marques
Master Black Belt
Self defence: 15 min warm-up (which was already a chaotic fighting environment), 15 min grappling (most stand up), 15 min striking, 15 min sparring.
Muay Thai: warm-up, combinations and sometimes sparring.
How long to complete your style?
- Thread starter DanT
- Start date
Muay Thai: warm-up, combinations and sometimes sparring.
Spent twenty years training well over twenty hours a week, sometimes thirty. That's not counting taking eight hours a week of instruction as well. (hard instruction from good men) As well as teaching classes. As well as competing in hundreds of competitions.Ten of those years was working a full time job, too. All the while caring for an elderly parent and two dogs.
It's why I always brought my instructors down to do seminars, all the time. Then they could teach class instead of me, and I could train in the seminar, which were not only instructional, but massive workouts. It's called time management. Took me years to set things up that way, but it worked like a Swiss watch.
Day started at 4 a.m. Usually ended at midnight or so. Hardly enough sleep, but you napped when you could.
Twenty years, bro. No time off, other than a couple rest days a week, where you would only dabble for a few hours of stretching and maybe do a thousand sit ups.
One of my instructors, Billy Blanks, made that schedule look like being unemployed. He trained all day, every day (other than when flying some place.) Never missed a day training, not on his wedding day, not when his kids were born, not when he broke a leg and was in a cast. Crazy, I know, but here's a lot of that out there.
If you think any of that is BS, you really have no idea how a lot of people train. a LOT of people.
It's why I always brought my instructors down to do seminars, all the time. Then they could teach class instead of me, and I could train in the seminar, which were not only instructional, but massive workouts. It's called time management. Took me years to set things up that way, but it worked like a Swiss watch.
Day started at 4 a.m. Usually ended at midnight or so. Hardly enough sleep, but you napped when you could.
Twenty years, bro. No time off, other than a couple rest days a week, where you would only dabble for a few hours of stretching and maybe do a thousand sit ups.
One of my instructors, Billy Blanks, made that schedule look like being unemployed. He trained all day, every day (other than when flying some place.) Never missed a day training, not on his wedding day, not when his kids were born, not when he broke a leg and was in a cast. Crazy, I know, but here's a lot of that out there.
If you think any of that is BS, you really have no idea how a lot of people train. a LOT of people.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I am going to kind of define "completing the style" as having learned all of the formal curriculum, with some reasonable level of competency.
My system has something like 16 or 18 empty hand forms, and just about the same number of weapons forms.
The problem is, different branches sometimes incorporate material from other systems, or create some of their own forms. Of course this material would only be present in those particular lineages, so it makes it difficult to definitively identify the "official" curriculum of the system. Keep in mind, these older systems developed over time, and often the material currently in the system was developed or adopted by different people along the way. It usually was not created in its current incarnation all at once. So this is a natural process, and what the curriculum is now may not have been what it was 100 or 200 years ago, or what it will be 100 or 200 years from now.
I've not learned the whole system, as far as it exists within my lineage. Having a child and some other personal obligations, cut short my time with my sifu, but I learned a lot from him, certainly enough, or more than enough.
One ought to have developed skill and competence long before completing the system. Once that is accomplished, it is debateable whether or not learning the rest of the system adds any real value. My position is, the material is all just a training tool meant to help you train and develop your skill. You don't need it all, in order to develop that skill, and once you develop that skill, learning the rest may not be important at all.
I feel that if you learn additional material, it is valuable to have. But at the same time, if you do not learn the additional material, you aren't actually missing anything.
That being said, I think that a dedicated student could complete the system in my lineage in somewhere between ten and fifteen years.
Something else to keep in mind: a huge system with a never-ending curriculum is unwieldy and becomes impossible to practice. There isn't enough time in the day or days in the year to practice it all with any real depth and meaning. At some point ya gotta be willingto say, "I've got enough".
My system has something like 16 or 18 empty hand forms, and just about the same number of weapons forms.
The problem is, different branches sometimes incorporate material from other systems, or create some of their own forms. Of course this material would only be present in those particular lineages, so it makes it difficult to definitively identify the "official" curriculum of the system. Keep in mind, these older systems developed over time, and often the material currently in the system was developed or adopted by different people along the way. It usually was not created in its current incarnation all at once. So this is a natural process, and what the curriculum is now may not have been what it was 100 or 200 years ago, or what it will be 100 or 200 years from now.
I've not learned the whole system, as far as it exists within my lineage. Having a child and some other personal obligations, cut short my time with my sifu, but I learned a lot from him, certainly enough, or more than enough.
One ought to have developed skill and competence long before completing the system. Once that is accomplished, it is debateable whether or not learning the rest of the system adds any real value. My position is, the material is all just a training tool meant to help you train and develop your skill. You don't need it all, in order to develop that skill, and once you develop that skill, learning the rest may not be important at all.
I feel that if you learn additional material, it is valuable to have. But at the same time, if you do not learn the additional material, you aren't actually missing anything.
That being said, I think that a dedicated student could complete the system in my lineage in somewhere between ten and fifteen years.
Something else to keep in mind: a huge system with a never-ending curriculum is unwieldy and becomes impossible to practice. There isn't enough time in the day or days in the year to practice it all with any real depth and meaning. At some point ya gotta be willingto say, "I've got enough".
marques
Master Black Belt
I admire that motivation. In the old times, we could say that there were not many things to do or so (being true or not), but these days...
I train 1.5h one day, and only 48h later I am motivated for more 1.5h.
And in the past, I did not even find the time to go to the doctor to ask for the required cert to start training... God(s) bless you.
I admire that motivation. In the old times, we could say that there were not many things to do or so (being true or not), but these days...
I train 1.5h one day, and only 48h later I am motivated for more 1.5h.
I always considered myself one of the luckiest people on earth. Because, man, you can imagine how much fun that actually is. You know, if you like Martial Arts and all that.
After my twenty years of full time Martial Arts, I lived here on Maui in the nineties. Used to fly to L.A every month and spend a week at Billy's house. (Blanks) I'd catch a red eye on Sunday night. Our days started by getting up at 5, s, shower and shave, get to his gym by six (which was already opened and running by his assistant instructors)
He would teach a Tae-bo class at six, which I would take. Then at seven, I would teach a fitness class, he'd teach another Tae-bo class. At eight I'd teach a fighting class, usually consisting of grappling and street fighting. At nine I'd teach a Tae-kwon-do class to his morning students. From ten to eleven, we'd lift, every day, keying on different parts of the body (obviously). Then, sometimes we'd do road work, sometimes bag work, sometimes spar. At noon, we would leave (classes still going on, they went on all day, it was the busiest dojo, or busiest gym I have seen to this day.)
We would go the plaza next door, pick up food, whole chickens, sandwiches, salads, eat while we drove, go back to his house, fall on the couches, eat, yack and nap. At three thirty we'd shower and head back to the gym - where the main work started. We'd teach class, spar, do pushups, sit ups and planks, do Tae-bo, grapple, skip rope, teach or take Tae-kwon-Do class, fitness class, boxing class. I'd usually teach a couple of privates, (at ridiculous L.A prices, but work out along with the client)
We would leave at ten (sometimes nine thirty) He call three different restaurants on the way home and have them deliver massive amounts of food to his house. We'd gorge and talk about the day, about so and so getting better, and so and so being a lazy bum and did you see that kick, and what a great choke that was blah, blah blah. Then we'd go to bed, falling asleep in about three and a half seconds. We did that Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday - the dojo was closed on Sunday and I'd fly home. This went on for four years. Every month. The rest of the time I trained here. Fitness, Tae-bo, BJJ, taught in a Tang-Soo-do school several nights a week, worked out with some other old guys. We called ourselves "The snap, crackle pop club".
How many hours a week was that? All of them, I guess.
To this day, it's the most fun I ever had.
EDIT - P.S.
I'll bet my bottom dollar that anyone here would have done the same thing given the opportunity to do so if your lifestyle allowed it. (Oh, yes you would!)
OP
OP
DanT
2nd Black Belt
Interesting. What style of tai chi do you do? Yang or Chen? Also I'm interested in tai chi's curriculum, do you have multiple forms or just a few, and is the combat throw based or striking base?
Sounds like fun, Buka. I think I always had too many other interests for that to happen. Not sure I ever had that exercise ethic, either.I always considered myself one of the luckiest people on earth. Because, man, you can imagine how much fun that actually is. You know, if you like Martial Arts and all that.
After my twenty years of full time Martial Arts, I lived here on Maui in the nineties. Used to fly to L.A every month and spend a week at Billy's house. (Blanks) I'd catch a red eye on Sunday night. Our days started by getting up at 5, s, shower and shave, get to his gym by six (which was already opened and running by his assistant instructors)
He would teach a Tae-bo class at six, which I would take. Then at seven, I would teach a fitness class, he'd teach another Tae-bo class. At eight I'd teach a fighting class, usually consisting of grappling and street fighting. At nine I'd teach a Tae-kwon-do class to his morning students. From ten to eleven, we'd lift, every day, keying on different parts of the body (obviously). Then, sometimes we'd do road work, sometimes bag work, sometimes spar. At noon, we would leave (classes still going on, they went on all day, it was the busiest dojo, or busiest gym I have seen to this day.)
We would go the plaza next door, pick up food, whole chickens, sandwiches, salads, eat while we drove, go back to his house, fall on the couches, eat, yack and nap. At three thirty we'd shower and head back to the gym - where the main work started. We'd teach class, spar, do pushups, sit ups and planks, do Tae-bo, grapple, skip rope, teach or take Tae-kwon-Do class, fitness class, boxing class. I'd usually teach a couple of privates, (at ridiculous L.A prices, but work out along with the client)
We would leave at ten (sometimes nine thirty) He call three different restaurants on the way home and have them deliver massive amounts of food to his house. We'd gorge and talk about the day, about so and so getting better, and so and so being a lazy bum and did you see that kick, and what a great choke that was blah, blah blah. Then we'd go to bed, falling asleep in about three and a half seconds. We did that Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday - the dojo was closed on Sunday and I'd fly home. This went on for four years. Every month. The rest of the time I trained here. Fitness, Tae-bo, BJJ, taught in a Tang-Soo-do school several nights a week, worked out with some other old guys. We called ourselves "The snap, crackle pop club".
How many hours a week was that? All of them, I guess.
To this day, it's the most fun I ever had.
EDIT - P.S.
I'll bet my bottom dollar that anyone here would have done the same thing given the opportunity to do so if your lifestyle allowed it. (Oh, yes you would!)
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Traditional Yang, Tung Ying Chieh lineage, multiple forms (both slow and fast), weapon forms, push hand drills, associated qigong. There is a lot of Qinna in the Yang I do.
Chen from various people, no claimed lineage, but mostly on the Chen Zhenglei side of things, fewer forms and some push hand drills.
There are throws and strikes in both.
Taijiquan, to use it properly takes a long time. To apply it and use it improperly does not take as long.
I just thought about it and realized that this hasn't been true in over a year. I'm down to averaging 8-12 hours per week, which is probably more sustainable for me. The year I was awarded my BJJ black belt I bumped up my training to 12-15 hours weekly in an effort to catch up to what I felt should be the standard for the rank. It was fun, but exhausting and did take time/energy from other pursuits.
I don't think Jow Ga has an end point. For example, no one that I know of has ever said if you train for X amount of time, the you would complete Jow Ga. Proficient in all aspects would be a moving bar based on what the Sifu would consider proficient. Not once in my own mind have I thought that I would complete Jow Ga. To become Proficient in as many techniques as possible is pretty much where I am now so I guess there won't be an end for me.
Quoted for Truth.
In Western Boxing, you can "learn" the entire curriculum in an afternoon. Becoming really good at it takes many years of hard work.
In contrast, BJJ has a potentially infinite number of "techniques". I'm not sure anyone really knows all of them, since new ones are being developed practically every day. Nevertheless, I don't think anyone would accuse someone like Rickson Gracie of not having mastered the art just because he's not familiar with the latest developments in application of the Worm Guard. All those myriad techniques are just applications of a much smaller number of fundamental principles. Once you've internalized the concepts you can always invent new techniques to express them.
OP
OP
DanT
2nd Black Belt
I'm very interested in tai chi but have little time for an extra style. Improving and learning two is enough for me rn. I really wish I could learn it because it seems so interesting to me. Striking wise are there many types of punches (hooks, straights, uppercuts, etc?) and what about kicks?
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
In the Yang I do there are palm strikes, elbow strikes, back fist, jab and a hook, but not so much. In the little Chen I know there is pretty much the same with a few added strikes. But the focus in not on striking, it is however an option. It is far from the amount of striking you see in other arts.
There are not all that many these days that are interested in Taiji as a martial art and of those that are not many want to take the time it takes to develop it as it should be. Back when I did teach I had people get offended and walk out when I mentioned it was a martial art.
I apologize for not being clear. My comment wasn't in regards to completing a system. I was referring to being proficient in a system. Not mastering it but being proficient. I believe you and be skilled in an art without knowing the "complete" system.
paitingman
Brown Belt
You cannot complete taekwondo but I would agree that after about 10 years you have proficiency. By then you are probably considered a master, or even earlier who knows.
Idk if anyone here has experience with straight razors but I sort of view it like this:
It doesn't take much to get a shaving sharp edge (proficiency). You can get an edge to cut hair off 800 grit sandpaper if you wanted. You can use it now sure. But there's no way in a hell you should want to shave with it. Passed this point you need to refine and polish this edge and take it to higher and higher grits. (True mastery and beyond)
Visually it's hard to see the difference and both edges will shave. But you will definitely FEEL the difference.
How far you polish your edge(skills) and how long it takes depends on the person. But a few years will get you sharp for sure.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Idk if anyone here has experience with straight razors but I sort of view it like this:
It doesn't take much to get a shaving sharp edge (proficiency). You can get an edge to cut hair off 800 grit sandpaper if you wanted. You can use it now sure. But there's no way in a hell you should want to shave with it. Passed this point you need to refine and polish this edge and take it to higher and higher grits. (True mastery and beyond)
Visually it's hard to see the difference and both edges will shave. But you will definitely FEEL the difference.
How far you polish your edge(skills) and how long it takes depends on the person. But a few years will get you sharp for sure.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Bingo. I've been saying this for a few years. The curriculum shouldn't be about solutions. Rather, they are about building principles, with enough examples and suggestions to then be able to come up with your own solutions regardless of what happens.
I've trained in some systems that seem to me to try and offer all of the solutions. ALL of them. Very cumbersome approach, in my opinion.
Agreed. In my approach to NGA, there are some "Classical Techniques" I teach as being esoteric. They teach useful principles and force the student to use them in interesting isolations that are not directly related to application (specific solutions). In helping a student solve a problem in applying a specific technique to a specific attack, I often draw on a principle taught in a different Classical Technique. The core curriculum (the Classical Techniques) is about learning the principles and developing a wide range of approaches. The more advanced the student gets, often the more they play in what I call the "grey spaces" between techniques.
ShortBridge
3rd Black Belt
The monkey king declared that Jacob Stone completed his training after only 2 months.
Anyone?
Anyone?
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Who?
I heard it was 5 weeks.
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