How often do you use the more fancier Kicks?

[Kenlee25]

What type of sparring do you use? I ask because you said you try to keep sparring as realistic as possible. In my opinion if you were to design a ruleset for sparring which looks as far from a realistic altercation as is humanly possible you would come up with wtf ruleset. Rarely in a realistic fight will you see kicks (particularly above waist height), rarely in a real fight will there not be at least 1 head punch within 2 seconds of the fight starting, rarely will you see two guys standing 4 feet from each other, rarely will a spin kick work in a real situation (even less likely will it be 'rewarded') etc. Dont get me wrong, where I train we use many different types of sparring and I find the olympic ruleset a lot of fun, but realistic, no way.

ummmm we don't spar WTF style...where did I say I did? our sparring is akin to any other sparring you would see in a martial arts class. Head gear and gloves, Free sparring for one - two minutes. Use whatever techniques except for elbows, knees, and grappling. Most of the students use more punches than kicks, and most don't use the spin kicks. I know one that does a lot, and It never works very well. Everyone in our class keeps their hands up and actively has to block both punches and kicks. My master will even get angry at us when she sees someone not fighting with their hands up or not applying proper footwork.

I said I treat it realistically...as In I usually only throw moves that I would use on the street, so in sparring that mainly equates to front kicks to the gut ( to simulate groin ) Round kicks ( no higher than waist, but I'll sometimes throw a headkick just for fun ) and side kicks. Otherwise just punches, hammer fists, palm strikes, etc etc. I stand like I would on the street, I'm aggressive, I put power into my blows and I don't make any unnecessary movements. I parry blows into my own strikes, and quite often I've been complimented on my ability to slip right throw my opponent's guard.

The only rules we have are the ones I have mentioned and obviously don't flat our fight each other.

However I do see your point in the rules. Sparring can only go so far. That's why I said i treat is as realistic as POSSIBLE. I didn't say it would ever be realistic. If it were up to me, I'd have full contact sparring with everything ( literally everything except maybe elbows ) available to be used as long as they are with control ( so a light tap to the groin etc ) but most arts will not do that. The only one's I know that do are Jeet Kune Do and Krav Maga.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

ummmm we don't spar WTF style...where did I say I did? our sparring is akin to any other sparring you would see in a martial arts class. Head gear and gloves, Free sparring for one - two minutes. Use whatever techniques except for elbows, knees, and grappling. Most of the students use more punches than kicks, and most don't use the spin kicks. I know one that does a lot, and It never works very well. Everyone in our class keeps their hands up and actively has to block both punches and kicks. My master will even get angry at us when she sees someone not fighting with their hands up or not applying proper footwork.

I said I treat it realistically...as In I usually only throw moves that I would use on the street, so in sparring that mainly equates to front kicks to the gut ( to simulate groin ) Round kicks ( no higher than waist, but I'll sometimes throw a headkick just for fun ) and side kicks. Otherwise just punches, hammer fists, palm strikes, etc etc. I stand like I would on the street, I'm aggressive, I put power into my blows and I don't make any unnecessary movements. I parry blows into my own strikes, and quite often I've been complimented on my ability to slip right throw my opponent's guard.

The only rules we have are the ones I have mentioned and obviously don't flat our fight each other.

However I do see your point in the rules. Sparring can only go so far. That's why I said i treat is as realistic as POSSIBLE. I didn't say it would ever be realistic. If it were up to me, I'd have full contact sparring with everything ( literally everything except maybe elbows ) available to be used as long as they are with control ( so a light tap to the groin etc ) but most arts will not do that. The only one's I know that do are Jeet Kune Do and Krav Maga.

I had no idea what sort of sparring you did, thats why the first line of my post was "what type of sparring do you use?". Your sparring sounds very similar to ours. If we drop our guard we get push ups, and lots of them.

 

[StudentCarl]

whatever you are smoking, you need to cut back if you think hippy hoppy hands down roundkicks over and over and over are self defense practical.....

I think you're oversimplifying on purpose, which is a shame because it reduces the quality of the discussion. You don't have to hop like a bunny to have good motion and movement, and quickness and agility are at the heart of shihap kyorugi. You already know that hand position is relative to the threat, and hands down fits fine if you're outside even kicking range. Having had ribs cracked through a hogu, I'm not as quick to dismiss that round kick as you are.

Not everything in a sport has to be directly self-defense practical to have value, just like you don't see arae makki in ap koobi used often either...doesn't mean it lacks value.

 

[StudentCarl]

ummmm we don't spar WTF style...where did I say I did? our sparring is akin to any other sparring you would see in a martial arts class. Head gear and gloves, Free sparring for one - two minutes. Use whatever techniques except for elbows, knees, and grappling. Most of the students use more punches than kicks, and most don't use the spin kicks. I know one that does a lot, and It never works very well. Everyone in our class keeps their hands up and actively has to block both punches and kicks. My master will even get angry at us when she sees someone not fighting with their hands up or not applying proper footwork.

I said I treat it realistically...as In I usually only throw moves that I would use on the street, so in sparring that mainly equates to front kicks to the gut ( to simulate groin ) Round kicks ( no higher than waist, but I'll sometimes throw a headkick just for fun ) and side kicks. Otherwise just punches, hammer fists, palm strikes, etc etc. I stand like I would on the street, I'm aggressive, I put power into my blows and I don't make any unnecessary movements. I parry blows into my own strikes, and quite often I've been complimented on my ability to slip right throw my opponent's guard.

The only rules we have are the ones I have mentioned and obviously don't flat our fight each other.

However I do see your point in the rules. Sparring can only go so far. That's why I said i treat is as realistic as POSSIBLE. I didn't say it would ever be realistic. If it were up to me, I'd have full contact sparring with everything ( literally everything except maybe elbows ) available to be used as long as they are with control ( so a light tap to the groin etc ) but most arts will not do that. The only one's I know that do are Jeet Kune Do and Krav Maga.

Do you allow kicks to knees and thigh? How about sweeps? I'm finding that my technique selection has most to do with my range and position. Allowing traps and sweeps along with punches to the head is good. I hope you do still get to train elbows and knees on bags; I love 'em.

 

[Gorilla]

In today's current enviroment punching does score if you know how to punch. If the punch is powerful executed with proper technique it will score. I probably watch as many as 1000 matches per year at all level from local to high end international opens and punching is scored frequently.

Our recent set of Olympians do not punch frequently but that is their strategy.

I may be biased because we practice Shotokan and are good punchers who know how to use that weapon.

 

[Kenlee25]

Do you allow kicks to knees and thigh? How about sweeps? I'm finding that my technique selection has most to do with my range and position. Allowing traps and sweeps along with punches to the head is good. I hope you do still get to train elbows and knees on bags; I love 'em.

Unfortunately no kicks to legs :/ although we sometime sneak them anyway. Sweeps, not in regular sparring, but when I spar with one of my instructors we went all out, sweeping and even wrestling on the ground...he always won...but still. So I know how to use sweeps, and I even practice them on some my martial arts friends.

We use punches to the head as well. You just can directly full contact jab someone in the face.

I train elbows and knees on bags and basically whatever objects I can find around the house haha. Also we go over the fine points of how to use them. Knees specifically. Where to grab etc etc.

 

[Twin Fist]

it IS simple

if anyone thinks that wtf style sparring is good for self defense, i submit that they have never been in a real fight.

 

[leadleg]

you're quite right. I dont believe any ruleset Ive seen is close to real fighting, some come closer than others obviously. But seriously, close your eyes and picture a streetfight in all its glory, then imagine two guys sparring wtf style and they are not even remotely similar.

Seriously, how do you picture a street fight "in all its glory", are you saying that training to control emotion, timing, distance, adrenalin rush....etc. has no value in training for self defense. How about getting hit hard, or getting out of the way or counter striking....nothing you need? Mebe you are so well trained that none of this could be of any help to you, then what about for a novice, no help there either? Or have you seen "scores "of fights where "heaps" of olympic fighters are beat down by "thousands" of real martial artists.

 

[ATC]

I think that if you narrow-mindedly dismiss any style of art you will not be properly prepared for it when it comes. Those that dismiss high or what they call flashy kicks would not be in any position to defend against any such kick once faced against it. Ask the two guys that use to do that show the where they went all over the world competing against different martial arts styles. The only style that both got rock in badly, (one got KO'd, and the other just flat out quit) was Olympic TKD. Neither knew what to do against someone that really knew what they were doing. These guys fought the some of the best in every style and held their own vs. each, except Olympic TKD.

Just because you can't do something does not mean it would not work or cannot work. You just can't make it work. I have a boxing background, TangSooDo background and TKD background and I have seen good punchers, kicker, and some good at both. I had an old master that once told me that if pitted against a good puncher he would use his feet, and if pitted against a good kicker he would use his hands. The lesson being that punchers tend to know what to do vs. other punchers as they train for that and kickers know what to do vs. kickers because they train for that. So again I say don't dismiss what you don't or can't do, many can make what you can't work, indeed work.

99% of all martial artist suck. 99% of all martial artist don't really train. The 1% in any art that do train, would rather easily destroy all of the 99% in any other art. So all this talk is just that, talk. Because just about everyone on this board falls in the 99%, and if pitted againt any actual WTF Olympic fighter would get owned in about 3 seconds. That also goes for any other world class fighter in any other style also. We would all get owned by any other styles at the world class level, regardless of what we practice.

 

[Twin Fist]

it might be the best way to fight in that sport, but it is friggin stupid for self defense.

all the fan boy love on the planet wont change that simple FACT

 

[ATC]

it might be the best way to fight in that sport, but it is friggin stupid for self defense.

All the fan boy love on the planet wont change that simple fact

opinion.

 

[miguksaram]

it might be the best way to fight in that sport, but it is friggin stupid for self defense.

all the fan boy love on the planet wont change that simple FACT

It is not a fact. Why? Because it all boils down to the fighter. Are you saying Thai boxers could not use a nice high kick and knock someone out in the street?

This is not to say that anyone can do it. I am saying that there are those who can.

 

[Kenlee25]

I think that if you narrow-mindedly dismiss any style of art you will not be properly prepared for it when it comes. Those that dismiss high or what they call flashy kicks would not be in any position to defend against any such kick once faced against it. Ask the two guys that use to do that show the where they went all over the world competing against different martial arts styles. The only style that both got rock in badly, (one got KO'd, and the other just flat out quit) was Olympic TKD. Neither knew what to do against someone that really knew what they were doing. These guys fought the some of the best in every style and held their own vs. each, except Olympic TKD.

The show you are referring to is called Human Weapon. I've seen all of the episodes on youtube. I Highly recommend everyone watch the show.

HOWEVER

To be fair in the TKD match there was a rule of no punches to the face, which the bigger guy ( the one who got rocked ) could have used to make the fight go more in his favor. The smaller one did not just "quit" He tried to do a tornado kick, and since he had only had a few weeks of Taekwondo training, could not perform it properly and sprained his ankle by landing wrong.

Your point still stands, but I just wanted to clear that up.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I think that if you narrow-mindedly dismiss any style of art you will not be properly prepared for it when it comes. Those that dismiss high or what they call flashy kicks would not be in any position to defend against any such kick once faced against it. Ask the two guys that use to do that show the where they went all over the world competing against different martial arts styles. The only style that both got rock in badly, (one got KO'd, and the other just flat out quit) was Olympic TKD. Neither knew what to do against someone that really knew what they were doing. These guys fought the some of the best in every style and held their own vs. each, except Olympic TKD.

The show you are referring to is called Human Weapon. I've seen all of the episodes on youtube. I Highly recommend everyone watch the show.

HOWEVER

To be fair in the TKD match there was a rule of no punches to the face, which the bigger guy ( the one who got rocked ) could have used to make the fight go more in his favor. The smaller one did not just "quit" He tried to do a tornado kick, and since he had only had a few weeks of Taekwondo training, could not perform it properly and sprained his ankle by landing wrong.

Your point still stands, but I just wanted to clear that up.

Bill duff would have killed that guy if not for the ruleset. If for no other reason than he is 120kg and that little korean guy was about 60kg ringing wet. Bill duff would have just jumped on top of him . The other guy attempted a tornado kick after 1 weeks training which is just silly against someone experienced.

 

[Twin Fist]

and i absolutely agree that SOME can

can most?

no

why?

the style of fighting leaves the person WIDE OPEN which is fine for the rule set in question since it limits what can be done to you

when there are no limits to what can be used against you, leaving yourself wide open is STUPID

that is a fact

It is not a fact. Why? Because it all boils down to the fighter. Are you saying Thai boxers could not use a nice high kick and knock someone out in the street?

This is not to say that anyone can do it. I am saying that there are those who can.

 

[mastercole]

I think that if you narrow-mindedly dismiss any style of art you will not be properly prepared for it when it comes. Those that dismiss high or what they call flashy kicks would not be in any position to defend against any such kick once faced against it. Ask the two guys that use to do that show the where they went all over the world competing against different martial arts styles. The only style that both got rock in badly, (one got KO'd, and the other just flat out quit) was Olympic TKD. Neither knew what to do against someone that really knew what they were doing. These guys fought the some of the best in every style and held their own vs. each, except Olympic TKD.

Just because you can't do something does not mean it would not work or cannot work. You just can't make it work. I have a boxing background, TangSooDo background and TKD background and I have seen good punchers, kicker, and some good at both. I had an old master that once told me that if pitted against a good puncher he would use his feet, and if pitted against a good kicker he would use his hands. The lesson being that punchers tend to know what to do vs. other punchers as they train for that and kickers know what to do vs. kickers because they train for that. So again I say don't dismiss what you don't or can't do, many can make what you can't work, indeed work.

99% of all martial artist suck. 99% of all martial artist don't really train. The 1% in any art that do train, would rather easily destroy all of the 99% in any other art. So all this talk is just that, talk. Because just about everyone on this board falls in the 99%, and if pitted againt any actual WTF Olympic fighter would get owned in about 3 seconds. That also goes for any other world class fighter in any other style also. We would all get owned by any other styles at the world class level, regardless of what we practice.

I have nothing to add to your excellent post. It's obvious that you know exactly what you are talking about.

 

[mastercole]

Seriously, how do you picture a street fight "in all its glory", are you saying that training to control emotion, timing, distance, adrenalin rush....etc. has no value in training for self defense. How about getting hit hard, or getting out of the way or counter striking....nothing you need? Mebe you are so well trained that none of this could be of any help to you, then what about for a novice, no help there either? Or have you seen "scores "of fights where "heaps" of olympic fighters are beat down by "thousands" of real martial artists.

LOL. I always say, if a person does not fight full contact A LOT, they will never develop these skills, much less understand them. It can be like trying to explain Rome to someone who has never been there.

 

[mastercole]

It is not a fact. Why? Because it all boils down to the fighter. Are you saying Thai boxers could not use a nice high kick and knock someone out in the street?

This is not to say that anyone can do it. I am saying that there are those who can.

You are right Jeremy, there are those that can and do. And then there are those who can't

 

[ATC]

Bill duff would have killed that guy if not for the ruleset. If for no other reason than he is 120kg and that little korean guy was about 60kg ringing wet. Bill duff would have just jumped on top of him . The other guy attempted a tornado kick after 1 weeks training which is just silly against someone experienced.

Again you are making assumptions based on what you perceive to be the only advantages in your eyes. They fought with a rule set yes. But that does not mean that the TKD guy only knows kicks. So if allowed to use other rule sets we know that the TKD guy can kick high and that Bill cannot. We also know that the TKD guy being more skilled at kicking in general can kick harder than Bill simply becasue he can kick faster and with better form. We also know that the TKD guy is faster than Bill. We don't know what else the TKD guy can do but since he can do the so called flashy stuff, I will make the assumption that he can do a lot more also.

Hardest hit I ever had given to me was by a guy that only weighed 130 pounds. His technique was as perfect as I will ever know and his speed, accuracy and timing was lightning fast and dead on. Every time he hit me I felt like trowing up. My skin was ripped under my arm pads from trying to block his kicks. We know nothing about what would have happened if the rules would have allowed punching.

 

[Twin Fist]

now you are just denying reality