How Military Culture Turned America Into the land of SWAT

[jks9199]

I understand the point you are making. I'm sure that procedure would have you do what you are describing and that the police were using lesser methods. However, we are talking about a 95 year old man. Sometimes the "procedure" might simply be overkill. This strikes me as the same overwhelming force idea that comes from military doctrines.

First, the subject was NOT electrocuted. The Taser delivers a carefully designed and thoroughly studied electrical pulse which, when it works, incapacitates a subject doing minimal harm, and with less chance of serious injury to both the subject and the officers.

Second, SWAT or Tac team is a specific term. Unless you happen to be Humpty Dumpty, we can't make them mean what we want, when we want to. It's a special purpose police unit, using special weapons and tactics (hence the acronym) to respond to situations that are beyond the typical capability of a "normal" police officer. Using a few tactics from the SWAT arsenal doesn't make an action a SWAT operation anymore than putting boxing gloves on a TKD or BJJ student makes them a boxer.

Look, the particular situation described here is a no-win. The cops were stuck making the old man do something he didn't want to, and especially if he was armed, they were really over a barrel. I"m waiting for a similar mess where I work; we've got a lot of older folks with various cognitive issues, and some of the caregivers are clearly over their heads. The day's going to come where I or one of my colleagues has to forcibly deal with some of these people -- and it's going to end no prettier than the case here.

 

[arnisador]

The physician mistakes that kill more people are made in a situation that they control, they make all the decisions, there is usually no time pressure or threat of physical harm to the physician as he is making his decisions for the patient and it is done in a nice air conditioned office with magazines in their lobby, and muzac playing...and they kill more people than cops...

...and they are treating people who often are in danger of death or serious injury without treatment. But most people will meet with a physician during a year; many fewer will have an interaction with a LEO. So, what's it look like on a per-encounter basis?

 

[arnisador]

All that's really changed is the Internet.....

...raising awareness. But no, there's more than that--it's a trend of increasing paramilitary police.

Small-Town Police Departments Are Getting Billions In Big Military Hardware

military hardware is increasingly showing up in small-town police departments. Part of what's known as the "1033 Program" passed by Congress in 1997 and meant to augment police departments fighting the drug war, military gear is showing up in large numbers, and in some unlikely places[...]With little oversight and a "if I don't get it, someone else will" mentality among police chiefs[...]:

-- Morven, Ga.: Despite having an ankle-deep creek as it's deepest body of water, the police chief got his hands on three boats, scuba gear, and rescue rafts.
-- Rising Star, Texas: With a population of 835 residents, and only one full-time police officer, this department netted more than $3.2 million in property over 14 months.
-- Bureau Count, Ill.: The sheriff — who had government-issued M14 rifles — was accused of lending some of them out to friends.

“We have concerns that the lines between the two [police and military] is starting to blur,
[...]
We've covered this trend before, writing of more than $34 billion in grants from DHS to local police departments. This in turn, has boosted the rise of heavily armed SWAT teams and their use on otherwise routine drug warrants[...]"The harm for me is that it further militarizes American law enforcement," Norm Stamper, a retired Seattle Police chief told the AP. "We make a serious mistake, I'm convinced, in equipping domestic law enforcement, particularly in smaller, rural communities, with this much military equipment."

​

 

[ballen0351]

...raising awareness. But no, there's more than that--it's a trend of increasing paramilitary police.

Small-Town Police Departments Are Getting Billions In Big Military Hardware

​

So SCUBA and rafts are military gear, 3.2 million of what property it doesn't say but you know its military hardware? M-14 rifles haven't been standard issue in the military since the 70's.

 

[ballen0351]

...and they are treating people who often are in danger of death or serious injury without treatment. But most people will meet with a physician during a year; many fewer will have an interaction with a LEO. So, what's it look like on a per-encounter basis?

Sure lets look at it. I work 40 hrs a week Id say 48 weeks a year. I come in contact with 100 people a day sometimes more sometimes less. Lets see 4800 people a year x 15 years Ive had contact with 72000 folks give or take and Ive shot 1. Hmmm yep were are out of control. Now Ive been personally shot at about 4 times in that same time frame so if we are our of control you guys are off the charts

 

[Tgace]

And I don't say this to excuse or minimize the LE **** ups that happen, but the idea that policing is somehow "worse" now than in decades past is laughable. Having worked with cops who policed in the 60's through the 90's I have heard stories that would shock you.

Saps, lead knuckled gloves, shooting at cars during pursuits, bribery, drinking while on the job (actual "lounges"/bars INSIDE police stations), cops eating their guns before the FBI could close in on their mob connections. If you have a time machine...go back to the 70's and mouth off to a cop and come back and report the results (if you can speak)...

While we should always be alert for problems and looking to do better...I assure you we are FAR better policed today than we were in decades past. This "things are getting worse" thing is an ignorance of history. Things are "different"....

 

[Makalakumu]

And I don't say this to excuse or minimize the LE **** ups that happen, but the idea that policing is somehow "worse" now than in decades past is laughable. Having worked with cops who policed in the 60's through the 90's I have heard stories that would shock you.

Saps, lead knuckled gloves, shooting at cars during pursuits, bribery, drinking while on the job (actual "lounges"/bars INSIDE police stations), cops eating their guns before the FBI could close in on their mob connections. If you have a time machine...go back to the 70's and mouth off to a cop and come back and report the results (if you can speak)...

While we should always be alert for problems and looking to do better...I assure you we are FAR better policed today than we were in decades past. This "things are getting worse" thing is an ignorance of history. Things are "different"....

As cynical of power as I am, posts like this give me hope that I'm wrong.

 

[arnisador]

And I don't say this to excuse or minimize the LE **** ups that happen, but the idea that policing is somehow "worse" now than in decades past is laughable. Having worked with cops who policed in the 60's through the 90's I have heard stories that would shock you.

Saps, lead knuckled gloves, shooting at cars during pursuits, bribery, drinking while on the job (actual "lounges"/bars INSIDE police stations), cops eating their guns before the FBI could close in on their mob connections. If you have a time machine...go back to the 70's and mouth off to a cop and come back and report the results (if you can speak)...

While we should always be alert for problems and looking to do better...I assure you we are FAR better policed today than we were in decades past. This "things are getting worse" thing is an ignorance of history. Things are "different"....

You make a good point. I think you're right on professionalism, and that's great and to the credit of police depts. and orgs. enforcing higher standards. But the growing use of paramilitary raids is a separate matter. The drug wars explain some of it but there are too many examples of this approach being over-used.

 

[ballen0351]

You make a good point. I think you're right on professionalism, and that's great and to the credit of police depts. and orgs. enforcing higher standards. But the growing use of paramilitary raids is a separate matter. The drug wars explain some of it but there are too many examples of this approach being over-used.

So what is a paramilitary raid? There are only so many ways to go into a house mainly the front door if I go through the front door just like a solider goes through a front door its merely a coincidence since there are only so many ways to go through a front door. So what's a paramilitary way and non paramilitary way to go through a front door?

When I was in the Marines most of our raids on targets involved helicopters and cover fire never used cover fire on a police raid

 

[arnisador]

The gambling story was a good example, I thought.

 

[ballen0351]

The gambling story was a good example, I thought.

So how would you do it different?

How should police do their jobs to make happy?

That sounds like I'm being a smart *** but im not I just can't word it better but as a non officer how would you like to see things done

 

[arnisador]

A gambler? Send two uniformed cops to the door. When he comes to answer, tell him he's under arrest. If that's too worrisome, watch him in the morning for a couple of days and arrest him when he goes to his car for work.

 

[Tgace]

View attachment $police1.jpg

View attachment $machine-Police.jpg

My Chief just told me he came across an early 1900's photograph of an officer from our dept with hand grenades. Apparently during the first Red Scare police were training to fight infantry style battles.



PS-THAT'S a "Machine Gun".

 

[Tgace]

[h=3][/h]What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.


[h=3]Ecclesiastes 1:9[/h]

 

[Tgace]

If that's too worrisome, watch him in the morning for a couple of days and arrest him when he goes to his car for work.

We do that ALL the time...we call it a "road kill".

 

[Tgace]

http://blog.modernmechanix.com/bullet-bouncer-on-car-saves-police-from-thugs/#more


Those cops and their "tanks" what happened to "protect and serve"? Wheres "officer friendly"??

 

[ballen0351]

A gambler? Send two uniformed cops to the door. When he comes to answer, tell him he's under arrest. If that's too worrisome, watch him in the morning for a couple of days and arrest him when he goes to his car for work.

And when you knock he says screw you barricades himself inside?
Reminds me of a story on Tampa IRS agent goes to arrest a guy on a warrant for not paying taxes. Not big deal it was like 13000 in taxes of I remember . IRS agent knocks in door guy let's him inside. IRS agent say he has a warrant and the guy freaks and stabbs him to death. So now what? We say oh well it'd his job as long as we don't offend anyone. Police serve 10s of thousands of warrantsa year and a small % ate messed up. But there is a real reason we do things the way we do. Its not to look "cool" or feel like a Navy Seal.

 

[jks9199]

...raising awareness. But no, there's more than that--it's a trend of increasing paramilitary police.

Small-Town Police Departments Are Getting Billions In Big Military Hardware

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Sounds like someone's abusing the intent of the program. Not surprised; it's pretty much guaranteed. But you might also want to look deeper. For example, that chief in GA may be the chair or host of the regional rescue/dive unit that might encompass several departments. And the guy in TX? He's probable a golden child to the residents and council... after all he's getting "all this stuff from Uncle Sugar!" Maybe some of those equipment sales or grants should be better documented and better justified -- but if they played the game, they got the stuff, y'know?

The DHS grants go a lot of directions; for several years, my salary and some other costs were paid by federal grants related to fighting gangs.

 

[jks9199]

A gambler? Send two uniformed cops to the door. When he comes to answer, tell him he's under arrest. If that's too worrisome, watch him in the morning for a couple of days and arrest him when he goes to his car for work.

Did you read the report published by Fairfax County PD? It explains why they used the approach and tactics that they did.

 

[arnisador]

Did you read the report published by Fairfax County PD? It explains why they used the approach and tactics that they did.

I did. Sounds like their massive firepower approach resulted in a needless death to me.