How PC are you..

[thardey]

My sign language teacher (who was deaf, but could speak) preferred the term "mute" because it was more accurate to the "American-English" language.

When I was in High School, my English teacher handed out a "PC guideline" we were supposed to follow when writing our papers. We couldn't say "Waiter or Waitress," we had to say "Female Waiter" or Waitperson. Same with Stewardess, Actress, etc.

That was most of it, it didn't talk about being "challenged" of any sort -- I think most of that is either limited to specific settings, or the stuff of jokes.

What bothered me about the "Waitress, Waiter" stuff was that I would go directly from English to Spanish class, where everything had a gender, whether it was a door, a light, or a car. I couldn't figure out why applying a female or male/neutral gender was that insulting. Left over from Patriarchy, yes, but offensive?

As far as race slang goes, I've known Mexicans who were insulted by the term "Latin-American" and vice-versa. I've known people who prefer "Black" over "African American" and vice-versa. Usually, what bothers them the most is whether I respect their wishes or not. If they don't like the term "Black" I don't use it around them. Whichever. Trying to please everybody is what makes the "PC" stuff a joke.

On the other hand, I used to refer to "That black guy" or "That Mexican guy." Now I just say "That guy." If someone doesn't know who I'm talking about then I'll describe them with a physical descripton, which may or may not include their race. But I like to separate their race from their identity, at least in the US.

Which brings up a question I've been wanting to ask of our neighbors "Across the Pond:" is "Limey" a derogatory term? Or is it like calling us a "Yank?" (That is, a nickname you're kind of proud to wear?)

 

[Sukerkin]

Well, yes, altho' not so pronounced now as was in centuries past, 'Limey' was a term of abuse and some of us would still take offense at it, depending on how it was said - me included.

On similar vein, I was once told, by a Southern (United States) gentleman, that to call a Southerner "Yank" was quite a good way to start a fight as, in certain places, the wounds caused by the Civil War still wept. Is that still so?

EDIT: Bonus credit to any non-English person who can explain where 'Limey' came from (I know some here already know but it'd be interesting to see what percentage are aware of it's historical roots).

 

[grydth]

Limes eaten on ships to prevent scurvy? (I heard the RN got very tired of sucking on lemons)

 

[Gordon Nore]

EDIT: Bonus credit to any non-English person who can explain where 'Limey' came from (I know some here already know but it'd be interesting to see what percentage are aware of it's historical roots).

British sailors put lime in the beer to prevent scurvy. Now lime cordial is often used -- as in, "I'll take a lager and lime, barman."

In my barkeep days, occasionally I was asked for a shandy. Originally, I believe that was made with lemonade and lager. Now, it's common to use 7Up, Sprite, or Ginger Ale.

 

[Gordon Nore]

British sailors put lime in the beer to prevent scurvy. Now lime cordial is often used -- as in, "I'll take a lager and lime, barman."

In my barkeep days, occasionally I was asked for a shandy. Originally, I believe that was made with lemonade and lager. Now, it's common to use 7Up, Sprite, or Ginger Ale.

Post Script: I'll never forget the time I was asked if we served Chip Butties. Anyone?

 

[myusername]

I personally wouldn't find being called a Limey offensive as being a mental health nurse and drug worker I have been called much worse things by my patients! As with all of these things it depends on the delivery, tone and motivation for using the term that makes the difference between it being an affectionate, tongue in cheek nickname or an insult.

 

[zeeberex]

So just how PC are you really?? Do you use the word challenged alot aka someone who is blind is visually challlenged or do you say blind?? You get my drift..I am not PC as much as I should be...I have been known to get into peoples faces when they refer to someone who cannot speak or hear as deaf and dumb, that REALLY honks me off..So where do you draw the line???

deliberate hateful redneck level ignorance is grounds for a beating

 

[myusername]

Post Script: I'll never forget the time I was asked if we served Chip Butties. Anyone?

Could I bum a fag off you as well?

 

[Tez3]

Well, yes, altho' not so pronounced now as was in centuries past, 'Limey' was a term of abuse and some of us would still take offense at it, depending on how it was said - me included.

On similar vein, I was once told, by a Southern (United States) gentleman, that to call a Southerner "Yank" was quite a good way to start a fight as, in certain places, the wounds caused by the Civil War still wept. Is that still so?

EDIT: Bonus credit to any non-English person who can explain where 'Limey' came from (I know some here already know but it'd be interesting to see what percentage are aware of it's historical roots).

Yep!
Perhaps the strange thing to Americans is that to us whatever the colour or race you may designate yourselves as, to us regardless you are all 'Yanks', white/ black/African-American/Hispanic? nah Yanks all, lol!
I remember an old lady telling me that during the war when the Americans arrived the white Americans were more than a little horrified at the locals treating them and the black soldiers exactly the same, they either liked Americans or they didn't but they were all just Americans to them. it was also during the war that being called limey as an insult was at it's worst I believe. As with the Aussies calling us Poms. Of course the Aussies had their moments too with the Yanks lol. The infamous Battle of Brisbane, a two day 'war' between American soldiers and the Diggers! One war correspondent described it as the most ferocious fighting he'd seen in the war!

 

[grydth]

I agree with most of you. Words and labels have power. Death Tax is much more offensive than Estate Tax, because of the connotations involved. Everyone dies while the word "Estate" tends to connote wealth. So, when conservatives want to get poor people behind ending the Estate Tax, they imply that it disadvantages everyone.

There are tons of examples of this in politics, and that's where I think people often lose the concept. It's "Political" correctness because it's political, and once again, used to persuade people to an agenda, often using specious logic.

Grydth, I think it's interesting that you chose to use the word "fascist." Liberals and the left are often accused by conservatives of wielding political correctness as a weapon, but I agree with you that this is often a right-wing tactic. Hopefully, with a new president in the white house, we can move away from this era of fascism in our government.

I've got about as much use for the loony left as I do for the extreme right, which is zero. Don't need either one telling me what to say or believe. I voted for President Obama because I feel he will go beyond mere words, that he can unify this country. His oratory is, indeed, magnificent.... but I believe there is so much more to this man.

 

[Gordon Nore]

Could I bum a fag off you as well?

:lfao:

 

[Gordon Nore]

When I was in High School, my English teacher handed out a "PC guideline" we were supposed to follow when writing our papers. We couldn't say "Waiter or Waitress," we had to say "Female Waiter" or Waitperson. Same with Stewardess, Actress, etc.

Now that does bother me. Did the teacher actually call it a "PC guideline." We're getting into Carlin's issue of context here. One can't simply expunge words from the language.

What if you're writing creatively -- you need access all words to convey the sensibilities of real characters and to tell a real story. I've had to defend (still) the presence of "Go Ask Alice" in my middle school library. "There's a lot of swear words," I've been told. "Of course there are," I say, "This is a deeply disturbed youngster, addicted to drugs, living on the street. What's she going to say? Fiddlesticks?"

Case in point: One of my favourite films growing up was To Kill a Mockingbird. The book was actually studied in Ontario high schools, and it's a fine example of American literature. A powerful scene for me is when Atticus is confronted by the father of an alleged rape victim and called a "N Lover." I watched the film again on late-night television (this was in the seventies), but they had bleeped out the word ******.

I've discussed this with students many times. Although the word may be despised, it has a place historically, socially and journalistically. It was during the OJ trials, I think, (the first time around) that this bizarre phrase, "The 'N' Word" seemed to take hold. They'd play audio clips of people actually speaking, and bleep out the word. For whom is this being done?

Like Carlin said, we need to get away from the idea that there good and bad words. We need to understand context.

 

[Tez3]

Now that does bother me. Did the teacher actually call it a "PC guideline." We're getting into Carlin's issue of context here. One can't simply expunge words from the language.

What if you're writing creatively -- you need access all words to convey the sensibilities of real characters and to tell a real story. I've had to defend (still) the presence of "Go Ask Alice" in my middle school library. "There's a lot of swear words," I've been told. "Of course there are," I say, "This is a deeply disturbed youngster, addicted to drugs, living on the street. What's she going to say? Fiddlesticks?"

Case in point: One of my favourite films growing up was To Kill a Mockingbird. The book was actually studied in Ontario high schools, and it's a fine example of American literature. A powerful scene for me is when Atticus is confronted by the father of an alleged rape victim and called a "N Lover." I watched the film again on late-night television (this was in the seventies), but they had bleeped out the word ******.

I've discussed this with students many times. Although the word may be despised, it has a place historically, socially and journalistically. It was during the OJ trials, I think, (the first time around) that this bizarre phrase, "The 'N' Word" seemed to take hold. They'd play audio clips of people actually speaking, and bleep out the word. For whom is this being done?

Like Carlin said, we need to get away from the idea that there good and bad words. We need to understand context.

Bleeping it out is a mistake, how can you understand how wrong it is to use words like that unless you know why? This book gives the words a context and shows how hateful it is, that it should be despised. Constantly bleeping the words out lessens the impact, you should be shocked when you hear words like this not just sit there complacently listening to bleeps!

 

[Gordon Nore]

Bleeping it out is a mistake, how can you understand how wrong it is to use words like that unless you know why? This book gives the words a context and shows how hateful it is, that it should be despised. Constantly bleeping the words out lessens the impact, you should be shocked when you hear words like this not just sit there complacently listening to bleeps!

Speaking specifically of the OJ trial, there was a level of absurdity in seeing newscasters, as well as participants in the courtroom, using the phrase, "'N' word." If it was said, it was said. Yet the actual unadorned version is staple of some comedy and popular music. On the one hand, it's ok to use it for entertainment, but people must never talk about the word as it occurs in real life.

 

[MA-Caver]

Tez is right that bleeping out the word is a mistake... also kinda hypocritical since that 12 hour mini-series "Roots" had the word ****** four or five dozen times over. It was used in historical context there... why wouldn't it be used in historical context in this fine film? Same with "A Time To Kill" (another powerful anti-racist movie) and "American History X" which used ****** in it's dialogue. True these two stories (and several others) are NOT history but irregardless they did reflect attitudes and mores of the people involved.
Still the infamous "N-word" is a racial epithet and by and large has been used as a racial slur. It's still a mystery as to why those who are most offended by the word tend to use it in reference to themselves.

We've become a societies of thin skinned people. Easily offended. Why? Well, because those who brought their offenses to courts, won. Therefore don't use those labels because you might get sued.

As I said on another thread ... about those who take umbrage against those who use their rights to interact or not with whomever they please... spoiled brats!

Many of the original words that are now PIC's (politically incorrect) are simply truths; blind, deaf, crippled, retarded, idiot savants (now called Autistic although one could pick apart the differences between the two... it's in generalities that I speak here check: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiot_savant) and so on... simply truth of the matters... while some PC words do afford dignity to those they apply to (and rightly so) ... the originals aren't really derogatory... are they? And the people they describe ... aren't any less human than we are ... right?

 

[Sukerkin]

I think this is where we are getting into the real, corrosive, nature of censorship.

Even if it is self-imposed because of social pressure, censorship, in the end, is deleterious. The person who would rather call someone of African derivation a "******" but instead uses "Coloured" or "Black", for social acceptance, has not changed their attitudes. Indeed, they have probably been hardened even further into the negative because they can't say what they think (however unpleasant most of us might find their words to be).

I do concur that words, particularly labels, have power and that 'outlawing' some can have a superficial effect that makes things look better but in the end it is a self-defeating tactic. It does not often remove the underlying feelings, just the expression of them and in the end the negative pressure builds to explosive levels.

That's what is starting to happen here in Britain with the "Immigrant problem".

Common sense or statistics notwithstanding, the ordinary person in the street is now starting to hold the opinion that cheap immigrant labour is a big part of our economic woes. Regardless of the 'truth' or otherwise of that, the fact that it is not acceptable by the establishment to talk or moan about the Polacks, Irish, Blacks, Paki's et al in even an economic sense is welding shut the necessary social safety valve to keep things a below danger level.

At the same time, the immigrant population are perfectly free to publically 'expose' the prejudice against themselves and criticise the indiginous population for daring to even think anything detrimental about them.

That is just the sort of wrong-headed legislative thinking that drives wedges between social groupings that have been working towards a working accomodation for decades. In even the past coupe of decades I have seen it change. Whilst there were some dyed-in-the-wool true racists in the population of the city I lived in, most of us got along fine whether we were English, Irish, Scots, Indian, Pakistani, African, Jamaican, Chinese and so on.

Now it is terrible, with the children being the worst because they have not yet learned to keep their mouths shut. I was in a Chinese take-away the other night and a bunch of local 'urchins' burst in the door, harranged the staff with all kinds of abuse that I shall not repeat here and then ran off. I was mortified with embarassment that people of my 'race' could behave that way and didn't know what to say to the poor girls behind the counter - "Does that happen often?" I asked. "Several times a day" they replied. I left feeling ashamed and guilty, as if it was any doing of mine. The flip side is that just across the road is a Turkish restaurant where I have learned, thanks to a friend who speaks the language, that the staff continually abuse and insult the diners (particularly the women) and get away with it because noone understands and they smile whilst they do it.

The particular thing that stands out is that it seems that it is only persons of English or American lineage that are cursed by this 'disease' of Political Correctness (and to some extent Germans with regard to Jews). From my contact with people of other European and Asian nations, it does not seem that they 'gag the throats of their own' in this fashion. Or is my personal experience insular and this is prevelent in other nationalities too?

 

[jks9199]

Well, yes, altho' not so pronounced now as was in centuries past, 'Limey' was a term of abuse and some of us would still take offense at it, depending on how it was said - me included.

On similar vein, I was once told, by a Southern (United States) gentleman, that to call a Southerner "Yank" was quite a good way to start a fight as, in certain places, the wounds caused by the Civil War still wept. Is that still so?

EDIT: Bonus credit to any non-English person who can explain where 'Limey' came from (I know some here already know but it'd be interesting to see what percentage are aware of it's historical roots).

So as not to give the answer completely away... I'll note simply that it's nautical, and has to do with Vitamin C.

Of course, had I read on before replying... I'd know that others had already answered! :shrug:

 

[Steve]

I've got about as much use for the loony left as I do for the extreme right, which is zero. Don't need either one telling me what to say or believe. I voted for President Obama because I feel he will go beyond mere words, that he can unify this country. His oratory is, indeed, magnificent.... but I believe there is so much more to this man.

Sounds reasonable. I was speaking to your use of the term "fascist" which refers to the extreme right wing political philosophy, as socialism refers to the leftist extreme. In this case, I just think it's interesting that PC is often a term used to describe the extreme left by the right, but as you said, often as not is the tool of an extreme right wing agenda.

 

[MA-Caver]

I think this is where we are getting into the real, corrosive, nature of censorship.

Even if it is self-imposed because of social pressure, censorship, in the end, is deleterious. The person who would rather call someone of African derivation a "******" but instead uses "Coloured" or "Black", for social acceptance, has not changed their attitudes. Indeed, they have probably been hardened even further into the negative because they can't say what they think (however unpleasant most of us might find their words to be).

I do concur that words, particularly labels, have power and that 'outlawing' some can have a superficial effect that makes things look better but in the end it is a self-defeating tactic. It does not often remove the underlying feelings, just the expression of them and in the end the negative pressure builds to explosive levels.

That's what is starting to happen here in Britain with the "Immigrant problem".

Common sense or statistics notwithstanding, the ordinary person in the street is now starting to hold the opinion that cheap immigrant labour is a big part of our economic woes. Regardless of the 'truth' or otherwise of that, the fact that it is not acceptable by the establishment to talk or moan about the Polacks, Irish, Blacks, Paki's et al in even an economic sense is welding shut the necessary social safety valve to keep things a below danger level.

At the same time, the immigrant population are perfectly free to publically 'expose' the prejudice against themselves and criticise the indiginous population for daring to even think anything detrimental about them.

That is just the sort of wrong-headed legislative thinking that drives wedges between social groupings that have been working towards a working accomodation for decades. In even the past coupe of decades I have seen it change. Whilst there were some dyed-in-the-wool true racists in the population of the city I lived in, most of us got along fine whether we were English, Irish, Scots, Indian, Pakistani, African, Jamaican, Chinese and so on.

Now it is terrible, with the children being the worst because they have not yet learned to keep their mouths shut. I was in a Chinese take-away the other night and a bunch of local 'urchins' burst in the door, harranged the staff with all kinds of abuse that I shall not repeat here and then ran off. I was mortified with embarassment that people of my 'race' could behave that way and didn't know what to say to the poor girls behind the counter - "Does that happen often?" I asked. "Several times a day" they replied. I left feeling ashamed and guilty, as if it was any doing of mine. The flip side is that just across the road is a Turkish restaurant where I have learned, thanks to a friend who speaks the language, that the staff continually abuse and insult the diners (particularly the women) and get away with it because no one understands and they smile whilst they do it.

The particular thing that stands out is that it seems that it is only persons of English or American lineage that are cursed by this 'disease' of Political Correctness (and to some extent Germans with regard to Jews). From my contact with people of other European and Asian nations, it does not seem that they 'gag the throats of their own' in this fashion. Or is my personal experience insular and this is prevalent in other nationalities too?

Well, that's the whole point isn't it... the kids. Learning from their fathers/older brothers to "hate the race". Years of listening to the fixed opinions/beliefs of or a tirade of hatred against this or that people and the kid grows up believing that... until of course sometimes... they have a life changing event that alters that skewed perception.
I still believe that change can come... but not from those hardwired already to be racist deep down inside themselves, forget what you see on the surface... all the world's a stage right? But until we teach our children how NOT to hate, how to look beyond the color of a man's skin or the shape of his eyes or the God that he chooses to worship or anything else that is prejudiced against ... it's always going to be there.
As long as it's there we're going to find new words to soften the blow of the truth of who/what they are.
Funny thing is... truth is relative.

 

[Gordon Nore]

I've been reflecting on language changes pertaining to disabled people. Carlin argues that the word, "cripple," has no derogatory connotation. He may be right in that, but I think it's socially limiting. When I think of the word "crippled" from childhood, I perceive someone who is the recipient of charity or sympathy. My mother used to make donations to a group called "Crippled Civilians." http://www.goodwill.on.ca/2006_wherewecamefrom.html The word, "crippled," also reminds me of Tiny Tim from A Christmas Carol, whose survival depends on an act of charity.

Back in the days, "crippled" people had limited expectations of employment and participation in daily life. I remember hearing John Howard Griffin (author of Black Like Me) speaking in Toronto when I was in high school. He talked about an earlier time in his life when he was temporarily blind. He happened to be sitting in a park, overhearing a conversation about him. (He joked that blind people are sometimes confused for deaf.) The cut and thrust of the conversation that he should be out in public because his presence was upsetting to others.

The shift from "crippled" to "disabled," rather than being politically correct, I suspect, was a conscious effort to alter public thinking and open up our imaginations a little. It's very hard to look at images of Terry Fox or Rick Hansen and think of them as crippled.

Now, I agree that "differently-abled" and "handicapable" are two of dumbest things I've ever heard. The polysylabism of those terms makes them absolutely bloodless. Pure jargon.

I worked in a literacy agency in the eighties that also advocated for disabled people, and nobody talked that way. However, one of our meeting rooms in the rear of the building faced the lobby of a very expensive condominium complex. The managers of that building asked us to draw our blinds, just in case the wheel chairs upset their residents and visitors.