How does your WC deal with going to the ground...

[KPM]

Yes, absolutely!!! I agree 100%! Good Yip Man Wing Chun has lots of options once one dissects the forms, etc. Well said Joy!

If you have never trained for ground-fighting, then certainly apply whatever you have learned from Wing Chun in any way you can on the ground! But if you are really concerned about ground-fighting, don't rely on this. Wing Chun was not designed to be used on the ground. It will never measure up to a method that WAS purposefully designed for ground-fighting like BJJ, Harimau, Buah, etc. I say do the best with what you have, but don't be afraid to expand your training into other ranges. One wouldn't try to hunt a grizzly bear with a 9mm handgun or sail around the world in a row boat. The right tool at the right time is the best approach. You can get by with a tool that has been adapted, but it may not get optimal results. At least that's my 2 cents.

 

[geezer]

See I still don't get this. Why does it make a difference if it is in line with WC principles or not?

Considering the double leg is probably not in line with wc .

Drop: Consider what Yak said above. Wing Chun is a system where all the parts reinforce each other like clockwork. Think of a well designed car, for example. If you have a great sports car but it can't go off-road, you don't just bolt on parts from your Jeep to solve the problem. Each is designed for a different purpose. Same for WC and BJJ. So, the best solution is to buy both a sports car and a solid 4X4. ...or train WC and a grappling art. Use each as you need to. Just don't mix them together!

 

[geezer]

If you have never trained for ground-fighting, then certainly apply whatever you have learned from Wing Chun in any way you can on the ground! But if you are really concerned about ground-fighting, don't rely on this. Wing Chun was not designed to be used on the ground. It will never measure up to a method that WAS purposefully designed for ground-fighting...

Agreed. That's why a WC stylist who hasn't trained in a ground fighting system should know his limitations and vulnerabilities, and consider "anti-grappling" as strictly an emergency method designed to a. prevent a grappler from easily closing and taking you to the ground, and b. help you to quickly escape and recover to your WC range. Applied in this way, "anti-grappling" can help you against an in-expert grappler.

Similarly, grapplers train what amounts to "anti-striking" to close on a boxer or other striker. Such techniques won't equal an expert striker's skills at the striking range, but they serve their purpose.

KPM: The problem with "anti-anything" is that it's sometimes used to cover up the limitations that any system has. Better to be honest with yourself about what you can and cannot do. You know, Sun Tzu's "Know your enemy and know yourself..." I think we agree that the ideal would be to be skilled at both arts. I know I would like that. I'd also like to be taller, younger, smarter and incredibly ripped. -LOL

 

[drop bear]

Drop: Consider what Yak said above. Wing Chun is a system where all the parts reinforce each other like clockwork. Think of a well designed car, for example. If you have a great sports car but it can't go off-road, you don't just bolt on parts from your Jeep to solve the problem. Each is designed for a different purpose. Same for WC and BJJ. So, the best solution is to buy both a sports car and a solid 4X4. ...or train WC and a grappling art. Use each as you need to. Just don't mix them together!

See let's look at that analogy. It feels like you have a sports car. Then you need to go off road and deciding the best vehicle has to be in line with the principles of a sports car. Rather than just using the tool for the job.

Training both would make more sense. By the way.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Could just by a Porsche Cayenne

 

[geezer]

See let's look at that analogy. It feels like you have a sports car. Then you need to go off road and deciding the best vehicle has to be in line with the principles of a sports car. Rather than just using the tool for the job.

Training both would make more sense. By the way.

Right, Drop. Cross-training would be the way to go. What I'm trying to explain is why you don't want to blend two arts with contradictory methodologies at the same range. For example, train both, but keep to WC at the striking range, and use grappling in the clinch or on the ground.

You see, the problem comes when people try to combine arts with contrary stances, methods of power generation, and so forth. If you train two contradictory ways to deal with the identical situation, you have to decide which approach to take. In other words, you can't just react instinctively. This isn't just a WC problem. It's something everybody who trains multiple arts has to resolve.

 

[Vajramusti]

Right, Drop. Cross-training would be the way to go. What I'm trying to explain is why you don't want to blend two arts with contradictory methodologies at the same range. For example, train both, but keep to WC at the striking range, and use grappling in the clinch or on the ground.

You see, the problem comes when people try to combine arts with contrary stances, methods of power generation, and so forth. If you train two contradictory ways to deal with the identical situation, you have to decide which approach to take. In other words, you can't just react instinctively. This isn't just a WC problem. It's something everybody who trains multiple arts has to resolve.

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Interesting but frequwbr topic.

Mine is probably a minority opinion. I agree that it is best not to go to the ground voluntarily. However;
I dont need to learn bjj or something else. I work on making sure that my stance and hands are solid but springy
and the footwork decisive. I dont sew on a Frankenstein creation. I try to cut through someone's attempt to dive for me.
I work on making sure that no one holds me long enough to throw me. I move or moving decisively- not just standing still.
On the ground I still use wing chun body coordination.

Seems to work for me, my best students and my kung fu bros. I am not being arrogant.Perhaps different...but I think traditional.
If cross training is needed by someone- so be it. The sprawl can help in some situations- but a strong grappler can overturn
you while you are sprawling.

Of course training and trying things out is important.

 

[yak sao]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Interesting but frequwbr topic.

Mine is probably a minority opinion. I agree that it is best not to go to the ground voluntarily. However;
I dont need to learn bjj or something else. I work on making sure that my stance and hands are solid but springy
and the footwork decisive. I dont sew on a Frankenstein creation. I try to cut through someone's attempt to dive for me.
I work on making sure that no one holds me long enough to throw me. I move or moving decisively- not just standing still.
On the ground I still use wing chun body coordination.

Seems to work for me, my best students and my kung fu bros. I am not being arrogant.Perhaps different...but I think traditional.
If cross training is needed by someone- so be it. The sprawl can help in some situations- but a strong grappler can overturn
you while you are sprawling.

Of course training and trying things out is important.

I agree with this, for pure pragmatism if nothing else.

I don't have time to cross train. Because of work, family, household responsibilities etc, I have a limited amount of time. Add to that the fact that I'm not exactly a spring chicken anymore and don't need to be rolling around on the floor having my joints twisted and bent into positions they were never intended for.

I still believe that for personal protection you are better off going into a self defense situation knowing that what you are going to do will have as few variables as possible. My time is better spent developing my stance, footwork, striking, kicking and arm structures so that they will work when put to the test.

Is a few hours a week spent wrestling and grappling going to help me against someone who is truly an expert grappler? I would say no, so why spend time learning how to fight their fight. WCs strength lies in its ability to dissolve/redirect force and attack very quickly and forcefully from a very short range. Better I get good at a select skill set rather than bouncing all over the place chasing butterflies.

 

[drop bear]

-training would be the way to go. What I'm trying to explain is why you don't want to blend two arts with contradictory methodologies at the same range. For example, train both, but keep to WC at the striking range, and use grappling in the clinch or on the ground.

You see, the problem comes when people try to combine arts with contrary stances, methods of power generation, and so forth. If you train two contradictory ways to deal with the identical situation, you have to decide which approach to take. In other words, you can't just react instinctively. This isn't just a WC problem. It's something everybody who trains multiple arts has to resolve.

Yeah that is kind of why I jumped in because that integration is pretty much what we do.

So then the sprawl should not matter whether it is WC or not. It is taken from a different system for a different set of circumstances and would not be done with WC principles. Or if it does then only coincidentally.

Or you defend with WC principles and try to strike out which to be honest is low percentage against that sort of attack.

Now I could see why you would choose a defence that puts you back in that striking range over one that doesn't. But the I suppose you are becoming hybrid.

Which is getting complicated. So instead of doing a bjj butflop and fighting off you back you would do a mma cross face stay standing disengage and strike.

So instead of trying to keep a set of principles and create a cringe worthy defence.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6c8SAHJ7C6U

Or just abandon WC all together and bjj your way out. Hitting a jump guard or guillotine.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PwNWhwB8ftg

You find a set of principles that work that can then put you back in the zone to fight from.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QQTHZ2prVq4

By the way on that last vid he is not trapping the hand the hand is blocking the takedown.

 

[KPM]

KPM: The problem with "anti-anything" is that it's sometimes used to cover up the limitations that any system has. Better to be honest with yourself about what you can and cannot do. You know, Sun Tzu's "Know your enemy and know yourself..." I think we agree that the ideal would be to be skilled at both arts. I know I would like that. I'd also like to be taller, younger, smarter and incredibly ripped. -LOL

Absolutely! And we'd all like to have a million dollars in the bank! As far as training...there are only so many hours in the day. For those of us that work for a living that kind of limits what we can get good at.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Is a few hours a week spent wrestling and grappling going to help me against someone who is truly an expert grappler? I would say no, so why spend time learning how to fight their fight. WCs strength lies in its ability to dissolve/redirect force and attack very quickly and forcefully from a very short range. Better I get good at a select skill set rather than bouncing all over the place chasing butterflies.

The good news is that if you ever end up going to the ground in a street situation you probably won't be facing an expert grappler. More likely either you slipped or a big guy tackled you from the side when you weren't expecting it or something like that. It doesn't take long to learn the fundamentals of how to protect yourself on the ground and get back to your feet safely. I could teach you the basics in a few weeks and have you pretty good at it within 6 months. Against most opponents that's all the ground-fighting skill you would ever need.

 

[geezer]

...So instead of doing a bjj butflop and fighting off you back you would do a mma cross face stay standing disengage and strike.

So instead of trying to keep a set of principles and create a cringe worthy defence.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6c8SAHJ7C6U

Cringeworthy indeed! First, the idea that you can reliably just punch your way out of a decent shoot when you factor in momentum and real intent to suck up your legs, drive through and dump your head hard on the pavement (cringe). Second, those red silk pajamas (cringe). And last, check out those blond streaks in his hair at around 0:42 (cringe and shudder!).

Ironically, I met and worked with this guy (Michael Casey) at a Rene Latosa Escrima seminar many years ago. In fact he is fit, tough and a gifted martial artist who could easily kick my butt. And he was just wearing normal sweats that day (thank god). I guess it just goes to show that even good guys post some dubious stuff on youtube.

You find a set of principles that work that can then put you back in the zone to fight from.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QQTHZ2prVq4
By the way on that last vid he is not trapping the hand the hand is blocking the takedown.

Ok, I'm not a big Obasi fan, but this is a lot closer to a practical solution. Really, if you are not a great grappler, your best bet is something really simple like a sprawl and cross-face, rotate around behind, then go back to WC mode and punch the heck out of him.

Incidentally, I don't see that as violating my WC principles. But then I may have a broader perspective on that than some. Good videoclips, Drop!

 

[yak sao]

The good news is that if you ever end up going to the ground in a street situation you probably won't be facing an expert grappler. More likely either you slipped or a big guy tackled you from the side when you weren't expecting it or something like that. .

True. We don't have to worry about the Gracies of the world...they're generally not going around starting trouble in bars.

It doesn't take long to learn the fundamentals of how to protect yourself on the ground and get back to your feet safely. I could teach you the basics in a few weeks and have you pretty good at it within 6 months. Against most opponents that's all the ground-fighting skill you would ever need.

I do try to work my WT against skilled grapplers when I can. I have a couple of buddies who are BJJ guys, one who is a catch wrestler and one an old wrestler from high school...they keep you honest.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I do try to work my WT against skilled grapplers when I can. I have a couple of buddies who are BJJ guys, one who is a catch wrestler and one an old wrestler from high school...they keep you honest.

That is the key. Working with people that are skilled at grappling. That way you know what your practicing will work through trial and error. Way to often I see someone theorize how to defeat a takedown and quite frankly they have no clue. There is a lot more to a double leg takedown than just shooting in. There is of course controlling the distance, catching the opponent when their balance is on their heel, etc. Lots of different ways to set it up. You need to work with skilled grapplers and learn from them so that you can develop your skill sets against grappling.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That is the key. Working with people that are skilled at grappling. That way you know what your practicing will work through trial and error. Way to often I see someone theorize how to defeat a takedown and quite frankly they have no clue. There is a lot more to a double leg takedown than just shooting in. There is of course controlling the distance, catching the opponent when their balance is on their heel, etc. Lots of different ways to set it up. You need to work with skilled grapplers and learn from them so that you can develop your skill sets against grappling.

Agree 100% there. This discussion should not be just "WC vs. grappling". It should be a general discussion such as "striking vs. grappling" instead.

When you deal with a grappler, it's more than just the "single leg" and "double legs" that you should worry about. You should worry about:

- arm wrapping,
- under hook,
- over hook,
- head lock,
- bear hug,
- waist surrounding,
- ...

If you don't train in those areas, you will never be able to deal with any good grappler effectively.

For example, If you want to deal with "arm wrapping", you need to train

- How to prevent it from happening?
- After it happened, how to take advantage on it?
- ...

 

[Vajramusti]

Cringeworthy indeed! First, the idea that you can reliably just punch your way out of a decent shoot when you factor in momentum and real intent to suck up your legs, drive through and dump your head hard on the pavement (cringe). Second, those red silk pajamas (cringe). And last, check out those blond streaks in his hair at around 0:42 (cringe and shudder!).

Ironically, I met and worked with this guy (Michael Casey) at a Rene Latosa Escrima seminar many years ago. In fact he is fit, tough and a gifted martial artist who could easily kick my butt. And he was just wearing normal sweats that day (thank god). I guess it just goes to show that even good guys post some dubious stuff on youtube.





Ok, I'm not a big Obasi fan, but this is a lot closer to a practical solution. Really, if you are not a great grappler, your best bet is something really simple like a sprawl and cross-face, rotate around behind, then go back to WC mode and punch the heck out of him.

Incidentally, I don't see that as violating my WC principles. But then I may have a broader perspective on that than some. Good videoclips, Drop!

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not impressed with the videos

 

[geezer]

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not impressed with the videos

I'm just a visual learner Joy. I always appreciate it when people include clips to illustrate what they are talking about.

 

[Vajramusti]

I'm just a visual learner Joy. I always appreciate it when people include clips to illustrate what they are talking about.

------------------------------------------------------------------
No problem. I was just commenting on the videos,
Visual and written text is good for me.
Audios -can be a problem.

The take down attempts in the videos did not seem serious enough.
Also the wc guy was stationary. I would suggest attacking( not a fan of chain punching)
as the guy begins to move or even earlier- timing be an important key.

PS On 'chain punching'- 1-3 explosive punches are better. But against a takedown
balanced palms properly aimed can do the job- if done right could break
the attckers neck if it is really a life threatening serious threat .

 

[drop bear]

Cringeworthy indeed! First, the idea that you can reliably just punch your way out of a decent shoot when you factor in momentum and real intent to suck up your legs, drive through and dump your head hard on the pavement (cringe). Second, those red silk pajamas (cringe). And last, check out those blond streaks in his hair at around 0:42 (cringe and shudder!).

Ironically, I met and worked with this guy (Michael Casey) at a Rene Latosa Escrima seminar many years ago. In fact he is fit, tough and a gifted martial artist who could easily kick my butt. And he was just wearing normal sweats that day (thank god). I guess it just goes to show that even good guys post some dubious stuff on youtube.





Ok, I'm not a big Obasi fan, but this is a lot closer to a practical solution. Really, if you are not a great grappler, your best bet is something really simple like a sprawl and cross-face, rotate around behind, then go back to WC mode and punch the heck out of him.

Incidentally, I don't see that as violating my WC principles. But then I may have a broader perspective on that than some. Good videoclips, Drop!

I can never keep up with WC principles so I just give up and don't bother. Almost in general grappling principles arms down,low base,head up.don't mesh with striking ones.

The thing with sprawl and cross face is the best fighters use it as well as the beginners and where a lot of tactics get nulled out by a skilled counter that is one that gets used pretty regularly. For us stating standing there is paramount.

 

[Vajramusti]

------------------------------------------------------------------
No problem. I was just commenting on the videos,
Visual and written text is good for me.
Audios -can be a problem.

The take down attempts in the videos did not seem serious enough.
Also the wc guy was stationary. I would suggest attacking( not a fan of chain punching)
as the guy begins to move or even earlier- timing be an important key.

PS On 'chain punching'- 1-3 explosive punches are better. But against a takedown
balanced palms properly aimed can do the job- if done right could break
the attckers neck if it is really a life threatening serious threat .

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

p.s.(specially geezer) If interested- you can go to the articles section of myweb site at< www.tempewingchun.com>
and click on articles . See the JAMA article on chum kiu-mobility and stability.
Photos 2a and 2b- gives a sample of my approach to a grappling attack.My partner and student
Josh Santobianco is an All American
Greco roman grappler in addition to being an Army Ranger etc.