How can one obtain formlessness??

[K-man]

Formlessness.... do it naturally....it is part of you and from you and no longer something external to you...

Exactly ...
:asian:

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If formless means "no-mind", it's not that easy to be able to achieve "formless" level. You have to be good on everything. You also have to be good on both sides.

For example, if your right hook punch has 80% knock down power while your left hook punch only has 40% knock down punch, when a left hook punch opportunity has presented to you, you may not be able to take full advantage on it. You may want to lead your opponent and try to force him to give you a right hook punch opportunity. When you are doing that, you are no longer "formless".

A groin kick followed by a face punch is not "formless". You try to lead your opponent into an area that you are most familiar with.

When you date your girl, you

- let her to lead you to wherever that she wants to go, that's formless.
- lead her to Taco Bell and Dollar store, that's not "formless".

To me, formless means that you have no plan and forced by your environment. That's not good.

 

[K-man]

If formless means "no-mind", it's not that easy to be able to achieve "formless" level. You have to be good on everything. You also have to be good on both sides.

For example, if your right hook punch has 80% knock down power while your left hook punch only has 40% knock down punch, when a left hook punch opportunity has presented to you, you may not be able to take full advantage on it. You may want to lead your opponent and try to force him to give you a right hook punch opportunity. When you are doing that, you are no longer "formless".

A groin kick followed by a face punch is not "formless". You try to lead your opponent into an area that you are most familiar with.

When you date your girl, you

- let her to lead you to wherever that she wants to go, that's formless.
- lead her to Taco Bell and Dollar store, that's not "formless".

To me, formless means that you have no plan and forced by your environment. That's not good.

We were actually discussing this at training this morning. Obviously 'formless' does not apply until you are not only 'good' at everything but actually better than 'very good'. I am talking about the top level of practice.

'Formless' does not mean 'brainless'. You're not entering the conflict with no idea. You are entering with the intent to overcome your opponent. How you will do that is almost irrelevant. As you enter what you do depends on what your opponent does but in my practice would be highly unlikely to include a punch. In aikido it is referred to as 'entering with irimi, hitting with kokyu'.

So you are right in that it would not be entering with a kick and a punch. A punch to me is counter intuitive when discussing formless.

Our discussion this morning actually went deeper than martial art where we were discussing the same concept of 'formless' as it applies to Sumi-e.

Interesting discussion.
:asian:

 

[Dinkydoo]

Formlessness.... do it naturally....it is part of you and from you and no longer something external to you...

Correct me if i'm wrong: In Nothern Mantis we try to "empty ourselves" immediately prior to starting freestyle chi sau exercises. I think it is a similar concept - we're not thinking, we're doing.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If your opponent is a

- striker, you want him to play your grappling game.
- grappler, you want him to play your striking game.

Is that against the "formless"?

When you try to collect that information, you are already violate the "formless". When you decide to attack your opponent with "single leg" instead of a "jab, cross combo" on his face, you are also violate the "formless".

 

[K-man]

If your opponent is a

- striker, you want him to play your grappling game.
- grappler, you want him to play your striking game.

Is that against the "formless"?

When you try to collect that information, you are already violate the "formless". When you decide to attack your opponent with "single leg" instead of a "jab, cross combo" on his face, you are also violate the "formless".

You are quite right of course. But with 'formless' it doesn't matter what you do. You just react appropriately.
:asian:

 

[simplicity]

Are we talking about other arts? or Are we talking about Jeet Kune Do?

 

[yak sao]

In Wing Tsun, you start out learning the "proper" way to respond to a given attack. Then through hours and hours of chi sau, lat sau and forms training, you respond to the forces placed upon your structure without thinking.
Your body learns to naturally seek the path of proper balance and structure without having to physically place it there or to have your mind micro manage what your body needs to do.

 

[Xue Sheng]

If formless means "no-mind", it's not that easy to be able to achieve "formless" level. You have to be good on everything. You also have to be good on both sides.

For example, if your right hook punch has 80% knock down power while your left hook punch only has 40% knock down punch, when a left hook punch opportunity has presented to you, you may not be able to take full advantage on it. You may want to lead your opponent and try to force him to give you a right hook punch opportunity. When you are doing that, you are no longer "formless".

A groin kick followed by a face punch is not "formless". You try to lead your opponent into an area that you are most familiar with.

When you date your girl, you

- let her to lead you to wherever that she wants to go, that's formless.
- lead her to Taco Bell and Dollar store, that's not "formless".

To me, formless means that you have no plan and forced by your environment. That's not good.

This is just my opinion, but I do not believe formlessness to be the same as mushin

Formlessness....be like water
Mushin.... become free from thoughts of anger, fear, or ego during combat or everyday life.

 

[grumpywolfman]

"If you always put a limit on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them." ~ Bruce Lee

 

[Dinkydoo]

"If you always put a limit on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them." ~ Bruce Lee

One of my favourite Bruce Lee quotes.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Are we talking about other arts? or Are we talking about Jeet Kune Do?

When you ask this question, you already have "style boundary" in mind. I don't think that was what Bruce Lee wanted.

 

[K-man]

This is just my opinion, but I do not believe formlessness to be the same as mushin

Formlessness....be like water
Mushin.... become free from thoughts of anger, fear, or ego during combat or everyday life.

Mushin and 'formless' are totally different concepts. Formless almost requires a state of mushin. These concepts apply across all styles.
:asian:

 

[simplicity]

When you ask this question, you already have "style boundary" in mind. I don't think that was what Bruce Lee wanted.

Since you bring up Bruce Lee and what he wanted, here you go.... This was given to one of my teachers: Jerry Poteet:

X is Jeet Kune Do
Y is the style you will represent

To represent and teach Y one
should drill its members according
to the preaching of Y.

This is the same with anyone
who is qualified and has been
approved To represent X.

To justify by interfusing X and Y
is basically the denying of
Y~~~~~~~~~ but still calling it Y.

A man, as you put it, is one
who is noble to stick to the
road he has chosen.

A garden of rose will yield
Rose. And a garden of violets
will yield violets.

Best Wishes


1 in 10,000 will get this as to what he really was talking about

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Formlessness....be like water

Here is my concern. When there is a gap, the water will go into it. The water has no choice but we human being do have that choice. In combat, when there is an opening, we can decide whether we want to move in or not. If the opening looks like a trap, even the opening is there, we may just ignore it. This is why to be like water may not always be the smartest thing to do.

To me, combat is a chess game. It requires "plan".

X is ..., Y is ...

I prefer to look at this from a different angle.

This is what I want. Where can I get it?

 

[Dinkydoo]

Formlessness....be like water

Here is my concern. When there is a gap, the water will go into it. The water has no choice but we human being do have that choice. In combat, when there is an opening, we can decide whether we want to move in or not. If the opening looks like a trap, even the opening is there, we may just ignore it. This is why to be like water may not always be the smartest thing to do.

To me, combat is a chess game. It requires "plan".

X is ..., Y is ...

I prefer to look at this from a different angle.

This is what I want. Where can I get it?

I think you're taking the "be like water" quote too literally. It's about adapting to any given situation (I think) rather than forcing yourself to work only within the confides of another structure.

 

[simplicity]

"I don't c"I don't care who you trained with or how long, even what art you claim... Show me what you can do"... JM

"Jeet Kune Do is simply simple in the moment of
opportunity of what is, a problem solving art" JFM

are who you trained with or how long, even what art you claim... Show me what you can do"... JM

"Jeet Kune Do is simply simple in the moment of
opportunity of what is, a problem solving art" JFM

 

[simplicity]

If anyone is interested... If you come to or are already in Southeast Michigan, you are welcome to taste my cup of java...


As I subcribe to this: "I don't care who you trained with or how long, even what art you claim... Show me what you can do"... JM
"
I also believe Jeet Kune Do to be this : "Jeet Kune Do is simply simple in the moment of
opportunity of what is, a problem solving art" JFM