Well I've been back into training for several months now after a lay-off of many years, and I've been reflecting a lot on training methods. In the various branches of WT with which I have some experience, Chi-sau is taught in two steps. Each set of movements and applications is systematically introduced in a sort of Chi-Sau form, usually referred to as "Section 1, 2, 3, etc." Then, after the movements become well trained, they are integrated into your body of free-form Chi-sau movements which can be applied randomly when an opening is presented. This free-form Chi-sau can be practiced cooperatively or really cranked up to where it becomes Chi-Sau sparring. How do you approach Chi-sau training in your system?
How do you train Chi-Sau in your WC
- Thread starter geezer
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profesormental
Brown Belt
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LOL!!!
That was funny!!
Actually, I've heard that the reason for romanizing the characters for Wing Chun into "Ving Tsun" was exactly to avoid being called WC kung fu (bathroom kung fu)...
I guess that caused a lot of fights back in the day in Hong Kong.
I'll answer when I get back... lot's of things going on!!
Juan M. Mercado
That was funny!!
Actually, I've heard that the reason for romanizing the characters for Wing Chun into "Ving Tsun" was exactly to avoid being called WC kung fu (bathroom kung fu)...
I guess that caused a lot of fights back in the day in Hong Kong.
I'll answer when I get back... lot's of things going on!!
Juan M. Mercado
graychuan
Blue Belt
In the Woo Fai Ching System we start off with the stationary stance and basic don-chi-sao (single sticky) so that we can ingrain 'textbook' structure in the tan/bong and the low fook/high fook. Once this is learned then we go on to using both hands and just working on structure and the rolling alone (this is what we refer to as the look-sao cycle). Next, we go on to develope techniques off of the look-sao cycle (which at this point we call it the phoon-sao because we are actually working techniques), and this elevates to straight freestyle chi-sao. Then moving stances are applied and we go back to the basics to learn how to apply the bracing steps and such to support our stance as we are sticking.
I would like to reiterate that this is the definition of said terms and drills in the Woo system. It is likely that look-sao and phoon-sao can be different and/or similar in other Wing Chun Systems.
I would like to reiterate that this is the definition of said terms and drills in the Woo system. It is likely that look-sao and phoon-sao can be different and/or similar in other Wing Chun Systems.
It sure doesn't look like 99% of the videos on youtube when we do it.
For one, in the basic rolling structure is much less repetitive...we try and make the hands do different things all the time...so it doesn't really look like the bong-tan/fook "steering wheel"-thing you see so much of..the only way I can think to describe it is kind of like thumb-wrestling with the arms. (when I first started doing chi sao it was more like the repetitive steering wheel thing, but that can only get you so far).
Personally, I try to use and experiment with as much footwork as possible...just standing there doesn't make much sense to me.
As far as intensity goes, it really depends on what we're working on. Sometimes I want to work a specific aspect, so maybe aggressiveness will take a backseat so I can focus on relaxation, or a particular technique, or whatever. Other times we'll crank it up and try to whollop each other.
I know some guys who only do chi sao at "knock-your-teeth-out"-level...they're not much fun to play with, and their wing chun doesn't look very pretty, but it works!
For one, in the basic rolling structure is much less repetitive...we try and make the hands do different things all the time...so it doesn't really look like the bong-tan/fook "steering wheel"-thing you see so much of..the only way I can think to describe it is kind of like thumb-wrestling with the arms. (when I first started doing chi sao it was more like the repetitive steering wheel thing, but that can only get you so far).
Personally, I try to use and experiment with as much footwork as possible...just standing there doesn't make much sense to me.
As far as intensity goes, it really depends on what we're working on. Sometimes I want to work a specific aspect, so maybe aggressiveness will take a backseat so I can focus on relaxation, or a particular technique, or whatever. Other times we'll crank it up and try to whollop each other.
I know some guys who only do chi sao at "knock-your-teeth-out"-level...they're not much fun to play with, and their wing chun doesn't look very pretty, but it works!
CuongNhuka
Senior Master
What Line of Wing Chun do you train? It sounds like a non-Yip Man line, is it?
LOL...no it's Ip Ching. (I went to a Leung Ting school for about a year too).
It's real, honest-to-god wing chun. What I'm trying to say is that it's more like this as opposed to this. We try and constantly maintain forward pressure and make the hands do different things all the time throughout the basic poon structure, as opposed to launching a surprise attack from a more repetitive poon-sau.
Also...is it me or does it look like that Lovio guy and his student (2nd vid) are not giving each other any forward-pressure at all? To me it looks like they're just rolling their hands back & forth.
graychuan
Blue Belt
I can sort of see what you are saying. It seems to me that if there was forward energy then he would be driving forward in the techniques when he throws them instead of dropping back like he seems to be doing. He has quick hands tho. Anyone else agree/disagree?
CuongNhuka
Senior Master
It sounded (for a moment) that you are from a line were each hand rolls in it's own circle. I've always wanted to discuss this, but never met someone with which to do it.
OP
- Thread Starter
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Man, that's a tough call just from watching a video--although I admit I didn't watch the whole thing. I've only got a dial-up connection and it takes forever! But, if the forward pressure is light, it won't necessarily show up. And, it's hard to tell if the player withdraws pressure deliberately, just to sucker-in an attack. The proof is in the feeling.
One thing I've noticed even within my own WT lineage is a lot of variation in the feel of each person's Chi-Sau--especially since WT now has further split into several organizations (Leung Ting, Boztepe, Webb, etc.) Even Leung Ting's original group varies from continent to continent and branch to branch, in spite of a very strong effort to maintain uniformity. Wing Tsun/Tsun Chi-Sau is ultimately a very individualistic art. Body type and temperment as well as ability and sensitivity will affect the result, in spite of similar instruction. At least, that's the way it seems to me.
That's a pretty darn accurate post. Each class of WC has a different approach to how chi sau should be played. Some like to keep forward pressure (which I don't like cause ya get sweaty faster), some like to maintain structure and simply pass the energy back and forth (I prefer this type because its more like a video game and the stronger person doesn't dominate), and there are some that are very relaxed and almost like doing sensitivity drills.
I think the proper way is to keep the right amount of forward pressure, but not too much. You dont want to just charge through your opponent. Two practitioners of the same skill level and strength would end up looking like two bulls fighting over a female. Constantly pushing into each other.
My opinion is that an over abundance of forward pressure is bad bad bad. It commits you to moving forward and could become a problem when a need to back pedal arises. Practitioners tend to do this because they have issues with their structure.
graychuan
Blue Belt
graychuan
Blue Belt
The purpose of these specific prearranged drills is to develop a very simple but obviously overlooked facet of fighting training which is called Muscle Memory. Now its one thing to react or respond to an attack but what are you reacting with? Reflexes as you say? Ok, then what is the reflexive response? Do we just pull this out of our @$$&$ at the moment? No.
The drills in Wing Chun and Chi Sao (for those that actually study this art and are curious) are pre arranged because they work against attacks and deal with incoming force by sending it to the floor through proper interdependent structure. The problem with understanding chi-sao is that it is a platform that allows for repetitive motion to drill these responses AND with the intent of also ingraining the concepts of interdependent structure, jing lik, sensitivity, timing and such. If Chi-Sao is done with this in mind then your response to an attack (or your attack) will not deviate from a structure which supports the appropriate action, because you have already drilled it in to begin with. Chi-Sao involves the stance and structure as much as the 'complicated prearranged responses' of the hands. This type of repetitive training is useful in all drills and for preparing to fight chi-sao, yut fuk yee, da, lop cycles, don chi sao, chi gerk, wooden man and forms BUT only complete when it is harnessed in the understanding of structure.
An understanding of structure automatically implies an understanding of distance as well. We see a lot of chi-sao play where the partners are almost at arms length and/or the bridge too high. We also see a lot of segmenting of the structure mainly at the lower back and hips (leaning) when incoming force is applied. We also don't see a lot of double arm control. Too far away means no follow through. A step can always be taken but then there is that structure thing again. That's why SLTdoesn't trust you to take one step until the end of the form. If Luk-Sao is already at full extension of the arms then where is the follow-through? How can we deal with incoming force without compromising our defense drastically? How can we remain soft but powerful?
Chi-Sao is Wing Chun's way to answer these questions.
There is no skill without understanding.
The drills in Wing Chun and Chi Sao (for those that actually study this art and are curious) are pre arranged because they work against attacks and deal with incoming force by sending it to the floor through proper interdependent structure. The problem with understanding chi-sao is that it is a platform that allows for repetitive motion to drill these responses AND with the intent of also ingraining the concepts of interdependent structure, jing lik, sensitivity, timing and such. If Chi-Sao is done with this in mind then your response to an attack (or your attack) will not deviate from a structure which supports the appropriate action, because you have already drilled it in to begin with. Chi-Sao involves the stance and structure as much as the 'complicated prearranged responses' of the hands. This type of repetitive training is useful in all drills and for preparing to fight chi-sao, yut fuk yee, da, lop cycles, don chi sao, chi gerk, wooden man and forms BUT only complete when it is harnessed in the understanding of structure.
An understanding of structure automatically implies an understanding of distance as well. We see a lot of chi-sao play where the partners are almost at arms length and/or the bridge too high. We also see a lot of segmenting of the structure mainly at the lower back and hips (leaning) when incoming force is applied. We also don't see a lot of double arm control. Too far away means no follow through. A step can always be taken but then there is that structure thing again. That's why SLTdoesn't trust you to take one step until the end of the form. If Luk-Sao is already at full extension of the arms then where is the follow-through? How can we deal with incoming force without compromising our defense drastically? How can we remain soft but powerful?
Chi-Sao is Wing Chun's way to answer these questions.
There is no skill without understanding.
