How Military Culture Turned America Into the land of SWAT

[Makalakumu]

What do you think our "mission" is?

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SWAT's, and the police in general, mission is not to terrorize the public. When doors get kicked down and cops dressed like stormtroopers barrel into a house or business that isn't engaged in anything overtly dangerous, the message sent to the public is terroristic. Follow the law or else.

For those of you who don't think this is a problem, think again. America has cops beating down the doors of health food coops for selling raw milk.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9MVwdv5HBVQ

Is there such a safety concern here that the cops have to point guns at everyone, break stuff, and destroy property? SWAT officers don't need to do things like this, but our society would turn them into official, legalized, terrorists.

 

[Makalakumu]

Here is a SWAT raid on a family home. The cops had a search warrant for marijuana.

They killed the family dog in front of a seven year old kid.

This is government approved terrorism. Don't use pot, kid and neighbors, or this will happen to you!

 

[Makalakumu]

Here are the stormtroopers breaking up political protests.

Same concept. Same principle. It's government terror and this sort of thing is slowly getting worse. One day people are going to wake up and not recognize their country.

 

[Tgace]

You think this is somehow better...different..or worse than cops hosing down and beating civil rights protestors in the 60's? Or the gvt using troops to clear out draft protestors during the Civil War? Policing was "better" in the 1950's according to you? Do you have any idea was policing was actually like as recently as the 1980's?

You "sky is falling" types seem to have some rosey colored versions of history when you say things are "getting worse"....

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[Tgace]

What do you think our "mission" is?

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Still haven't gotten your expert opinion on what the SWAT mission is...

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[Makalakumu]

You think this is somehow better...different..or worse than cops hosing down and beating civil rights protestors in the 60's? Or the gvt using troops to clear out draft protestors during the Civil War? Policing was "better" in the 1950's according to you? Do you have any idea was policing was actually like as recently as the 1980's?

You "sky is falling" types seem to have some rosey colored versions of history when you say things are "getting worse"....

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Why do past abuses excuse current ones?

 

[Makalakumu]

Still haven't gotten your expert opinion on what the SWAT mission is...

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I'm not an expert and that is probably what is actually needed here. You don't need to be an expert to look at what is happening and judge it. IMHO, I think the experts are probably part of the problem. There aren't enough average people in that group to inject a different perspective. For instance, maybe an average person could say that you don't need to terrorize little kids on the suspicion that there might be a little pot on the premises. Maybe an non-expert could say that cops don't need to raid groceries with guns drawn and breaking things for the crime of selling raw milk.

 

[Tgace]

Why do past abuses excuse current ones?

They don't...but the "sky is falling" histrionics are hyperbole. On the continuum of policing we have seen vast improvements in recent history.

This topic is similar to all the "most violent period in history" chicken little ****....ignoring the fact that both interpersonal violence and war deaths have been showing sharp declines when seen through the lens of time vs cherry picked youtube videos/news articles and blogs.....

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[Tgace]

Here is a SWAT raid on a family home. The cops had a search warrant for marijuana.

They killed the family dog in front of a seven year old kid.

This is government approved terrorism. Don't use pot, kid and neighbors, or this will happen to you!

While I don't know the details of this warrant (and I doubt you do as well)...the reason for the warrant is but one factor in a threat assessment...and a low value one at that.

What if the target in your "only a marijuana warrant" is on parole for murder?

What if the target has a criminal history of resisting/violence/weapons?

What if the confidential informant in the case tells you he has seen weapons in the residence and the target and his 3 brothers are all known gang members?

What if the structure is known to be barricaded and you need breaching expertise?

What if the real investigatory purpose is to get a violent probationer known to be involved in criminal enterprise back behind bars and the most solid case you have is a "marijuana warrant"?

The "they used SWAT only for a xxxxxx warrant" is meaningless when it comes to a valid reason to use SWAT...to someone who knows what valid reasons are.


Is that to say that some PD's are NOT misusing their Teams? Hell no...I KNOW that some are. Am I ready to buy this "mission creep" claptrap whole cloth? Uhhhhh.....

No.

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[Tgace]

SWAT's, and the police in general, mission is not to terrorize the public. When doors get kicked down and cops dressed like stormtroopers barrel into a house or business that isn't engaged in anything overtly dangerous, the message sent to the public is terroristic. Follow the law or else.

For those of you who don't think this is a problem, think again. America has cops beating down the doors of health food coops for selling raw milk.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9MVwdv5HBVQ

Is there such a safety concern here that the cops have to point guns at everyone, break stuff, and destroy property? SWAT officers don't need to do things like this, but our society would turn them into official, legalized, terrorists.

SWAT?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/08/04/the-rawesome-raid-and-raw-milk-controversy/

While the raid itself appears to have been pretty by-the-book, rather than a SWAT-style raid as originally reported by Natural News, the absurdity of the raid itself is not so much in its tactics but in the fact that it’s happening in the first place.

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[Makalakumu]

They don't...but the "sky is falling" histrionics are hyperbole. On the continuum of policing we have seen vast improvements in recent history.

This topic is similar to all the "most violent period in history" chicken little ****....ignoring the fact that both interpersonal violence and war deaths have been showing sharp declines when seen through the lens of time vs cherry picked youtube videos/news articles and blogs.....

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If I could go back in time and talk to myself 20 years ago, I don't think I would have believed the my future self if he told me that I would live in a country where people could be labeled a terrorist, have their rights stripped with no trial, and be thrown in a hole with no possibility for redress. I don't think I would believe the future me if he told me that everything, including my position on a moment by moment basis would be tracked and recorded into a data base that could be searched to make a file on me for whatever political purpose. I think my past self would stare bug eyed if my future self told me that grocers would be raided with guns drawn for the crime of selling raw milk. I especially wouldn't believe that people would even think of raiding a VFW, a place where veterans "who fought for freedom", for a little gambling.

Something really has changed with the mindset of government and it's officials. Yes, maybe somethings have gotten better, but that in no ways means everything has. In fact, I think in many ways, especially in ways that involve civil rights, drugs, and politics, it's gotten so much worse. Yes, abuses happened in the past, but I think the difference is that we're seeing an erosion of the fundamental values that could possibly have led to some accountability.

The fundamental moral decency of people who serve the government appears to be eroding. Duty and obedience have become higher virtues than just about anything else. How else can you explain why a man would blow Bingo's head off in front of a seven year old boy? How else can you explain why a man would terrorize a business owner for selling medicine? How else can you explain why a group of men would kick down a grocer's door, threaten his life, and arrest him for selling raw milk? How else can you pepper spraying beautiful young women at point blank range without even a flinch of emotion.

This is a slow lurch toward sociopathic behavior, IMO.

 

[Tgace]

If I could go back in time and talk to myself 20 years ago, I don't think I would have believed the my future self if he told me that I would live in a country where people could be labeled a terrorist, have their rights stripped with no trial, and be thrown in a hole with no possibility for redress.

Yeah that would be as crazy as say....throwing Japanese Americans into internment camps......

Or Feds raiding speak easys looking for booze....

The whole "getting WORSE" thing.......hyperbole.....


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[Makalakumu]

Yeah that would be as crazy as say....throwing Japanese Americans into internment camps......

Or Feds raiding speak easys looking for booze....

The whole "getting WORSE" thing.......hyperbole.....


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Dude, if you're right, there never were any good old days. Lol.

 

[Tgace]

Dude, if you're right, there never were any good old days. Lol.

There weren't...that's what I'm trying to say.

Sure some things can use improvement....sure some royally ****ed up stuff happens...but "worse" or "never seen this before"? That's more political opinion than historic fact.

LE service is more "your local corner store" than "national chain store" While most laws are very similar nationwide and our gear/tactics/etc are more alike than unique, HOW we operate and make decisions is more varied than the unitiated realize.

There are examples of cops doing thing my PD would NEVER do....but we all get painted with the "THE POLICE ARE....." brush.

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[ballen0351]

So all the examples you posted would have been different had non swat officers done the warrant? Dogs would have been not shot if normal cops did the warrant? I've shot dogs it happens. I've shot more dogs in regular duty then I have on SWAT raids

 

[ballen0351]

Still haven't gotten your expert opinion on what the SWAT mission is...

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He has no clue but he knows its creeping

 

[granfire]

It's to acquire Shetland Ponies and strive for world domination...
Or was that Mini Donkeys and cats?

No, wait, that's DHS....

 

[Carol]

I noticed something with the Trayvon protests. I couldn't watch much for news last night with my cable box acting up, so I went online and found a couple of live streams. One was an semi-independent journalist (his feed was hosted by an online mag), walking with the protesters in NYC. He commented on the police presence, including the terror unit supervisors he passed as he went by. After the NY fellow went offline, I found references to a live chopper feed from one of the TV stations. I caught part of that then went to Twitter to find another citizen journalist to follow once the chopper ran low on fuel.

One thing that appeared consistent with the two cities is that the LEOs were -- more often than not -- in a standard uniform. I didn't see many at all in an external vest, or carrying riot shields, etc.

 

[granfire]

I noticed something with the Trayvon protests. I couldn't watch much for news last night with my cable box acting up, so I went online and found a couple of live streams. One was an semi-independent journalist (his feed was hosted by an online mag), walking with the protesters in NYC. He commented on the police presence, including the terror unit supervisors he passed as he went by. After the NY fellow went offline, I found references to a live chopper feed from one of the TV stations. I caught part of that then went to Twitter to find another citizen journalist to follow once the chopper ran low on fuel.

One thing that appeared consistent with the two cities is that the LEOs were -- more often than not -- in a standard uniform. I didn't see many at all in an external vest, or carrying riot shields, etc.

I am thinking - since this is dealing with what it's essentially a mob with less brain than an amoeba - showing up in fatigues and external vests would only pour oil into the flames. Riot gear (I am sure the helmets and shields are within easy reach...) would be like lighting a fuse on a powder keg....

 

[Flying Crane]

Sounds like there is some important data missing from the TV scenario. Starting pay for an officer where I live in NH is over 50k, and our cost of living is nothing like California's. Some police officers (like some college professors) are among the highest paid public employees in the state (in general - not just here)


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I've seen recruitment posters for PD here in San Francisco, advertising starting pay around $80k.

Regarding college professors, some of them are well paid, depending on their subject. Others are among the lowest paid public employees.