How effective is the striking art?

[Kung Fu Wang]

What if the wrestler is getting a punch in the face and low heel kick to the shin at the same time.
In Wing Chun kicking range and punching range can be exactly the same thing , and often happen simultaneously.

Everybody have to deal with low kicks (below the knee) and high kicks (above the knee). By bending the leg at the knee joint to escape all low kicks (below knee) should be the common solution for all MA styles. Still the "full blow head shots" is the main concern here.

 

[mook jong man]

The low heel kick to the shin is the price that everybody will have to pay when get into the full contact sport. By bending the leg at the knee joint to escape all below knee kicks should be the common solution for all MA styles. Still the "full blow head shots" is the main concern here.

Oh I am not talking sport , I am talking about a full powered low heel kick to the shin with shoes on.
The way it was meant to be done.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Oh I am not talking sport , I am talking about a full powered low heel kick to the shin with shoes on.
The way it was meant to be done.

Besides bending the leg at the knee joint to allow the shin kick to pass under the knee, you can also reduce the angle between the knee to the ground to allow the shin stepping to slide off your shin bone to the ground. IMO, the best solution is the "chain kicks" that you pull your leg back and step back on your opponent's shin. Your opponent's shin stepping will give your chance to apply your shin stepping back.

There are solution for everything. But the "full powerful punch on the head" is still a much more serious issue. Most of the time, a kick is not the end the fight move but a full force head shot is. When you leg is broken, you will still live. When you have a concussion, you may die.

 

[Kframe]

I think that, based on my mma experience it is easier for a grappler to get his way, IE take down and or grapple a striker, then it is for a striker to keep a grappler at bay.
Now the moment I learned some TD defense, that all changed as I was a good boxer and then I was able to hold my own.

 

[mook jong man]

Besides bending the leg at the knee joint to allow the shin kick to pass under the knee, you can also reduce the angle between the knee to the ground to allow the shin stepping to slide off to the ground. IMO, the best solution is the "chain kicks" that you pull your leg back and step back on your opponent's shin.

There are solution for everything. But the "full powerful punch on the head" is still a much more serious issue.

That's fantastic , just one problem , how do you know which leg is going to kick , both feet are equal distance from you , at least in my lineages stance.
These things are not telegraphed at all , and come out at the speed of a Wing Chun punch.
They also are not going to retract the leg and try again either, they are going to step down deep into your center and punch you in the face.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That's fantastic , just one problem , how do you know which leg is going to kick , both feet are equal distance from you , at least in my lineages stance.
These things are not telegraphed at all , and come out at the speed of a Wing Chun punch.

I know exactly the move that you are talking about. A left Tan Shou, right punch to the face, and right (or left) reverse side kick to the shin bone. That reverse side kick is used quite often in wrestling as well. In wrestling, it's call "迎门踢(Yin Men Ti) - facing door kick".

Something like this?

Your kicking leg still have to start from no speed, to some speed, and end with full speed. The moment that your leg lift off the ground, that telegraphing.

The "knee bending" or "leg pulling" should be trained to react when your opponent's kick has landed on your low leg already. You then bend you leg. It's the last moment reaction. It's not 100% guranteed but that's the best reaction that you can find in all MA styles. The most common reaction for a wrestler is to bend knee, let your skin stepping to pass, and then sweep back behind your ankle.

Again, if all kicks can be avoided, nobody will train kicking. That's a paradox.

 

[mook jong man]

Your kicking leg still have to start from no speed, to some speed, and end with full speed. The moment that your leg lift off the ground, that telegraphing.

The "knee bending" or "leg pulling" should be trained to react when your opponent's kick has landed on your low leg. You then bend you leg at the last moment. It's not 100% guranteed but that's the best reaction that you can find in all MA styles. The most common reaction for a wrestler is to bend knee, let your skin stepping to pass, and then sweep back behind your ankle.

I wouldn't say it was the best defence , bit defensive for my liking.
If your familiar with the Huen Bo circle step from the Wing Chun Biu Tze , you can circle your leg around the inside of the attempted kick , making it miss and still be able to step forward , upset his balance and punch him in the face.

 

[K-man]

A wrestler in his 30 who has regular job, wife and kids, mortgage payment, want to train in MMA format, don't mind to take body shots, or full force kicks on the body, but don't want to receive "full force head shots".

No one in their 30s who have a regular job, wives and kids, mortgage payments etc, wants to receive "full force head shots". For most of us, MAs are a lifestyle choice. Being beaten up is not an option.

What we are discussing is hypothetical.
:asian:

 

[drop bear]

What if the wrestler is getting a punch in the face and low heel kick to the shin at the same time.
In Wing Chun kicking range and punching range can be exactly the same thing , and often happen simultaneously.

Worst way to defend a takedown. It gets tried with our guys when they first spar and discarded very quickly. Striking needs to be done aggressively to put the grappler on the back foot forcing his shoots to come from further back. If you are in the process of being taken down you have to defend your structure not strike.

A takedown is pretty much the destruction of their structure and it for the most part negates the ability to hit with power.

You can shoot into a persons knee strike which will kick your head off but it is hard to time.

 

[drop bear]

Besides bending the leg at the knee joint to allow the shin kick to pass under the knee, you can also reduce the angle between the knee to the ground to allow the shin stepping to slide off your shin bone to the ground. IMO, the best solution is the "chain kicks" that you pull your leg back and step back on your opponent's shin. Your opponent's shin stepping will give your chance to apply your shin stepping back.

There are solution for everything. But the "full powerful punch on the head" is still a much more serious issue. Most of the time, a kick is not the end the fight move but a full force head shot is. When you leg is broken, you will still live. When you have a concussion, you may die.

You are going to struggle to hit any point on the head that will knock a guy out from the position they are coming in on from there. Turning off throwing hooks or uppercuts yes. Straight shots not so much.

 

[K-man]

You are going to struggle to hit any point on the head that will knock a guy out from the position they are coming in on from there. Turning off throwing hooks or uppercuts yes. Straight shots not so much.

Downward elbow strikes work a treat.

 

[drop bear]

Downward elbow strikes work a treat.

Depends if you can access your hips and legs. Which the guy shooting is trying to take that access away. That is part of the function of the takedown.

Otherwise it will perform like the guillotine which helps the takedown a bit and is now a frowned upon defence.

Honestly if I was going to strike it would be upward forearm which should work in my favor a bit to spoil that shoot.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I'm still testing this "anti_striking" strategy. My guys had tried this strategy for 3 rounds yesterday in the class. The score was:


- 3 clinches to 0 head shot, and
- 2 clinches to 1 head shot.


The only round that the head shot was scored was because one guy used the body shot to set up a head shot. If his opponent just took that body shot and traded with clinch, that round won't even be scored. My guys will test this strategy in local MMA gym and accumulate the testing result until I have enough data to have more faith in this approach.

 

[drop bear]

I'm still testing this "anti_striking" strategy. My guys had tried this strategy for 3 rounds yesterday in the class. The score was:


- 3 clinches to 0 head shot, and
- 2 clinches to 1 head shot.


The only round that the head shot was scored was because one guy used the body shot to set up a head shot. If his opponent just took that body shot and traded with clinch, that round won't even be scored. My guys will test this strategy in local MMA gym and accumulate the testing result until I have enough data to have more faith in this approach.

Bear in mind at a mma gym they use grappling to create striking opportunities. So it won't really be grappling vs striking anymore. It will be grappling and striking vs grappling.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Bear in mind at a mma gym they use grappling to create striking opportunities. So it won't really be grappling vs striking anymore. It will be grappling and striking vs grappling.

What do you mean by using grappling to create striking opportunities? When you are in clinch, the striking won't be effective any more. That's the purpose that you want to get into clinch ASAP. How will you be able to punch at your opponent if your opponent get you into a clinch like this?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

What do you mean by using grappling to create striking opportunities? When you are in clinch, the striking won't be effective any more. That's the purpose that you want to get into clinch ASAP. How will you be able to punch at your opponent if your opponent get you into a clinch like this?

Watch Randy Couture fight. He uses his wrestling skills in the clinch to set up his "dirty boxing" strike. Watch Anderson Silva's destruction of Rich Franklin using the Muay Thai-style clinch to set up his knees.

The idea is that if you have the grappling skills to control the clinch you can establish a superior position for striking or for takedowns, depending on your objectives. It's a pretty deep area of study.

 

[sopraisso]

From my "old style" Okinawan karate perspective, this whole discussion makes so little sense. Nearly all my striking techniques and tactics are used along with some grappling applications simultaneously. Actually I believe it's safe to say pure grappling or pure striking arts are a modern thing and will hardly really reflect the optimal ways of unarmed fighting. You look for old style boxing, fencing, muay thai (i.e. muay boran), jujutsu, karate and almost any other old martial art: they all involve both striking AND grappling, frequently used in conjunction.

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[Kung Fu Wang]

Watch Randy Couture fight. He uses his wrestling skills in the clinch to set up his "dirty boxing" strike. Watch Anderson Silva's destruction of Rich Franklin using the Muay Thai-style clinch to set up his knees.

The idea is that if you have the grappling skills to control the clinch you can establish a superior position for striking or for takedowns, depending on your objectives. It's a pretty deep area of study.

Of course in the head lock picture, when your left arm give your opponent a head lock, your right hand can punch on his face. But your opponent is not able to punch you in that position.

It may be more effective to use clinch to take your opponent down ASAP, you than take your time and strike him when his is on the ground.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

From my "old style" Okinawan karate perspective, this whole discussion makes so little sense. Nearly all my striking techniques and tactics are used along with some grappling applications simultaneously. Actually I believe it's safe to say pure grappling or pure striking arts are a modern thing and will hardly really reflect the optimal ways of unarmed fighting. You look for old style boxing, fencing, muay thai (i.e. muay boran), jujutsu, karate and almost any other old martial art: they all involve both striking AND grappling, frequently used in conjunction.

Enviado de meu GT-I9300 usando Tapatalk

Agree! The "pure grappling" is pretty much defined by western wrestling and Judo that striking is absolutely not allowed. The CMA "head lock" is executed from a haymaker. You use the bone edge of your forearm to hit on the back of your opponent's head, knock him out half way, get him into a head lock, take him down, and then punch him some more.

You can see a "hidden" haymaker in this "front cut" throw. When you do that in "sport", even the referee won't be able to tell whether or not you have used your arm to hit on your opponent's head before you take him down.

A good throw should integrated with both striking and take down.

 

[drop bear]

What do you mean by using grappling to create striking opportunities? When you are in clinch, the striking won't be effective any more. That's the purpose that you want to get into clinch ASAP. How will you be able to punch at your opponent if your opponent get you into a clinch like this?

The method we use is called the slippery gypsy. You pretty much make yourself hard to hang on to.