How fast is too fast?

[Sepanto]

In our dojo, which i joined a few months ago, there are guys who are 8 years and are only green belt, yet they kick the assess of self-prounounced black belts who trained for only a year or two.

 

[searcher]

I would like to add to my previous statement about things that may not be seen. I started TKD after having trained for several years in other styles. That is something that may not be known to others in the class. Only the instructor knew that I had previous training. I asked him to run me through the format as if I had just walked in with no previous training. It worked for a little while, but my rank testing was by far faster than anybody else in the school. I am a firm believer that there are many things that people don't know that would change their opinion on why some are moving past them in rank.

Rank is a way for instructors to know where you are at and what you need to be working on. Try running a group of 100 students and remember where everyone is at all the time. It is very difficult.

 

[twendkata71]

I think that people try to start teaching too soon. Just because they are a black belt doesn't automatically mean that they are able or should be teaching. I would say no earlier than 3rd dan to start teaching on their own. 1st and 2nd dan can start to teach under supervision. Really shodan is just a higher level of beginner.
That is why there is shodan ho(probationary shodan). To some of us the black belt is still an important and respected thing that we do not rush into or take lightly.
In the early 50's and 60's it was a rare thing for someone to make black belt/ or shodan. So, rare in fact that a person holding a black belt was well respected in the community. Now, it has become so easy (in the publics eye) because of mcdojo's and poor commercial schools, to get a black belt that people really do not think much of a person that has attained the black belt. Also in the 50's and 60.s it was rare for anyone to have higher than a 5th dan. Heck, when Funakoshi died in 1957 he was a 5th dan. Now there are 10th dans everywhere. But, that is another subject all together. Sorry if I went a bit offtopic.

 

[PeaceWarrior]

At my school, it took our only blackbelt almost fifteen years to earn it, but you can tell his skill level is great. At our school, there isnt a set time frame but when Sifu sees youre ready for something, he lets you know. Belts are done in the same way.

Yeah the whole McDojo thing is kinda irritating, because you get these 10-15 year old black belts with puffed up egos and little discipline. The only reason one so young can claim a blackbelt is if they dont know what a blackbelt really is. IMO 18 should be the minimum age for BB. Otherwise I agree with whats been said about time and effort vs "belt dispensers."

Peace

Keith

 

[Naha]

One of the things I have tried to stress to my son over the years is that the belts are meaningless. If a person is a brown belt and there are blue belts that have better techniques, then they are in better shape. Concentrate on the knowledge; the belts take care of themselves. Of course, he has friends at a local TKD establishment that are gaining belts every month or two (black belt in about a year). However, what he points out to me is how flawed their basics are. They make fundamental mistakes in techniques. Anybody can buy a belt. AWMA doesn't ask for credentials when they sell one.

 

[KempoFlow]

I study at a Villari's school, and it takes a minimum of little over 4 years to achieve the first black belt.

**Edited to add that I am not sure how long it takes to get through the brown belt levels. It could be longer than that. I posted the 4 years based on getting through the brown stripes in the same average time as the lower belts.

 

[twendkata71]

It took me 5 years to get shodan. I had several months off for a broken ankle though. The average in our organization is 3 1/2 -4 years. Even when I was training in Matsubayashi Shorin ryu the average was 4 years.

 

[ISMA girl]

this is a hard one if you think about original training vs training today.
if schools tried to train the old way most would be in court everyday.
all ranks before black (to me) are just foundation if you have a solid foundation then you are ready to build the house. In the age case that to is questionable there are alot of factors to consider. i.e my son 11yrs old my daughter 9yrs old and myself 32yrs old have been training for the same amount of time we hold the same rank of 3rd kyu brown all of us train extremely hard along with being well disciplined and respectful and all the other things said to make a black belt a black belt. so why should I receive a bb before my children who train just as hard as me. That is why there is a title of jr black belt which has a different meaning and expections from an adult. i don't believe in handing blackbelts out for children or adults. it must be earned.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

this is a hard one if you think about original training vs training today.
if schools tried to train the old way most would be in court everyday.
all ranks before black (to me) are just foundation if you have a solid foundation then you are ready to build the house. In the age case that to is questionable there are alot of factors to consider. i.e my son 11yrs old my daughter 9yrs old and myself 32yrs old have been training for the same amount of time we hold the same rank of 3rd kyu brown all of us train extremely hard along with being well disciplined and respectful and all the other things said to make a black belt a black belt. so why should I receive a bb before my children who train just as hard as me. That is why there is a title of jr black belt which has a different meaning and expections from an adult. i don't believe in handing blackbelts out for children or adults. it must be earned.

I agree - provided your children, and it does not sound like they would, do not develop either overconfidence as a result of their rank or an attitude. Also, care must be taken that they do not become a target of school challenges because they're "black belts". In Japan, which developed the Dan system and belt colours, young folks often hold dans. It's only in the U.S., with its false image of the shodan as martial arts expert who can defeat all comers, that there is a problem. BTW, welcome to Martial Talk and its great to see you so involved with your children's lives!

 

[ISMA girl]

I agree - provided your children, and it does not sound like they would, do not develop either overconfidence as a result of their rank or an attitude. Also, care must be taken that they do not become a target of school challenges because they're "black belts". In Japan, which developed the Dan system and belt colours, young folks often hold dans. It's only in the U.S., with its false image of the shodan as martial arts expert who can defeat all comers, that there is a problem. BTW, welcome to Martial Talk and its great to see you so involved with your children's lives!

your right my children don't have egos my children have great attitudes and they only blame themselves for mistakes they never blame anyone or any thing else. my children compete and they usually(not to brag) place at least 3rd and their divisions are very large 20+ and like i said they don't have egos. competition to them is a way to learn and better themselves it's not about winning. If they learn something they have won. i will not have it any other way.

 

[bignick]

this is a hard one if you think about original training vs training today.
if schools tried to train the old way most would be in court everyday.
all ranks before black (to me) are just foundation if you have a solid foundation then you are ready to build the house. In the age case that to is questionable there are alot of factors to consider. i.e my son 11yrs old my daughter 9yrs old and myself 32yrs old have been training for the same amount of time we hold the same rank of 3rd kyu brown all of us train extremely hard along with being well disciplined and respectful and all the other things said to make a black belt a black belt. so why should I receive a bb before my children who train just as hard as me. That is why there is a title of jr black belt which has a different meaning and expections from an adult. i don't believe in handing blackbelts out for children or adults. it must be earned.

If schools trained the way they did in the old days, there wouldn't be any black belts to worry about...

 

[JackShadow]

I havent read this whole thread but I do wish to comment on it.

Promoting someone based on their time in is one of my biggest pet peeves. Someone should be promoted based on skill and dedication. I join the martial arts at age 5 and have been in it for 12 years now. According to your sensi's system, I would of had a black belt by age 8 or 9. To me this just seems wrong. I was a very hyper child and didn't learn much of anything untill I was 11 or 12 and didnt really boom untill after 14. My sensi didn't promote me because I had time in but only when I was ready for my belt.

I'm not attack your style or sensi, but I just believe the rank should be based on the perfection of your martial abilities and not just on time in. I hate it when I see brown belts and black belts doing half-thrown together katas that look like they could of come from blue and purple belts.

 

[shoshinkan]

about 5 years to shodan, and I dont teach kids, min age to train is 16.

Its a guide and not fixed as people are individuals and rank is simply a recognition of skill/attitude, and an increase in responsability given by the Sensei to the student,

Of course our ego's often tell us different............

 

[Robert Lee]

I havent read this whole thread but I do wish to comment on it.

Promoting someone based on their time in is one of my biggest pet peeves. Someone should be promoted based on skill and dedication. I join the martial arts at age 5 and have been in it for 12 years now. According to your sensi's system, I would of had a black belt by age 8 or 9. To me this just seems wrong. I was a very hyper child and didn't learn much of anything untill I was 11 or 12 and didnt really boom untill after 14. My sensi didn't promote me because I had time in but only when I was ready for my belt.

I'm not attack your style or sensi, but I just believe the rank should be based on the perfection of your martial abilities and not just on time in. I hate it when I see brown belts and black belts doing half-thrown together katas that look like they could of come from blue and purple belts.

Many instructors do this But on an average It takes 3 to 5 years to test for shodan. Some people do not train as others or do not learn as well. These people take longer. As for being young. Well used to be any person under 16 was never promoted to a full black belt. But could make junior black belt and retest at 16 for a full black belt. 3 hour and a half classes a week PLUS plenty of training between classes. 3 to 5 years is a fare time. Depends on style.

 

[JackShadow]

Yeah, there was a tournament I went to a year or two back and we were short on peole to judge. So we pulled all the available black belts. As it turned out there were two or three kids, when I say kids I mean they were ten or under, who were black belts and were allowed to judge.

These kids were not scoreing right and would give extra points to people they knew or were from their school. It was very annoying and it was brought up by many people. Since then it hasnt happened, but it serves as a good example. Their skill was slightly impressive for their age, but not anything too special, and nothing worth a black belt. They also lacked the mentality of a higher rank and shold never of been allowed to judge.

My point I'm getting at is that I do agree that full black belts should only be given to older students, but I dont think a set age limit should be imposed. People have different maturity rates and skill levels. Promotion should be done on an individual basis. I dont enjoy seeing a school that promotes very quickly just to claim so many black belts. My instructor has only promoted around 15 people to Sho Dan in 20+ years and one was given posthumously. I believe its mainly because of him that I feel so strongly about earning your black belt and not just paying for it.

 

[twendkata71]

I don't think that kid black belt under the age of 16 should be allowed to judge in tournaments. They are not ready for that. Especially in kumite competition. Maybe lower level (yellow,blue,green) kata competition. In many styles junior black belt are marked with a white stripe running the length of their black belt to set them apart from adult black belts.

 

[JackShadow]

I did help judge local, smaller tournaments when I first got my black belt at around age 15. But I haven't started judging larger ones untill recently out of repsect for myself and others.

 

[twendkata71]

It is a good idea if you are not that experienced as a judge to take a referee course at either an AAU,USAKF, or USANKF event. It will make you a much better referee.

 

[Drag'n]

Personally I think 3 years is too fast, if you're only training 2~3 times per week. I've seen waaay too many guys sporting black belts who just dont deserve it.
I agree that it shouldnt be a matter of time, but a matter of skill and dedication. But to reach the level of proficiency expected from a black belt, you're going to have to put some serious training time in.
While it is possible to get a black belt in 4 years at my present dojo, not many do.
I'm about to test for my shodan this weekend. I've been with this dojo for 4 years, training 3~4 times a week. But I had 10 years previous training in other styles. Some guys who were my sempai when I started are still brown belts.
In my style, to get a black belt is not just to show you've learned the basics. You have to prove yourself a strong and capable fighter with unbreakable fighting spirit. You have to be willing to go beyond what the average guy is capable of doing.
This is pretty typical in kyokushin influenced styles.
If you're wearing a black belt you'll be expected to prove your superior skills in kumite every time you step on the mat with another fighter.
I dont think black belts should be given to people just because they've done their time and covered the required curricculum.
In some dojos the shodan is still something to be respected.
I prefer it that way. It makes the acheivement of earning one so much more fulfilling.
I got my first black belt relatively easily and it means little to me.

 

[cstanley]

In most Okinawan karate ryu, it is between 3 and 4 years. 3 years is ok if the student trains regularly. Less than that seems too fast for me. But, some instructors drag the time out artificially and call it "high standards." I don't think that is necessary. A serious, good student can do it in 3-4 years. I have sometimes heard 15 years to fifth dan. That is 3 years per dan. That seems right.