How Do *YOU* Test Your Techniques?

[MJS]

In light of some recent threads on MT and KT, I thought I'd pose this question: How do YOU test your techniques, so make sure that they work? Do you go out, like in the old Kaju days, and do some good old fashion *** whoopin? Do you take for gosple, what your teachers tell you about the techniques, and assume that they'll work for you, because the same technique worked for them, and their teacher, and their teachers teacher, and their teachers teachers teacher? Do you spar/pressure test them?

LEOs, Military, Firefighters, all have various tools that they use to test their skills. Firefighters will train with specific live scenarios. They'll use old cars and simulate the real deal car crash, where they have to cut open the doors, give medical care, extract the victims, all under pressure and a set time. They'll conduct controlled burns in old houses. The LEOs/Correction Officers, will conduct training exercises, cell extractions, etc. They'll use a FATS (Fire Arms Training Simulator) machine, to put themselves, in the proper mindset, and run thru various scenes that they could very well face on the street. The Military is always doing drills.

Now, of course, chances are, someone will say, "Well, you'll never replicate a real fight!" in an effort to almost discredit the use of scenario training. And while you may never get 100%, I honestly feel that you will get close. IMHO, a good portion of it is the proper mindset. Peyton Quinn would conduct realistic drills, in which the padded attacker would do everything possible, to get the defender into the right mindset, to replicate a real fight, to put the defender under pressure, and see exactly what they're going to do, how they're going to do it, what will work, what wont work, and so forth.

So, back to the question. Let the discussion begin.

Mike

 

[jks9199]

Great question. I do incorporate occasional scenario training with my students -- but scenario training is VERY hard work to do it well. Lots of places do the scenario training that caused the bad name: they make up a situation, decide how they're going to get the students, and go at it. Usually, that means the scenario is unrealistic and weird -- and set up with the "instructors" will win. Done right -- the instructors should LOSE every time, if the students do their jobs right!

Sparring, in various forms, is another way to practice and experience different sorts of pressure. Good partner work can be, too.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Re: How Do *YOU* Test Your Techniques?

I have never sparred against a padded training partner like we frequently see in RBSD classes.As a ghetto child,we'd never seen such a thing before; our focus was always upon immediate efficient effective application.We could literally be fighting shortly after we left the dojo (at least half of us were) so we had to be result oriented in the shortest time possible.I'll take a single movement and test the hell out of it.We keep hearing about Checks for instance,and we think we have a good grasp of it.Yeah well try to isolate that one technique and then spar with it...all you can do is Check your opponent's attacks.You REALLY begin to get a grasp of Checking then.And repeat...all the way til the day the casket drops.You'll still be developing your Checks.Lol.Probably be in Heaven Checking angels...

I always isolate and spar with techniques,but I especially do so when I doubt the efficacy of a technique or I'm having madd problems with it.The humerus bone blow in Dropping The Storm immediately drew my skepticism in its consistent reliability,so I isolated it and sparred with it.So far my skepticism seems well placed; I rarely pull the blow off but experience much more success with the variant that I suggested as it came from the sparring.With Snaking Talons,I found a great deal to be skeptical of in its presentation; almost none of it will work as shown reliably in a live scenario.For instance that wakk "bracing step" was not at all likely to funtion in most scenarios as it's shown.I've even seen people who are trying to stop the push with their (stumbling) "bracing steps" while trying to Snake get yanked down to the ground,snatched off of their feet,punched,tackled,etc.So I applied my Snaking Talon techniques in the lab of isolated sparring where the intensity of the sparring starts lighter and then increases until I'm facing full on live fire techniques in whatever scenario;and that's how my variant (my students named it The Snake and Tiger Talon) was born.

I use a time tested performance principle called Sport Specific Training and Performance Oriented Training that has looong been a mainstay in sports.You learn by being shown (whatever movement or technique) in a step by step basis,then doing it all together, and then practicing it singly and fully integrated ALOT.There ya go.No magic,no mystery,lotsa sweat.Remember my questions about Dropping The Storm,and my variants of Snaking Talon,and allat other stuff? Yep.Came from this.And I immediately started sparring with Dropping The Storm.Next month I will put videos of my Dropping The Storm up.It won't look like what's written,although it has alot of that same material in it.Instead it will show the results of my mat work on that technique and right off you'll see that whatever the differences are? You can do them.Quickly.Efficiently.Realistically.Dynamically .Reliably.And then we can/should compare and contrast with other Kenpoists who've tested their methods the same way...and that way we can make EVERYTHING better.Anywho...I'd been doing it long before I heard of Matt Thornton but I like the terminology he coined (or appropriated) for this method,so I'll use it here: it's called the I-3 method.

Introduction

Isolation

Integration

First I introduce a technique.We go over the purpose of the technique and the form of its execution.I demo the technique for the class.What I find that I have done differently than any other instructor that I have had when I was growing up is that in my demos I show the exact same technique executed as attacks AND defenses to each of the "major" areas in a 360 degree circle to show that the location of your opponent is irrelevant.I also do it seated,standing,in the clinch,from the up-down,grappling,while facing weapons,and facing multiple "opponents" (usually the members of my class who've surrounded me or are facing me in what amounts to a "skirmish line").This demo I have found over the years to have a tremendous effect in bolstering confidence regarding the real world applicability of the technique. I then set about having my students execute the techniques in line,so I can focus on each one of them individually and so can the whole class.This way we're all learning at once and I can combat the "fidgets" that young kids can have while they're in line.I also am not scared to hand out calisthenics to the whole line (knuckle pushups,squat thrusts,squats,lunges,and variants of the Yoga Boat pose and the Yoga Tree which really works the core muscles too,then I make them do toe touches to warm them down,and they better be done with all of this in the space of a round which is 1-2 minutes for juniors) to keep the kids busy and encourage them to be focused from that point forward.Works miracles.Anywho...yeah,I introduce them to the technique.I personally focus on Stance,Perception,Defense,and Offense...in that order...during the Introduction phase,and I weld these concepts together with pretty much everything I do.So for instance I'll oftentimes teach my ATACX GYM fighting stances AND the Nuetral Stance (from some variant of which you'll have to defend yourself from 90% of SD scenarios when it jumps off,and then if you have time you can set into your fighting stance),show my students where to look in order to see any and all empty hand and weapons attacks being launched in frontal attack,what techniques we'll use to defend that attack,and what techniques we'll use to mop the floor with our attacker.

Isolation--Here is where we go from zero to functional.We rep the technique out in the air,basically shadowboxing with it.I usually assign 3 rounds for this,during which I insist that they get in 90 executions of the technique on each side.More work than it appears,folks,but it's highly functional and definitely rewarding.You can see their proficiency rise as they rep it out under your watchful eye.The first two rounds are nonstop,meaning there is active rest of jogging around the gym or park (I teach park classes too and whatnot) during the minute break that I usually mandate for beginners after each round.I do this on purpose.It stresses their bodies a bit and brings them mentally and physically closer to the stresses of combat under which they'll have to perform...and I tell them this as they enjoy their first break at the end of the 3rd round.Usually they'll have a decent grasp of the technique by then.I then mandate another 2 rounds of shadow sparring and then I give them a water and questions break.I tell them that we'll be moving on to the next phase which is throwing the technique at each other now.We do that,with each partner alternating between attacker and defender,for the meat of the class...I assign 12 rounds to this single pursuit.It never fails..by round 4 they've got it,and they're starting to get tired.I give them a good 5-10 minute break,during which I talk to them and they get some water and I demo the corrections I want them to make.I have their attention and their full confidence now,but most importantly? THEY KNOW THEY CAN DO IT TOO BY NOW,AND THEY CAN SEE HOW THEIR FRIENDS AND ENEMIES HAVE NO DEFENSE AGAINST WHAT THEY'RE DOING.They're my new set of believers,new members of the choir. Rounds 5-6 are clearly different than all the others.It's like there are a whole new set of people in here now as opposed to the people who walked in the door,and THERE IS.They're EMPOWERED now.They KNOW and they BELIEVE.I give them another rest,make quicker corrections.They're barely looking at me now,they make the corrections off of just my verbal input alone.They nod as I speak,and they get right back into it.

Btw,women are BEASTS when they get to this stage.The only times I've had "accidents" is when usually a new girl or woman gets so taken by how easily she can do these techniques that she overzealously exploits a defensive lapse by her partner.Almost every time she CRACKS A MAN OR BOY.I have only had 4 incidents in 14 years of teaching where a woman accidentally cracks another woman with some vigor in her techniques when we're in the newbie phase.

Anywho,I make them work the gamut.Standing up? They are speedily gaining confidence.Raw but willing in the clinch phase.Still need work but improving during the Seated range.Still working on the basics of execution and are physically getting more and more pooped during the ground phase,so I tend to reverse the order of the instruction from rounds 5-12...I START WITH THE GROUND FIRST.I give more breaks,too.I ensure that they get technical instruction during the rounds and during the breaks.This way they spend most of their time in their "worst case" scenario (ground fighting and ground grappling) while their energy level is high,thus ensuring more quality learning and reps.I then proceed to their 2nd worst case scenario--Up-down--then Seated (Up-Seated,Seated-Seated),then Clinch,then Standup.As their energy wanes,they're moved into ranges of combat that they're more familiar with,so the LEARNING CURVE never stops,and their performance is still high enough for them to be interested and motivated.Lastly and more and more consistently from rounds 5-12,I remind my students to keep the force level down to no more than 50%.We want a good deep technical session here without bruising anyone too much to come back to class tomorrow and learn further.I tell them that if they follow the level of force progressions that I map out that they'll be able to SAFELY go at full power in no more than 7 training sessions.In 14 years of teaching,I have never failed to deliver on that promise.Students love it.

Integration: That's when we take the techniques that we learned and put them back into our arsenal.I link every technique that I teach them so that they can execute them in a nonstop flow.You can flow from every range of combat to escape to back to protecting others and escaping with them without a break and with total confidence.I usually have the class face the Skirmish Line (everybody lines up single file facing a student I selected,and the student runs their technique ground to stand up against everybody in the class) and everybody gets a go,including me.I go first.This way they see yet again what they're supposed to do and how to do it.I found this to be very important,and I truly encourage all instructors here to get on the mat REGULARLY.It has the most salutory affect upon our students.This is usually Round 8.Sometimes Round 9.If it's Round 9,I extend the class to 14 rounds instead of 12 because this group caught on a little slower than usually.

I have them wrap it up at the end of round 12,clap it up,congratualte them,line them up,and ask the students to give me their input on the class,because you're teaching me now and I oftentimes realign aspects of the class based upon the feedback I get from my students.What did they like and what they didn't.Why.What questions do you have.What problems do you have when trying to learn this here technique or do that there move.I learn the most from them at this point of the class and I tell them that.Within 3 days,they're all chiming in and bringing up questions for the whole class to answer and we're all cheering each other on.It's a communal lab and we love it.

so yeah there you have THE ATACX GYM METHOD.
​

 

[LawDog]

In the street, in a bar type scene, (past tense). Getting a little to old for that now.

 

[Stonecold]

Sad to say but the only real way to test, is to do it for real, sparring is great, but dosn't have the life & death threat.
From the life I have lead, & place's I have found myself in, I have had to go for real many many times, things dont work out the same as in class.
Most people willing to do you harm, have done this before, they have fought & dealt with real threats, they have had true tested violent training just not class time.
There is a lot more involved then kick, punch, take down, choke.
You have to have the mind set, be willing to badly hurt someone else as well as get hurt your self.
You have to be able to pull the trigger so to speak, have the will to fight to the end, no matter what the out come.
lets just hope you never have to.

 

[K831]

Sad to say but the only real way to test, is to do it for real, sparring is great, but dosn't have the life & death threat.
From the life I have lead, & place's I have found myself in, I have had to go for real many many times, things dont work out the same as in class.
Most people willing to do you harm, have done this before, they have fought & dealt with real threats, they have had true tested violent training just not class time.
There is a lot more involved then kick, punch, take down, choke.
You have to have the mind set, be willing to badly hurt someone else as well as get hurt your self.
You have to be able to pull the trigger so to speak, have the will to fight to the end, no matter what the out come.
lets just hope you never have to.

^^^ This.

It's unfortunately true that no amount of training, sparring, competing, simulators etc will ever fully prepare one for the real thing, and as such, don't fully count as "pressure testing". Now, that isn't to diminish all the training methods mentioned, as they are the next best thing.

Growing up, from the age of a little kid through high school I just simply didn't bow out, so I got into a lot of fights. Through late high school and college I realized that there were plenty of bully's genuinely deserving of a whooping, so I started being pretty bold about sticking up for others, and as such, fights happened.

As I got older, people started carrying weapons and ganging up more, so it became stupid risky to tell a loud mouth to leave someone alone unless absolutely necessary. Things got real dodgy a few times, and it tempered me a little.

When I got married, it really wasn't worth the risk anymore, and outside of a few times, my wife has only seen me act with a lot of restraint (one time she saw me get in a fight on plane flying to see my folks, that was interesting).

I went through a phase where I took security/bouncer jobs at night. Not for the money, simply to get back to the hands on experience as much as possible. That provided a few opportunities to use some arrest and control stuff, with the occasional strike for pain compliance, but like most cops and security, you don't typically get into "that type" of fight in those situations. Tactics are already in place, your partner is right there, as is more backup and additional force etc.

I have and do train for a competition every so often, weather it be catch wrestling, boxing or some small regional MMA event. It's fun, but not even close to a real fight, or even security work in most cases. Fitness demands are higher, but nowhere near the risk factors and all that come with it, as Stonecold mentioned.

These days, I just try to train with as much aliveness as possible. That doesn't have to be sparring, but it means unscripted, random and spontaneous drills. I also like a lot of contact... If you aren't getting the wind knocked out of you or your legs chopped up each class, the intensity isn't there.

As to your question about taking my instructors word for it. Right now, yes. My Kenpo instructor and my FMA instructor have been through it, and so when they weigh in on certain techniques or tactics, I know they do it from experience. I don't tend to train with people who can't do that though. My Kenpo instructors understanding is so sound, he will constantly teach something to the class as a whole, and then go around grabbing individuals and saying "with your build, with your height, with your... I wouldn't do it the way I just taught, I would consider making these changes." That type of thing brings a lot of confidence, especially when he says what I was already thinking in regards to my physical and psychological attributes. When an instructor doesn't just teach an art as he was taught it, it helps know you can trust them.

Just my .02

 

[Hudson69]

At my old agency we would look at situations that LEO's had gotten into (won, survived or didn't make it) and pick it apart. Then we would generate scenario based training around it.

A lot of it was DT, some was gun work, some of it was mixed but mostly it was mental. During the training we would go up to about 75% (with light pads, some guys in redman suits and the use of simunitions with live range work). There were ususally areas that if you didn't figure out or get past then that was the extent of your scenario.

After action/debriefs were done soom after and as a whole we would try and learn from all of it.

Now I try and do the same with a smaller group of people and a tighter budget.

 

[MJS]

Nice replies everyone. I agree, to really test something, that'd probably require us to actually go out, get into a fight and see what happens. Of course, while that may've worked years ago, todays society frowns upon that. LOL.

Scenario training....JKS made a good point. IMO, it can be done, but as he said, it needs to be done right, otherwise the desired results wont happen.

K831 said this:

"These days, I just try to train with as much aliveness as possible. That doesn't have to be sparring, but it means unscripted, random and spontaneous drills. I also like a lot of contact... If you aren't getting the wind knocked out of you or your legs chopped up each class, the intensity isn't there."

100% agree!! IMO I do feel that anything that is above a relaxed state, could be deemed pressure testing. Trying to do something, accomplish a goal, and the other person isn't letting you do it with ease. Likewise, I too, like the spontaneous reaction drills. Of course, this also requires the 'attacker' to really make an honest effort to hit you, kick you, choke you, whatever. Additinally, I also like the contact. IMO, its better to get used to that hard contact in the dojo, where you can learn from your mistakes, than get clocked on the street, for the first time, and end up having that be your demise.

Atacx made some great points, esp. with the "I Method" which the SBG uses. IMO, this should be something thats used by everyone. Too many times, I've seen only 1, maybe 2 of the 3 methods done in a class. The tech is introduced, and its drilled a few times....and then thats it! Somehow after a dozen or so times, the student 'has it' and they're ready to move on. Sorry, it just doesnt work that way.

 

[K831]

Too many times, I've seen only 1, maybe 2 of the 3 methods done in a class. The tech is introduced, and its drilled a few times....and then thats it! Somehow after a dozen or so times, the student 'has it' and they're ready to move on. Sorry, it just doesnt work that way.

It works that way if you just need to get students on to the next belt!

Atacx is right.... all methods need to be employed.

 

[ATACX GYM]

At my old agency we would look at situations that LEO's had gotten into (won, survived or didn't make it) and pick it apart. Then we would generate scenario based training around it.

A lot of it was DT, some was gun work, some of it was mixed but mostly it was mental. During the training we would go up to about 75% (with light pads, some guys in redman suits and the use of simunitions with live range work). There were ususally areas that if you didn't figure out or get past then that was the extent of your scenario.

After action/debriefs were done soom after and as a whole we would try and learn from all of it.

Now I try and do the same with a smaller group of people and a tighter budget.

I've done this but mostly with my HRSP class (High Risk Security Personnel,including LEOs).