How much of an advantage is a knife?

[oftheherd1]

Yup, it’s pretty bleak and he is honest about that.

When someone is coming at you and he is right up in your face going “stabstabstabstanstabstab” there are things that MIGHT work, but nothing can be relied upon to work with consistency, and then you are dead.

That does not mean you shouldn’t try to train them. But be honest with yourself. It is bleak.

I would never tell anyone that knife defense is 100% effective. It depends on too many factors. One of the most important is training of course, and along with that getting a person used to the fact that being attacked with a knife is scary, and they need to overcome that. That may lessen the chance an attacker has to get into his comfort zone of controlling you, like grabbing you or placing his other hand disadvantageously to you.

@Buka have you trained any specific art's defenses? I have seen many techniques that seem effective, but usually depend on both speed and agility.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Now that part I disagreed with.....

Give me a guy with a knife over a guy with a gun any day.

For me, only if the guy with the gun isn't going to press it close to give me a chance. Easier to avoid the part that hurts, if I have to do that. A gun at 12" or 12' is worse than a knife I can see.

Of course, if either is used as a surprise weapon, all arguments are null.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I would never tell anyone that knife defense is 100% effective. It depends on too many factors. One of the most important is training of course, and along with that getting a person used to the fact that being attacked with a knife is scary, and they need to overcome that. That may lessen the chance an attacker has to get into his comfort zone of controlling you, like grabbing you or placing his other hand disadvantageously to you.

@Buka have you trained any specific art's defenses? I have seen many techniques that seem effective, but usually depend on both speed and agility.

I read (possibly on MT) some time ago that in a review of knife attack videos, 71% started with an off-hand attack. I don't recall if they broke down the percentages within that, but it included the off-hand pushing, punching, or grabbing before the knife hand attacked. That's troubling for many of the knife defenses I've seen.

 

[CB Jones]

For me, only if the guy with the gun isn't going to press it close to give me a chance. Easier to avoid the part that hurts, if I have to do that. A gun at 12" or 12' is worse than a knife I can see.

Of course, if either is used as a surprise weapon, all arguments are null.

I have a difference of opinion.

Against a knife you have a much larger room for error

 

[oftheherd1]

I read (possibly on MT) some time ago that in a review of knife attack videos, 71% started with an off-hand attack. I don't recall if they broke down the percentages within that, but it included the off-hand pushing, punching, or grabbing before the knife hand attacked. That's troubling for many of the knife defenses I've seen.

I understand what you mean, but shouldn't we grapplers be prepared for a person who shows any sign of entering out space and be prepared to do something, even if it is only to retreat or parry? But being prepared we should use an appropriate defense if we can.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I understand what you mean, but shouldn't we grapplers be prepared for a person who shows any sign of entering out space and be prepared to do something, even if it is only to retreat or parry? But being prepared we should use an appropriate defense if we can.

Many grappling moves don't defend against the second hand as a strike/stab. In fact, many I've seen actually ignore that hand and deal entirely with the first one, assuming it is the primary attack and that enough disruption will happen before the second can cause damage (which often assumes it to be a grab or punch). And a lot of knife defense I've seen assumes the knife is the first hand in (not having to deal with the other, at all).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have a difference of opinion.

Against a knife you have a much larger room for error

I disagree, though only slightly. Most of the disagreement has to do with the fact that I can afford to grab the gun, the hand, or the wrist. I cannot afford to grab the knife, and even the hand is chancy.

Of course, there's an argument in the other direction that if I can create space and time (maybe just knock him down), I can probably outrun the knife (under adrenal load), but not so much the gun.

 

[CB Jones]

I disagree, though only slightly. Most of the disagreement has to do with the fact that I can afford to grab the gun, the hand, or the wrist. I cannot afford to grab the knife, and even the hand is chancy.

But if you miss the grab you can still quickly block and or deflect the blade with your hands and arms to protect your vitals.

Not so much with bullets...just because you are successful with the grab doesn’t mean you wont get shot.

 

[sinthetik_mistik]

@sinthetik_mistik - sorry, yeah, if you didn't understand the stolen joke straight away it loses all funniness

(Guy says "for years I thought gunpoint was an actual place.....why do people keep going there?")

lol it's all good

 

[sinthetik_mistik]

Giving away stuff is an easy decision when there's a knife or gun in play. They can have my car, if they want it.

yeah better your car than your life

 

[sinthetik_mistik]

Now that part I disagreed with.....

Give me a guy with a knife over a guy with a gun any day.

yeah it's hard to say... they're both dangerous as hell

 

[CB Jones]

yeah it's hard to say... they're both dangerous as hell

I’ve been cut across the shoulder and stabbed through the hand.....it sucks but I’ve can’t see it being worse than a bullet punching a hole in you.

 

[pdg]

I’ve been cut across the shoulder and stabbed through the hand.....it sucks but I’ve can’t see it being worse than a bullet punching a hole in you.

Ah, but...

Swing and stab wildly with a knife = high chance of contact and damage.

Spray and pray with a semi auto = probably run out of ammo before hitting anything you actually wanted to.

Point a knife at touching range, the victim trying to divert it is likely to be injured.

Point a gun at touching range, it's only dangerous in one very very limited direction.


At close range (arm length ish, give or take), given the choice, I'd rather they have a gun than a knife.

 

[Buka]

Either one is a bad day at Black Rock. But if given my druthers, put that gun to my forehead any day. Frightening as all get out, but if you have done that and haven't yet shot me, life as you know it is over.

I know that sounds silly, but I've drilled handgun disarms so many times for so many years....and, yes, it's probably been a waste of time, but hey, what can I say?

Just keep them damn knives away from me.

 

[Buka]

I would never tell anyone that knife defense is 100% effective. It depends on too many factors. One of the most important is training of course, and along with that getting a person used to the fact that being attacked with a knife is scary, and they need to overcome that. That may lessen the chance an attacker has to get into his comfort zone of controlling you, like grabbing you or placing his other hand disadvantageously to you.

@Buka have you trained any specific art's defenses? I have seen many techniques that seem effective, but usually depend on both speed and agility.

Any time I was visiting another dojo, if I was asked what I would like to work on from their art, I would request either self defense, sparring or weapons defense. And that's been a lot of dojos over the years. [and a lot of **** whoopings I got]

The speed and agility parts were never a problem for me. I'm just not good against knives, never have been. Unless I have a knife. And I practice a lot with a knife.

And you bring up a terrific point - the realization in students that it's scary. One thing I've seen throughout the years, in some places - is an almost blaise approach to knife training.

And the dreaded X block of a knife. You know, where you cross the wrists and block an incoming straight strike and then disarm with a wrist lock.......like I used to teach when I was a youngster. Thank God nobody actually had to use that and got themselves killed.

 

[wab25]

Frightening as all get out, but if you have done that and haven't yet shot me, life as you know it is over.

Whether you are facing a knife or a gun, this attitude is important. You only get one shot (see what I did there?) at it, otherwise the reverse will be true. Your life as you know it, will never be the same.

I think that we practice these things too much, as play. I have 10 tries to get this right. Wait, stop, I missed my grip, let me change this here... It doesn't matter how effective your move is, if you are only playing the move, like we do in training.

To me, the whole point of training knife and gun defense, is learning to go from 0 to 110% instantly, then maintaining that 110% until the other guy is down, and you have the weapon and are safe... all done with control. In the systems I have seen, the techniques used against weapons, are very similar to empty hand techniques. Empty hand is the time to work accuracy, timing, distancing... all those other bits. When you introduce the weapon, its to find out if you can keep all that you learned, at 110%, and when it goes wrong, are you committed enough to finish completely... guy down, you have the weapon and are safe.

If you ever have to use it for real... its not going to go perfectly. You will have to go from 0 to 110% instantly. As soon as you start, one of you will never be the same. Once you gain an extra hole, your time gets extremely limited. You need to adapt, and finish before you bleed out. Gaining additional holes only serves to limit your time. Commitment is key and you can't change your mind once you start. We need to train this way, when we introduce the weapon.

While the use of these techniques against weapons is in reality, pretty low percentage, the attitude and commitment would apply to any self defense situation, where you employ your physical techniques. Once you start, you need to finish, no matter what goes wrong. I believe we respond in the street, the way we practice. Regardless of how effective your technique is... if you only go to 40%... or change your mind, once it starts to go wrong... you are done. You may be done anyway, even if you go at 110% and everything goes perfectly, but hopefully you can take the other guy with you.

Empty hand is about technique. Weapon disarms are about mindset and commitment.

 

[Steve]

Statistically, many of them are - especially under stress (like the kind of situation where you might choose to shoot someone). The problem is that I don't have much opportunity to affect my own odds. Movement is my only tool at that range.

Statistically, everyone is, even people who are well trained.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I read (possibly on MT) some time ago that in a review of knife attack videos, 71% started with an off-hand attack. I don't recall if they broke down the percentages within that, but it included the off-hand pushing, punching, or grabbing before the knife hand attacked. That's troubling for many of the knife defenses I've seen.

Yup, that was from here a couple months back.

 

[Buka]

Whether you are facing a knife or a gun, this attitude is important. You only get one shot (see what I did there?) at it, otherwise the reverse will be true. Your life as you know it, will never be the same.

I think that we practice these things too much, as play. I have 10 tries to get this right. Wait, stop, I missed my grip, let me change this here... It doesn't matter how effective your move is, if you are only playing the move, like we do in training.

To me, the whole point of training knife and gun defense, is learning to go from 0 to 110% instantly, then maintaining that 110% until the other guy is down, and you have the weapon and are safe... all done with control. In the systems I have seen, the techniques used against weapons, are very similar to empty hand techniques. Empty hand is the time to work accuracy, timing, distancing... all those other bits. When you introduce the weapon, its to find out if you can keep all that you learned, at 110%, and when it goes wrong, are you committed enough to finish completely... guy down, you have the weapon and are safe.

If you ever have to use it for real... its not going to go perfectly. You will have to go from 0 to 110% instantly. As soon as you start, one of you will never be the same. Once you gain an extra hole, your time gets extremely limited. You need to adapt, and finish before you bleed out. Gaining additional holes only serves to limit your time. Commitment is key and you can't change your mind once you start. We need to train this way, when we introduce the weapon.

While the use of these techniques against weapons is in reality, pretty low percentage, the attitude and commitment would apply to any self defense situation, where you employ your physical techniques. Once you start, you need to finish, no matter what goes wrong. I believe we respond in the street, the way we practice. Regardless of how effective your technique is... if you only go to 40%... or change your mind, once it starts to go wrong... you are done. You may be done anyway, even if you go at 110% and everything goes perfectly, but hopefully you can take the other guy with you.

Empty hand is about technique. Weapon disarms are about mindset and commitment.

Love everything you mentioned. Just wanted to add that Empty hand is also about mindset and commitment.

Here's a question...how does one train, or teach, mindset and commitment?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Whether you are facing a knife or a gun, this attitude is important. You only get one shot (see what I did there?) at it, otherwise the reverse will be true. Your life as you know it, will never be the same.

I think that we practice these things too much, as play. I have 10 tries to get this right. Wait, stop, I missed my grip, let me change this here... It doesn't matter how effective your move is, if you are only playing the move, like we do in training.

To me, the whole point of training knife and gun defense, is learning to go from 0 to 110% instantly, then maintaining that 110% until the other guy is down, and you have the weapon and are safe... all done with control. In the systems I have seen, the techniques used against weapons, are very similar to empty hand techniques. Empty hand is the time to work accuracy, timing, distancing... all those other bits. When you introduce the weapon, its to find out if you can keep all that you learned, at 110%, and when it goes wrong, are you committed enough to finish completely... guy down, you have the weapon and are safe.

If you ever have to use it for real... its not going to go perfectly. You will have to go from 0 to 110% instantly. As soon as you start, one of you will never be the same. Once you gain an extra hole, your time gets extremely limited. You need to adapt, and finish before you bleed out. Gaining additional holes only serves to limit your time. Commitment is key and you can't change your mind once you start. We need to train this way, when we introduce the weapon.

While the use of these techniques against weapons is in reality, pretty low percentage, the attitude and commitment would apply to any self defense situation, where you employ your physical techniques. Once you start, you need to finish, no matter what goes wrong. I believe we respond in the street, the way we practice. Regardless of how effective your technique is... if you only go to 40%... or change your mind, once it starts to go wrong... you are done. You may be done anyway, even if you go at 110% and everything goes perfectly, but hopefully you can take the other guy with you.

Empty hand is about technique. Weapon disarms are about mindset and commitment.

An important part of how I teach for SD includes never "just stopping", outside of no-resistance technical drills. If you're practicing application of something, and it fails, it's scramble time. I want students to get used to doing SOMETHING when they mess up...almost anything besides "wait, start over".