Twin Fist
Grandmaster
i do not believe this is correct.
How Pure Are The Arts?
- Thread starter MJS
- Start date
shihansmurf
Black Belt
I thought blue was 60 years old. That's what leo mcgarry said on a west wing episode. I always keep at least two bottles in the house, one open, one not.
Blue Label Johnnie Walker is 24. I don't know if Johnnie sells anything older. I'm more of a Balvienie and McCalan fan. I much perfer single malts to blended.
Mark
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
I think purity in many things implies quality or greater wholesomeness or integrity. I think in the case of martial arts it is a squabbling point that sometimes misses the wood for the trees. I think if it was not for all the myriad stages of plagiarism and dilution of martial material down through the aeons, none of us would be practicing and enjoying ANY of the arts we are doing.
In answer to MJS original question, I would say that I think purity in martial arts is overrated and I am grateful for adulteration of martial styles
In answer to MJS original question, I would say that I think purity in martial arts is overrated and I am grateful for adulteration of martial styles
I dont do Kajukenbo. However, John Bishop, whos page I took this from, is a member here. I'll defer any Kaju related questions to him.
I went to college with Professor Peter Choo's son (also named Peter) as well as Kevin Funakoshi (son of Sensei Kenneth Funakoshi, one of the first Kajukenbo black belts). We used to play cards at lunch everyday. Then one day an article about Sijo Emperado came out in Inside Kung Fu I think. I mentioned that article, and they started ripping in about all of the inaccuracies. I later met the co-founders through Peter and also Professor Walter Godin and they confirmed what Peter and Kevin were saying that day. Professor Frank Ordonez for example, has never heard of Sekeino Jujutsu and therefore never studied that. He told me directly that he studied Kodenkan Jujitsu at the Kaheka Lane dojo under Professor Sam Luke. If you have any information on that art, please let me know and I will be sure to pass it on to him. Professor Choo said that he was a boxer in the US Army and studied Kodenkan Jujitsu with Professor Luke and Kenpo Karate with Professor Thomas Young, who taught a class out of the Kaheka Lane Kodenkan dojo. Professor Choo said he never studied Tang Soo Do, but did study taekwondo in the 1960s when he was stationed in Korea. He was also a big Aikido fan and studied that when he was stationed in Japan, again in the 60s. When they created the Black Belt Society, they said it was an inside joke because they were all white belts at the time, except for Professor Holck. Even Sijo Emperado was a white belt at the time, studying with Professor Chow. In fact, there is a very beautiful portrait of Sijo in his white uniform and white belt that Professor Ordonez has. Professor Holck is half japanese and had a japanese last name, but they changed it to his mother's maiden name after the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. They were all friends from Farrington High School, except for Professor Holck, I think grew up in Kailua. He came in the group because he was the cousin of Professor Choo's wife.
I believe Professor Bishop knows all of this and more, but for his own reasons has that other information on his webpage. Not for me to judge or criticize him for what he does or doesn't do. Kajukenbo is a rich and very interesting art for me, which I never studied. But I did grow up very close to both the Palama Settlement and Nuuanu YMCA as well as the original Queen Emma Street dojo of Professor Mitose, about one mile down the Pali Highway from all of that, in Puunui.
But finding out about kajukenbo's history through the co-founders themselves was my motivation to study korean martial arts history by seeking out the founders and hearing it from their own mouths and showing me using their own photo albums and documents. So I am grateful to kajukenbo and the co-founders for steering me on the path that I follow to this day. In that way, I guess I did learn from them the key concept of getting it from the horse's mouth.
Good choices. Can't go wrong with single malt.
What debate?
But in any event, that's why I don't get all excited when I read some "official" webpage about history. If you wish to get the real scoop, do what Professor Bishop and others do and get it directly from the source. Often times much different than the generic message meant for the masses.
We can talk about GM Ed Parker too if you want, although I don't know if you are going to like what I have to say. My uncle was "locker" member of the Nuuanu YMCA and was training with Professor Chow in the 1950s when GM Parker used to infrequently come to visit for short periods and train.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #50
I don't want to speak for him, but I got the impression that Twin Fist was disputing what you said. As I said, I'm not Kaju. However, I figured that since Prof. Bishop had this stuff on his site, that what he listed, would be correct. FWIW, I wasn't disputing what you were saying. I'm just looking for facts, thats all.
We can talk about GM Ed Parker too if you want, although I don't know if you are going to like what I have to say. My uncle was "locker" member of the Nuuanu YMCA and was training with Professor Chow in the 1950s when GM Parker used to infrequently come to visit for short periods and train.
LOL...fire away.
Trust me sir, I doubt you'll offend me. Why? Because I myself, have questioned things many times, and I'm more than sure I've pissed off my fair share of Kenpoists, but thats fine. I have my views, they have theirs. If they dont agree with mine, I could care less....I'm more than happy with my thoughts on the art. Anyways, I'd be happy to hear what you have to say.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
I will let Prof Bishop reply if he so chooses, but i will say that i have never heard a version of kaju history that matches puunui's post
ever
ever
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
At some point tho, I believe it just becomes what it is, at least if it was well integrated. I believe Choy Lay Fut was developed from a combination of things learned by the founder, including Northern Shaolin. People recognize the history, but at this point it's just CLF. I don't believe people distinguish what elements came from which parent art, at least not in the sense of needing to avoid plagiarism issues. Same thing with Fut Gar, I believe was derived from a blending of Hung Gar and something else. But at this point I doubt any Fut Gar people distinguish much, other than on an academic level. It's now Fut Gar, and nobody's afraid to call it that for plagiarism issues.
Sometimes things are adopted into a system where it's just really coming from a different approach and (in my opinion at least) maybe those blends don't always make a lot of sense. If someone adopts a famous kata from one system into their curriculum, for example, then I think it makes sense to recognize where it came from and that it was adopted/borrowed/cannibalised.
If someone attempted to take credit for creating such a kata tho, people would see thru it in an instant esp. if it was a famous kata. There's enough people out there who know what they are talking about that such a deception would not get very far.
LOL...fire away.
Well, as I said, my uncle was a long time member of the Nuuanu YMCA, which was right down the road from our houses (we lived next door to each other). He trained with Professor Chow during the 50's and introduced Professor Chow to his wife Patsy. So Professor Chow was very grateful to my uncle. Professor Chow and his wife would always visit my uncle's house for dinner and try and get us kids to train with him. But frankly, when we were kids, Professor Chow looked kind of scary, so we weren't so interested. Besides, we were taking other martial arts as well. But anyway, when the subject of GM Ed Parker came up, it always came out that he trained very very little with Professor Chow. I think he trained a little with Professor Chow before he moved to Utah for college, was on his mormon mission and then the coast guard. So he was hardly around. I think they said that EP made it officially to blue belt under Professor Chow. In the photos that GM Parker has in his infinite insights volume 1, GM Parker is wearing his blue belt in that photo. My uncle is in the first row on the left with the widow's peak forehead. I heard that Professor Chow, after much begging, allowed GM Parker to wear a black belt on the mainland, because he had a club going in Utah at school. When he moved to Los Angeles, GM Parker did keep in touch with Professor Chow through correspondence and sent some small money to Professor Chow every now and then. Professor Chow had letters from GM Parker saved from the 50s and 60s, pleading poverty because of this or that. Those letters were stuck in between issues of old Black Belt magazines that Professor Chow had saved in beer boxes in his garage, covered with canvas. I would say Professor Chow had a love hate relationship with GM Parker, more hate than love. I think Professor Chow resented GM Parker for what he felt was using his name to legitimize what he was doing, which Professor Chow felt had almost nothing to do with his art. Professor Chow said that GM Parker's style was mostly some "chop suey" combination of kung fu that he learned when he moved to Los Angeles, and that the only thing that was his was the name. When Professor Chow passed away, GM Parker did show up to the funeral crying, so there is that. I think it was a complicated love hate relationship.
How deeply have you researched kajukenbo's history? I don't really have any reason to fabricate this, and if you choose not to believe me, then that's cool. But that's what the co-founders said to me, confirmed with photographs. They took a lot of pictures of everything, because Mr. Chang was a photographer. He's still alive by the way, as far as I know. He didn't die in "the war", which I believe is what Sijo stated in that Inside Kung Fu interview by Professor Gary Forbach. Peter and Kevin are still my friends, if you have any questions, and I can ask them. I took shotokan from Kevin's father and Kevin and Peter went to high school together.
The reason why it doesn't match is because all the histories of kajukenbo all revolve around the same stuff repeated over and over. But think about it. "Walter" Choo could not have learned "Korean Tang Soo Do" in 1947 when the Black Belt Society was created, because he was born in the United States, did not speak Korean, and was living in Hawaii. When did he get the chance to go to Korea, 1946? I don't think so. Professor Choo is Korean through his parents, his father Peter YY Choo the first was on the ship of first to come to Hawaii to work on the plantations, in 1905 I want to say, but does that make what he learned from Professor Young "Korean Karate" such that we can claim the addition of kicks in Kajukenbo? Ka and Ken are from the same arts, Kenpo Karate, which makes sense when you think about it. And what is Sekeino Jujitsu? Anyone have any information on that? Things like that.
I agree with probably 80% of what you have written. Over the last 60+ years there have been a number of inaccuracies concerning the history of Kajukenbo that have been handed down from generation to generation.
As stories get told over and over, some things get changed, exaggerated, left out, forgotten, or added in. Most are just minor honest mistakes and misunderstandings. Some were innocent exaggerations to make the Kajukenbo legend seem bigger then it really was. And a few were exaggerations to make a individual's legend bigger then it really was. Often times by others after that person had passed. And a very few were just plain malicious lies.
In researching my first book, and several magazine articles over the years, I spent a lot of one on one time discussing Kajukenbo history with Sijo Emperado. In person, and in letters and phone calls. In the last years of his life, he was spending several months a year in Hawaii visiting friends and relatives. So a lot of my last discussions with Sijo were by letters. Because I was writing a book that would take a long time to compile, I started attaching questionnaires to my letters, so my questions were clear, and Sijo could easily answer them in his own words. These questionnaires also provided me a record of history written in Sijo's own hand.
In addition, I have 4 video taped interviews of Sijo. Two of those interviews also include one or 2 of the other founders. Sijo did 3 in the 1980's. One for Panther Productions. Another with Sijo, Peter Choo, and Joe Holck in Hawaii. And another with Sijo, and Joe Holck in Arizona. Also, in the 1990's, there's the one I personally did with Sijo.
From interviews and statements from Sijo, Peter Choo, and Joe Holck, here are their answers on the following topics.
The "karate" in Kajukenbo is Tang Soo Do.
Yes and no. Peter Choo said that he had some training from his father in Korean martial arts. This was prior to the official founding of Tang Soo Do in 1945. Many say Tang Soo Do is just renamed Shotokan, since Korea was a Japanese Colony from around 1905-1945. In reality many Korean martial arts were combined with other arts, refined, and renamed. Tang Soo Do-So Bak Do was a early name used by several Korean Kwans. It is unknown if the Korean art Peter Choo had learned from his father was one of the one's that was later united under the "Tang Soo Do" banner.
I asked Sijo how Peter Choo could be a tang soo do practitioner, since Tang Soo Do was not founded until 1945. His response was: "Peter Choo knew Korean karate, everybody called Korean karate Tang Soo Do." Which makes sense, since Tang Soo Do had been the official name for the Korean striking and kicking arts at the time. The names "Tae Kwon Do", "Hapkido", "Kuk Soo Won" were not commonly used until the 60's.
The five founders (Black Belt Society) of Kajukenbo were black belts.
During the time of 1947 thru 1949, the only founders who were black belts were Sijo in Kenpo, and Joe Holck in Danzan Ryu Jujitsu.
Around 1952, Joe Holck also received his black belt in Kodokan Judo.
George Chang had some kung fu training, but kung fu did not have belt ranks at the time. And from some accounts, George Chang did not continue with martial arts training after the Korean War.
Peter Choo had some Korean martial arts training as a child from his father. He was also a proficient boxer, and had some training in both Kenpo, and Danzan Ryu jujitsu. After the Korean War, Choo was stationed in Korea, Okinawa, and Japan during his military career. He continued with his martial arts training, and earned black belts in Aikido, Tae Kwon Do, and Shorinji Ryu Karate. His aikido black belt came from Koichi Tohei, and his Tae Kwon Do (Tang Soo Do at the time) black belt came from Joon Rhee.
Frank Ordonez had some training in Kodokan Judo, Danzan Ryu jujitsu, and Kenpo, at the time of the founding of Kajukenbo.
They trained together everyday for 3 years.
At first for a while, but Sijo and Joe Holck said after that they trained "whenever they could get together". And sometimes not all of them were together. Four of them were still in the Army in 1947-48, so they weren't able to get together "everyday".
The main players on the mat were Emperado, Choo, and Holck. Ordonez and Chang participated some, but spent a lot of time recording the system and techniques in writing and photos.
The "Bo" in Kajukenbo was for Chinese Boxing (kung fu).
Yes and no. Four of the 5 founders (Emperado, Choo, Ordonez, Holck) were boxers (western boxing). The 5th founder was a kung fu stylist (Sil-lum Pai). Techniques from both Chinese Boxing and western Boxing found their way into Kajukenbo. But since martial arts were considered "Asian" at the time, the western boxing influence and escrima influence were not emphasized at the time.
George Chang was killed in the Korean War.
In 1950, the 5 founders were separated by military and work obligations. It was rumored that George Chang had been reported "missing in action" in the Korean War. The founders were geographically separated and not really in communication with each other for around 30 years. The only founder who had stayed with Kajukenbo from day one, was Emperado. Not hearing anything over the years about Chang, Emperado and others assumed that he had died in the war.
There was a lot of shocked people when Chang showed up at Peter Choo's funeral in 1997. After the war he returned to Hawaii, but never became involved in the martial arts again. He died for real in 2003.
That's more than most people who were anxiously waiting for your reply was expecting. Sometimes people have to hear it from one of their own before they accept and believe something. Thanks for your response. Some questions and comments though.
How come you didn't interview Professor Ordonez? To me, he is the original kajukenbo historian. I would think you would want to speak to him first.
Some quick comments. Did Professor Choo specify what exactly his father taught him? It couldn't have been tang soo do because that term was not invented until 1944, when GM LEE Won Kuk created it. Also Peter Choo the first could not have taught his son Tang Soo Do, because he couldn't have learned Tangsoodo, or karate. As stated previously, Mr. Choo came on the first shipload of native Koreans to Hawaii in 1905, five years before the Japanese occupation started, in 1910. And everybody did not call korean karate "Tang Soo Do", because that term was not known in the west until 1956, when the first American, Master Dale Doulliard, began studying it at Yong San. Mr. Doullilard became the first American to receive a black belt in any korean martial art in 1957, when he received 1st Dan from the Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan. Master Droullilard is alive and still lives in Michigan.
I was told he had zero training and in any event, he did not participate at all in the creation of kajukenbo outside of photographing the techniques for the original manual. He was a photographer in the US Army. Therefore it is misleading to include him and siulumpai as the basis for "bo", especially since there were so many others who did american or western boxing, which did play a heavy role in the creation of kajukenbo techniques. Siulumpai did not come to Hawaii until 1962, through Master Buck Sam Kong. That was and still is the name of his organization, siulumpai. So that is probably where Sijo got the term siulumpai from, from Sifu Buck Sam Kong, who was maybe the most famous kung fu practitioner in hawaii back in the 60s and 70s.
Professor Choo was NOT a black belt in Taekwondo, and did NOT study under GM Jhoon Rhee. In fact, Professor Choo showed me his taekwondo rank card, 1st guep (1st kyu in japanese) from a taekwondo kwan whose name I did not recognize. I remember the card was dated in the 1960s and Professor Choo said he received that when he was stationed in Korea.
Professor Ordonez said that he had some boxing training as well, but was not as accomplished at Professor Choo, who was the best boxer of the group.
I attended Professor Choo's funeral and no one was in shock when Mr. Chang showed up. My understanding was the Professor Choo and Mr. Chang kept in touch over the years. Professor Choo's son told me that Mr. Chang was alive back when we were in college in the early 80s. Also, I have seen photos of Professors Choo and Ordonez wearing uniforms at the Palama Settlement school in the 60s for sure, so the statement about everyone losing touch for 30 years is incorrect.
I wrote to him several times in the 80's early 90's (pre-internet), but he never returned any of my letters. I don't really know how much of a historian he could be, since he was not actively involved in Kajukenbo from around 1958 to the 90's. He may have visited people or communicated with people during that time, but he or any of the other founders (besides Emperado) did not have a active part in Kajukenbo after the 50's. You also have to remember that after 1960, most of the activity and seniors in Kajukenbo moved to the mainland.
When my first book came out in 2006, he did write to me a couple times, and verified the information that I had written. One of his letters is in the 3rd edition.
Now that Emperado has died, he has taken a more active role with his own organization.
Like I said, he did not train in Tang Soo Do prior to his military service in Korea. It was just Korean martial arts, and they used the name Tang Soo Do, for lack of a better description.
I'm sure you know that many parts of the Asian culture arrived in Hawaii long before making it to the mainland. I'm not saying the actual art of Tang Soo Do was being taught in Hawaii in 1950, but it's very possible that the Korean community in Hawaii knew of the name and art. On at least 2 occasions I heard Joe Holck say that Choo was "Korean Karate-Tang Soo Do". And Holck was the one who came up with the "Kajukenbo" name. He was also Peter Choo's cousin by marriage.
This is from a biography on George Chang, which was written by Frank Ordonez:
"He contributed the "BO" in the KaJuKenBo system known as the Chinese Boxing - Gung-Fu style.
His family, friends, and co-founders know him as a refined individual, a outstanding martial artist and Korean War veteran.
At the early age of twelve, George spent a few years in his father's native land, the province of Kwangtung, prior to World War II.
While in China he got his initial start in the "hard / soft" system of Sil Lum Kung-FU (Shaolin).
He retuned to Honolulu in 1941 when Hawaii was U.S. territory and not yet a state.
Chang then furthered his Chinese style knowledge under the late Wong Kok Fut."
He stated in a video taped interview at Turtle Bay (Hi) in the early 90's, that he trained with Jhoon Rhee when he was in the Army stationed in Korea, (1953-55). He said that Jhoon Rhee was a Korean Army Officer at the time. He did not say if Rhee was his primary instructor, but he did say that he trained with him. And he said that he received black belts in Tae Kwon Do, (in Korea), Aikido (in Japan), and Shorinji Ryu Karate (in Okinawa). He may have told you different, but that's what I have on tape.
Correct. Emperado and Holck (aka: Joichi Matsuno) had boxed as teenagers. Peter Choo and Frank Ordonez both boxed on the same Army boxing team in Hawaii, that was coached by Thomas Toyama. Toyama has been called by some the "unofficial 6th founder".
The pictures that I have seen were from the late 50's at a belt test. If they are the pictures that Walter Godin had, one in particular is misidentified. The man that is said to be Choo, is actually Paul Yamaguichi. And Godin is receiving his blue belt, not black belt.
It's very well known that after the 50's, the only founder that was actively involved in Kajukenbo was Emperado. Emperado always referred to Chang as "Frank Ordonez's friend". He did not know him very well, and had no communication with him after 1950. Since the other founders were also gone, he only heard rumors about Chang. First that he was "missing in action". Then that he had died.
Between 1956 (after Woodrow McCandless died) and 1958, Ordonez did help on occasion at the Palama Settlement school. But mostly Joe Emperado, Sijo Emperado, and Pauly Soronio taught there. Choo, Chang, and Holck were in the service at various locations.
After getting out of the service, Joe Holck settled in Tucson, Arizona. He had a very illustrious career in jujitsu and judo. Emperado moved permanently to California in around 1980-81. After 1950, the 5 founders were never together as a whole group again. And after 1958, Emperado was the only founder who actively taught and propagated Kajukenbo.
Around 1988, Emperado was at a event in Tucson, Az., hosted by Vince Black. Joe Holck was also invited. In a video taped interview at the event, Holck and Emperado said that it was the first time they had seen each other in over 30 years.
Around 1990, Emperado, Holck, and Choo, were brought together for a Kajukenbo event at Turtle Bay, Hawaii. Vince Black also video taped a interview with them on that occasion.
And in June of 1996, Emperado, Choo, Holck, and Ordonez, were brought together for the annual KSDI Tournament that was held in San Jose, Ca. After that, Ordonez and Holck (Choo passed away in 97) would occasionally attend the Las Vegas KSDI tournament.
It is true that Sijo and his brother were the main ones who carried on with Kajukenbo. All the co-founders acknowledge that. And I don't know how active Professor Ordonez was in Kajukenbo past the 60's. I think when Joe Emperado passed away, Professor Ordonez lost some interest in Kajukenbo. I would disagree though that "most of the activity and seniors moved to the mainland. Many did not. Sid Ascuncion, Marino Tiwanak, etc. stayed. Kajukenbo has always had a large presence here, and still does. But Professor Ordonez and a lot of documentation in the form of photos, papers, letters, etc. all neatly kept in an album which he shows to the public, and more stuff that is more private. If I were you, I would keep trying to build a relationship with him while maintaining a respectful attitude towards him. He might end up giving you the keys to the kingdom.
I would keep trying to build something with him. I think it is worth it, given your interest in kajukenbo history. Go see for yourself and use your own judgment, which seems to be your approach so far. There might be a natural hesitation because you are from the mainland, and there have been a lot of people who some feel took advantage of Sijo and other kenpo pioneers over the years. But maintain your sincerity and things may happen. I sent GM LEE Won Kuk a christmas card for five or ten years before he sent me one back with his business card in it, asking me to contact him.
I was told Peter Choo came up with the name. Professor Holck just might be passing along that often repeated "tang soo do korean karate" thing that is out there. From my understanding, there wasn't any free flow of travel between Korea and Hawaii among korean citizens, at least not during the period from 1945-50. I will try and look into it if you want.
I think he might have been just being nice, regarding that kung fu experience. But even if Mr. Chang had kung fu knowledge, the fact remains that kung fu, while big in some branches of kajukenbo now, played a very small, if any, part in the development of original kajukenbo. You admitted that in your earlier post.
He told me that the card he had was a 1st degree, but it said guep on it, which is a kyu or color belt rank, and not black belt. I was thinking of giving him a kukkiwon dan certificate or a higher honorary degree, so he could have an official one, to tell you the truth.
It was part of that photo album that Professor Ordonez has.
ok. Perhaps the reason why Sijo referred to him as Clarence instead of George is because he didn't know him so well. Clarence is his step son's name, not Mr. Chang's.
Is that the context of the 30 years comment? If so, that clarifies things.
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