How often do you use the more fancier Kicks?

[mastercole]

Originally Posted by ralphmcpherson
The average black belt training a couple of nights a week at the local dojo throwing headkicks in a real situation is a vastly different story. A very small % of all tkdoin are elite. The bottom line is anything 'could' work in a real fight, its just that different things have different chances of actually working on a regular basis, and anyone who thinks head kicks are a high percentage technique for the real world really needs to go and talk with some people who deal with 'real' altercations on a daily basis.

Yes you've seen tons of street fights and have numerous sources of altercation data, but you didn' t answer my basic question. How many taekwondoin, even your average blackbelt who trains twice a week, have you seen in a street fight? Of all the altercations that your police buddies talk about in your dojang, how many involved experienced blackbelts from any martial art?

Amazing. Historical. I don't think such a study have ever been conducted before. How would one go about such a study? Maybe pre-street fight interview and post street fight interview? I mean you have to find out somehow what their martial art style was, or what their skill level is. Or maybe they had on their uniform with Taekwondo written on the back, and big gold bars on their belts. That would make it much easier I think. Making out a statistical study sheet ahead of time and marking down all the intricacies of each street fight might be necessary? Of course one would have to live in a place, or travel to a place where street fights between brawlers and Taekwondoin took place almost daily. To find - or happen upon such a place must have been difficult, or maybe just sheer luck. To bad those witnessing the street fights between brawlers and Taekwondoin all forgot to bring their cell phones to each and every street fight, each and every time, or maybe only one person showed up to witness these tons of matches and did not own a cell phone. Otherwise we could all be watching ton's of these street fights on Youtube. It could have turn the Taekwondo world upside down

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Yes you've seen tons of street fights and have numerous sources of altercation data, but you didn' t answer my basic question. How many taekwondoin, even your average blackbelt who trains twice a week, have you seen in a street fight? Of all the altercations that your police buddies talk about in your dojang, how many involved experienced blackbelts from any martial art?

Heaps of good stories come from the police I train with about trained martial artists getting into altercations. Some of them are quite funny actually, in most of them the martial artist wins and wins easily, and then gets arrested lol. They dont win by throwing headkicks though. Ive been out a few times with tkd black belts who have been in fights, they usually win, but again, no head kicks. Do yourself a favour, go to a police training centre or a reality based MA club and explain to them how well you believe head kicks work in a real fight. You continue believing your fancy head kicks will save you from the bad guy, I just hope for your sake you never have to test the theory.

 

[seasoned]

Lets see how often would I use a fancy kick, here is my answer the same amount of time I need to use self defense. Not that often it is just fun to be able to do them..

This my friend is why I like your posts, original............. And funny.

 

[Archtkd]

Heaps of good stories come from the police I train with about trained martial artists getting into altercations. Some of them are quite funny actually, in most of them the martial artist wins and wins easily, and then gets arrested lol. They dont win by throwing headkicks though. Ive been out a few times with tkd black belts who have been in fights, they usually win, but again, no head kicks. Do yourself a favour, go to a police training centre or a reality based MA club and explain to them how well you believe head kicks work in a real fight. You continue believing your fancy head kicks will save you from the bad guy, I just hope for your sake you never have to test the theory.

Thanks. The advise you've given me about visiting cop training centers and "reality" based MA clubs is very interesting. I now get a better understanding of how you make assumptions and conclusions about things. Keep preparing for the inevitable street fight you are going to get involved in because the anecdotal data you have gathered indicates you live in a hostile place where there are heaps of fights involving trained martial artists and street thugs. Did the police ever ask the tons of martial artists who engage in street fights why they never threw head kicks?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Thanks. The advise you've given me about visiting cop training centers and "reality" based MA clubs is very interesting. I now get a better understanding of how you make assumptions and conclusions about things. Keep preparing for the inevitable street fight you are going to get involved in because the anecdotal data you have gathered indicates you live in a hostile place where there are heaps of fights involving trained martial artists and street thugs. Did the police ever ask the tons of martial artists who engage in street fights why they never threw head kicks?

I certainly dont live in a hostile place. I was a proffessional musician for years and my job was playing clubs and pubs 6 nights a week, often not coming on stage until after midnight. You spend that much time in pubs and clubs and you will see a lot of fights, its just the nature of combining young males and alcohol unfortunately. Again, if I want advice on an art, or a technique, or poomsae or sparring etc this is the place to come, however if I require advice on violent altercations I will take the advice of experienced police officers over people's opinions on a martial arts board.

 

[Instructor]

An actual somebody is trying to kill you fight is messy and unpredictable. For me at least high kicking is just something where the risks outweigh the rewards. I can kick high and I enjoy doing it, it's fun, but if somebody is trying to kill me....I keep it simple and get the job of staying alive done as quickly as possible.

For the record I was an Air Force Security Policeman for four years. We had the benefit of our sidearm and most of our police training focused on using that.

 

[seasoned]

I think it is age related. At a certain age, it is just too much work. This is the way it was meant to be, older means tighter means lower kicks means better self defense. Of course at my age it makes perfect sense, to me.

 

[mastercole]

I certainly dont live in a hostile place. I was a proffessional musician for years and my job was playing clubs and pubs 6 nights a week, often not coming on stage until after midnight. You spend that much time in pubs and clubs and you will see a lot of fights, its just the nature of combining young males and alcohol unfortunately. Again, if I want advice on an art, or a technique, or poomsae or sparring etc this is the place to come, however if I require advice on violent altercations I will take the advice of experienced police officers over people's opinions on a martial arts board.

I would never ask a police officer any advise related to physical self defense, and I would not recommend anyone to seek out self defense advise from a police officer. They function under very different rules, criminals and general populations react very differently with officers than they do with civilians. I have seen much better advise from a few posters on MT.

I guess I am different in that I do live in a dangerous place and have all my life. I know violence, danger, fear, etc. up close and personal, and have all my life. So it ends up the other way around. For years, the City of Cleveland (USA) comes to me for self defense training of it's new cadets who will be dealing with criminals in the streets of one of America's most dangerous cities. According to what they tell me, the things they have learned from me and my crew has saved their lives, and the lives of others.

[/IMG]

That's me in the yellow shirt at my school in Cleveland, opposite in white, the dark skinned man is my teaching partner for the course and junior. He is a respected and feared man in East Cleveland/Cleveland. He did double prison terms for serious violent crimes, converted to Islam in prison and is the head Imam of the main Mosque in East Cleveland where he tries to make a positive change in his community. But if you know anything about East Cleveland, you know that may take a very long time.

 

[Cyriacus]

I certainly dont live in a hostile place. I was a proffessional musician for years and my job was playing clubs and pubs 6 nights a week, often not coming on stage until after midnight. You spend that much time in pubs and clubs and you will see a lot of fights, its just the nature of combining young males and alcohol unfortunately. Again, if I want advice on an art, or a technique, or poomsae or sparring etc this is the place to come, however if I require advice on violent altercations I will take the advice of experienced police officers over people's opinions on a martial arts board.

Especially just after closing time, when everyone goes to leave.

I would never ask a police officer any advise related to physical self defense, and I would not recommend anyone to seek out self defense advise from a police officer. They function under very different rules, criminals and general populations react very differently with officers than they do with civilians. I have seen much better advise from a few posters on MT.

I guess I am different in that I do live in a dangerous place and have all my life. I know violence, danger, fear, etc. up close and personal, and have all my life. So it ends up the other way around. For years, the City of Cleveland (USA) comes to me for self defense training of it's new cadets who will be dealing with criminals in the streets of one of America's most dangerous cities. According to what they tell me, the things they have learned from me and my crew has saved their lives, and the lives of others.

[/IMG]

That's me in the yellow shirt at my school in Cleveland, opposite in white, the dark skinned man is my teaching partner for the course and junior. He is a respected and feared man in East Cleveland/Cleveland. He did double prison terms for serious violent crimes, converted to Islam in prison and is the head Imam of the main Mosque in East Cleveland where he tries to make a positive change in his community. But if you know anything about East Cleveland, you know that may take a very long time.

Good to see, Good Sir

 

[Buka]

I think it is age related. At a certain age, it is just too much work. This is the way it was meant to be, older means tighter means lower kicks means better self defense. Of course at my age it makes perfect sense, to me.

That's an Amen AND a Hallelujah right there, brother.

 

[Archtkd]

For the record I was an Air Force Security Policeman for four years. We had the benefit of our sidearm and most of our police training focused on using that.

Precisely

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Precisely

I think you misunderstand me regarding advice from police officers. I wouldnt ask a police officer "how" to street fight. They operate under different rules, they have a fire arm, they cant just go around knocking people out etc. I remember one police officer I train with telling me the people he fears the most in his line of work are old ladies gone mad because they almost always end up brandishing a steak knife and because they are old and frail you cant be too rough with them. So as I said, they face different circumstances to me or you. BUT, police officers see literally thousands of street fights, altercations, domestics etc etc and they are a wealth of knowledge regarding what people do in street fights and what works in street fights because they just see so many of them. Actually a good friend of mine owns a pub in a pretty bad part of town and has people kicked out for fighting on a very regular basis, he would see more pub/street fights than most. When I next see him, I'll ask how often he has see one of these fights end with a head kick. The original statement I made was that wtf ruleset does not resemble a 'real' fight, so if Im incorrect surely he will tell me that he sees brawls all the time in his pub where head kicks are used and punches to the face are rare.

 

[mastercole]

I think you miunderstand me regarding advice from police officers. I wouldnt ask a police officer "how" to street fight. They operate under different rules, they have a fire arm, they cant just go around knocking people out etc. I remember one police officer I train with telling me the people he fears the most in his line of work are old ladies gone mad because they almost always end up brandishing a steak knife and because they are old and frail you cant be too rough with them. So as I said, they face different circumstances to me or you. BUT, police officers see literally thousands of street fights, altercations, domestics etc etc and they are a wealth of knowledge regarding what people do in street fights and what works in street fights because they just see so many of them. Actually a good friend of mine owns a pub in a pretty bad part of town and has people kicked out for fighting on a very regular basis, he would see more pub/street fights than most. When I next see him, I'll ask how often he has see one of these fights end with a head kick.

While you are at it, ask him about spear hand and crane-neck wrist strikes, maybe they have replaced kicks in street fights. I once saw them used in the TV series Kungfu.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

While you are at it, ask him about spear hand and crane-neck wrist strikes, maybe they have replaced kicks in street fights. I once saw them used in the TV series Kungfu.

On a serious note, I believe many people base their assumptions of what will happen in a 'real' fight based on what they see in kung fu movies. The younger students in particular often say that a certain technique will work because of something they saw jackie chan or bruce lee do. They get a real nasty shock the first time they get into a real fight. In the kung fu movies people seem to have a wealth of time on their hands, the punches and kicks are crisp and each guy attacks one after the other. The floor is never slippery, they just happen to be walking the street in kick pants, the fights are never sloppy and you can actually flip people and defend against guys with knives. As we get older we get wiser and actually get into a few fights and see mates in fights and realise just how chaotic, sloppy and 'simplistic' real fights are. Probably one of the reasons that boxers usually make good street fighters.

 

[Cyriacus]

On a serious note, I believe many people base their assumptions of what will happen in a 'real' fight based on what they see in kung fu movies. The younger students in particular often say that a certain technique will work because of something they saw jackie chan or bruce lee do. They get a real nasty shock the first time they get into a real fight. In the kung fu movies people seem to have a wealth of time on their hands, the punches and kicks are crisp and each guy attacks one after the other. The floor is never slippery, they just happen to be walking the street in kick pants, the fights are never sloppy and you can actually flip people and defend against guys with knives. As we get older we get wiser and actually get into a few fights and see mates in fights and realise just how chaotic, sloppy and 'simplistic' real fights are. Probably one of the reasons that boxers usually make good street fighters.

Case in point;

Bruce Lee:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtnSwm6ajsk&list=WLEAB784316E1B7788&index=58&feature=plpp_video
Wow. Thats amazing. Hes really talented.

Some guy:

Huh. Apparently He just kicked harder than Bruce Lee.

The Point:
Kung Fu Movies dramatise things, like when the little chinese dude goes into the big scary Karate Dojo and beats everyone up.
Id say "Warrior" had better Choreography than any Kung Fu Movie ever.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Case in point;

Bruce Lee:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtnSwm6ajsk&list=WLEAB784316E1B7788&index=58&feature=plpp_video
Wow. Thats amazing. Hes really talented.

Some guy:

Huh. Apparently He just kicked harder than Bruce Lee.

The Point:
Kung Fu Movies dramatise things, like when the little chinese dude goes into the big scary Karate Dojo and beats everyone up.
Id say "Warrior" had better Choreography than any Kung Fu Movie ever.

they are what you make of them. As a teenager me and my mates would watch those movies and marvel at what they did, we would train in the backyard and try to use the same defences the 'kung fu' guys did so we could get better at 'fighting'. Now, years on, we sit back and watch those movies and we still marvel at what those guys do, but these days we have a little chuckle at what they are doing knowing its just a movie. Then we go outside and punch the bag for an hour or so. Because of this I can understand why the less experienced people watch these movies and come up with all sorts of scenarios about what happens in 'real fights'. We have to do a full speed self defence scenario as part of our black belt gradings and it must go for about a minute or so. The young, inexperienced guys get up and 'save the day' with a barrage of spinning kicks and jumps and amazing knockouts, then the older guys who have been around a bit do theirs and its the complete opposite. I think its all a part of maturing, as a martial artist and person. My instructor always says he can tell who has real experience fighting by what they do in their self defence scenario.

 

[Twin Fist]

the problem is, people see really EALLY good blackbelts do something in the school, they think THEY can pull it off in the street......

i dont care what herb perez or anderson silva can pull off in competition, you MIGHT get away with it on the street, but you cant DEPEND on it working, if you do, you will regret it

You continue believing your fancy head kicks will save you from the bad guy, I just hope for your sake you never have to test the theory.

 

[Archtkd]

I certainly dont live in a hostile place. I was a proffessional musician for years and my job was playing clubs and pubs 6 nights a week, often not coming on stage until after midnight. You spend that much time in pubs and clubs and you will see a lot of fights, its just the nature of combining young males and alcohol unfortunately. Again, if I want advice on an art, or a technique, or poomsae or sparring etc this is the place to come, however if I require advice on violent altercations I will take the advice of experienced police officers over people's opinions on a martial arts board.

So is your training geared toward protecting yourself in drunken bar fights, with a methodology based on info culled from drunks exchanging blows and data and advise filtered from cop stories? What is the role of your sabum in all this?

Oh, and I know one or two things about the "real" world and that knowledge doesn’t stop me from making a daily effort of sharpening one of my main weapons: my legs.

I live in a place that last year was infamously ranked (http://urbantitan.com/10-most-dangerous-cities-in-the-world-in-2011/) as the most dangerous city in America and the 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] most dangerous city in the world: St. Louis, Missouri. Three years ago there was a gun fight outside my dojang at about 7 p.m. Two years ago a rookie student of mine was gunned down in the city, and I didn’t know about it because his death was buried deep inside the newspaper, overtaken by a page one story, about a deadly shootout of gangbangers at a wake in a funeral home, a few blocks from my dojang.
In the early 1990s I lived and attended university, worked and taught and studied taekwondo in another city with high ranking on the most dangerous city list, Kankakee, Illinois. This was at the height of the crack cocaine wars. In my early journalism day, I worked on the police beat for the Daily Journal (Kankakee) and later went on to cover major crimes as part of my newsman job for the Associated Press.

My taekwondo students – in a predominantly adult dojang -- include people who know violence in and out. They include old-school taekwondoin, elite special forces vets, regular military vets, cops, and security personnel.

 

[Twin Fist]

i am getting more and more convinced there are several people on this board who have never in thier lives been hit by an ungloved hand.....

 

[ralphmcpherson]

i am getting more and more convinced there are several people on this board who have never in thier lives been hit by an ungloved hand.....

I couldnt agree more.