

Oh good God....seriously?? LOL! I think what Prof. is trying to say is...if someone non Kaju is going to pop on and start talking about Kaju, it'd sure be nice to know the persons creds. Does this person really know what they're talking about or are they talking out of their ***? Jesus he wasn't holding in the interview room, with the light over your head...he simply asked who you were. Funny you should mention rules. If you know them so well, then you'd also know that you've broken many yourself.

But lets not turn this thread into a mud slinging fest. Some good discussion going on, and I'd like to keep it that way please.

I obviously don't know the poster either, but from what he's been writing, he appears to be offering at least some things that have been known--though not necessarily written as gospel--by many within Kajukenbo. By his posts, he seems to be offering (what LOOKS like) legitimate perspective based on either first-hand communication, first-hand knowledge, inference, or a combination of those things. Seems like a fair standard to apply.

As a Kajukenbo man--dating back to the late 1970's--and as someone who understands the occasional consequences of speaking freely, I understand to some degree why the poster chooses to remain anonymous.

 

[puunui]

Funny you should mention rules. If you know them so well, then you'd also know that you've broken many yourself.

Well, what can I say, I have been a rule breaker my whole life. But on the other hand, walking one the edge is where out of the ordinary things happen. I enjoy my iphone because Steve Jobs kept pushing the envelope and wanted more. I'm glad he broke the rules. Professor Bishop just needs to get to a place where he realizes I am not an anti-kenpo or anti-kajukenbo guy and take this for what it is, which is an opportunity to show people just how special kajukenbo really is. He's getting there. Who knows, he might even sell a few more books through this discussion. I hope he does, and I hope people get more curious about kajukenbo, perhaps enough to even study the art itself. I don't know about you, but I'm getting excited about kajukenbo through these discussions, as we wait around for the USOC Hearing Panel to issue its order on remedies in the USA Taekwondo case.