How appliable is aikido for self-defense?

[JP3]

In martial arts it is almost the moment you stop loosing you stop progressing.
I think the higher up in akido you go the less anyone is willing to make you loose.

They dont understand that it is a gift to be toweled up by someone better.

Completely agree with most of what you've said. But... I think you're making generalizations, eh?

Some schools regularly quality check themselves, trying to determine if (granted it's a controlled environment so the adrenaline isn't flowing in the "attacker" but we aren't just playing, either) there are places where a a bad guy coming at you full tilt boogie can exploit (or course there, there always are) and we train to work through the breakdown of those things.

Primarily, for the aikido folks, it seems that the hardest thing for them/us to deal with is the basic bum rush... just the rush to close and overpower and bear to the ground and do what is termed ground and pound. If the aikido guy is standing and can move, he/she is good to go. Close that off, stop the movement, or take to the ground and you lose aikido.

But the thing is, take the guy to the ground (or try to) you open up judo. Or BJJ if that's your bag. Every art needs cross training, IMO. There is no magic sword.

 

[Red Sun]

Completely agree with most of what you've said. But... I think you're making generalizations, eh?

Some schools regularly quality check themselves, trying to determine if (granted it's a controlled environment so the adrenaline isn't flowing in the "attacker" but we aren't just playing, either) there are places where a a bad guy coming at you full tilt boogie can exploit (or course there, there always are) and we train to work through the breakdown of those things.

Primarily, for the aikido folks, it seems that the hardest thing for them/us to deal with is the basic bum rush... just the rush to close and overpower and bear to the ground and do what is termed ground and pound. If the aikido guy is standing and can move, he/she is good to go. Close that off, stop the movement, or take to the ground and you lose aikido.

But the thing is, take the guy to the ground (or try to) you open up judo. Or BJJ if that's your bag. Every art needs cross training, IMO. There is no magic sword.

To be fair, a fully determined bumrush where someone is willing to get hit a few times is hard for anyone to defend against. I agree its more of a problem if you don't have ground skills.

Arent there videos of US marines rushing at a partner who's wearing boxing gloves, using little or no technique to wade through the punches and grab them?

 

[Hanzou]

Completely agree with most of what you've said. But... I think you're making generalizations, eh?

Some schools regularly quality check themselves, trying to determine if (granted it's a controlled environment so the adrenaline isn't flowing in the "attacker" but we aren't just playing, either) there are places where a a bad guy coming at you full tilt boogie can exploit (or course there, there always are) and we train to work through the breakdown of those things.

Primarily, for the aikido folks, it seems that the hardest thing for them/us to deal with is the basic bum rush... just the rush to close and overpower and bear to the ground and do what is termed ground and pound. If the aikido guy is standing and can move, he/she is good to go. Close that off, stop the movement, or take to the ground and you lose aikido.

But the thing is, take the guy to the ground (or try to) you open up judo. Or BJJ if that's your bag. Every art needs cross training, IMO. There is no magic sword.

I think what DB is getting at is that in a Judo or Bjj gym you have an extremely high chance of getting tapped out every time you roll. You're actually fighting someone else who is doing everything (within the rules) they can to stop you from getting them into a compromising position.

I'm not sure that exists in Aikido sparring.

 

[Jenna]

I think what DB is getting at is that in a Judo or Bjj gym you have an extremely high chance of getting tapped out every time you roll. You're actually fighting someone else who is doing everything (within the rules) they can to stop you from getting them into a compromising position.

I'm not sure that exists in Aikido sparring.

Can be true what you say yes and but it is too general to implicate ALL Aikido schools let alone individual practitioners.. some I know did not even do randori..yes! just technique after technique.. building sensitivity is crucial in Aikido and but what I would class as full-on randori is paramount if Aikido technique is to be valid and fit for defensive purpose ie. effective in neutralising threat.

So yes what you have said can be true.. some Aikido schools seem to me to still practice in a void.. That is of course up to them. However what Aikido is it then that they believe they know??? the Aikido they know maybe I think it like a delicious chocolate cake.. lovely to look at and but not so good for your health maybe..

However, not all Aikido practitioners practice this way. The ones who do unfortunately because they are delicious chocolate cake and look lovely seem to find their way on to the internet or youtube where people rightly say ah it is just chocolate cake and have no substance! I do not know who would want to look at Aikido as I would do it.. it would look as if nothing much was happening.. there is no acrobatics.. and I do not stand around to wait for a threat to put me on my back.. if I perceive a person is a threat then I am justified in being pre-emptive before he try to engage me to his level of expertise. I do not know.. maybe I am off topic.. this whole thread is off topic because the OP is in their words too fragile for it whatever that mean..

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think what DB is getting at is that in a Judo or Bjj gym you have an extremely high chance of getting tapped out every time you roll. You're actually fighting someone else who is doing everything (within the rules) they can to stop you from getting them into a compromising position.

I'm not sure that exists in Aikido sparring.

The difficult part for pure aikido (doing only "aiki" techniques) is that aiki arts are NOT designed to work against an aikidoka. Because the principle of aiki depends upon feeling and finding those gaps where aiki works so well, if you practice against someone who is just as skilled at aiki, they are closing those gaps as quickly as you find them. There are two resistance activities we use (both could be called sparring): sparring, which is strikes-only or at least nearly so; and randori, which is grappling-only or nearly so. The randori ends up looking quite a bit more like a Judo competition than anything you'd see in most exercises. This is probably especially true in my program, since I specifically teach how to defeat our techniques and specifically teach non-aiki applications of many techniques.

 

[the42cop]

I'm totally not trying to bash Aikido, but if you're looking for a way to defend yourself you're better off looking at something like Krav Maga which specializes in self defense against actual violence. Aikido isn't awful at self defense, but it is one of the soft arts and focuses on a lot more than self defense. Just my 2 cents!

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[Jenna]

I'm totally not trying to bash Aikido, but if you're looking for a way to defend yourself you're better off looking at something like Krav Maga which specializes in self defense against actual violence. Aikido isn't awful at self defense, but it is one of the soft arts and focuses on a lot more than self defense. Just my 2 cents!

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Krav Maga and Aikido are very different martial arts with very different derivations and modalities..

Why in particular do you pick Krav Maga over Aikido if you wish to defend your self?

It is confusing for me.. I have been practicing my Aikido for 22yr and am still not dead. I must be doing something incorrectly? I think I am delusional to practice a supposedly defensive art which like you say is not the best way to go for defence.. I have been wasting my time and I think it is pure luck or guardian angels that have ensured I am not dead nor at least have had my defensive delusions beaten out of me by now.. I cannot go on like this relying on luck, fate and chance.. Help me out.. Help to enlighten my darkness.. throw down your rescue rope into this cavern of Aikido ignorance into which I have apparently fallen and been stuck for 22yr! au secours! x

 

[pgsmith]

Wow Jenna, sarcasm much?

That brings to mind a very interesting essay written by Toby Threadgill, the head of Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu, about assumptions. The part in it where he describes his instructor's actions at a seminar is one of my favorite stories. Assumptions

It ranks right behind the one about John Ray sensei performing MJER iaido kata at an American karate tournament weapons kata competition.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The difficult part for pure aikido (doing only "aiki" techniques) is that aiki arts are NOT designed to work against an aikidoka. Because the principle of aiki depends upon feeling and finding those gaps where aiki works so well, if you practice against someone who is just as skilled at aiki, they are closing those gaps as quickly as you find them. There are two resistance activities we use (both could be called sparring): sparring, which is strikes-only or at least nearly so; and randori, which is grappling-only or nearly so. The randori ends up looking quite a bit more like a Judo competition than anything you'd see in most exercises. This is probably especially true in my program, since I specifically teach how to defeat our techniques and specifically teach non-aiki applications of many techniques.

This is an interesting quandary for any art that specializes in defensive/counter-offensive tactics. In order to get really good at those tactics you have to practice them against good quality attacks. If the curriculum is focused entirely on those defensive/counter-offensive tactics, then where do you get training partners who have the skill to feed you those good attacks? From what I've seen, that seems to be a problem for many schools in the aiki arts, the Takamatsuden arts, and others.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is an interesting quandary for any art that specializes in defensive/counter-offensive tactics. In order to get really good at those tactics you have to practice them against good quality attacks. If the curriculum is focused entirely on those defensive/counter-offensive tactics, then where do you get training partners who have the skill to feed you those good attacks? From what I've seen, that seems to be a problem for many schools in the aiki arts, the Takamatsuden arts, and others.

I train students on how to give realistic attacks, so that they don't get into some of those odd attacks. It is a problem, and often stems from the slow-motion work that's necessary to keep the technique moving when they are first learning it. Sparring helps, as long as they bring some of those same attacks to feed the techniques (I've seen some schools where sparring was good, and the decent attacks from sparring never appeared during technique training).

The hardest part of feeding good attacks IMO is to use good attacking skill, but not the skill of specifically countering the techniques (except during randori, when that's the point). We're trying to provide the kind of attack we should expect from someone who is reasonably coordinated (and later, even someone who's reasonably skilled), but who doesn't have that "aiki" experience. I struggle with this all the time, myself, because if I brought even a little of my "feel" to an attack, it would force them to look into the non-aiki techniques and applications every time.

 

[Steve]

In martial arts it is almost the moment you stop loosing you stop progressing.
I think the higher up in akido you go the less anyone is willing to make you loose.

They dont understand that it is a gift to be toweled up by someone better.

Heard once, if you're the toughest guy in your school, you need to find a new school.

 

[drop bear]

Krav Maga and Aikido are very different martial arts with very different derivations and modalities..

Why in particular do you pick Krav Maga over Aikido if you wish to defend your self?

It is confusing for me.. I have been practicing my Aikido for 22yr and am still not dead. I must be doing something incorrectly? I think I am delusional to practice a supposedly defensive art which like you say is not the best way to go for defence.. I have been wasting my time and I think it is pure luck or guardian angels that have ensured I am not dead nor at least have had my defensive delusions beaten out of me by now.. I cannot go on like this relying on luck, fate and chance.. Help me out.. Help to enlighten my darkness.. throw down your rescue rope into this cavern of Aikido ignorance into which I have apparently fallen and been stuck for 22yr! au secours! x

Self defence doesn't really matter if you are terrible. Most people never use it.

I have friends who cant fight at all and have lived perfectly happy and productive lives.

 

[the42cop]

Krav Maga and Aikido are very different martial arts with very different derivations and modalities..

Why in particular do you pick Krav Maga over Aikido if you wish to defend your self?

It is confusing for me.. I have been practicing my Aikido for 22yr and am still not dead. I must be doing something incorrectly? I think I am delusional to practice a supposedly defensive art which like you say is not the best way to go for defence.. I have been wasting my time and I think it is pure luck or guardian angels that have ensured I am not dead nor at least have had my defensive delusions beaten out of me by now.. I cannot go on like this relying on luck, fate and chance.. Help me out.. Help to enlighten my darkness.. throw down your rescue rope into this cavern of Aikido ignorance into which I have apparently fallen and been stuck for 22yr! au secours! x

I can't speak for your guardian angels or why you haven't inexplicably dropped dead yet...healthy eating perhaps? I'm guessing your lack of being beaten, maimed or killed or whatever has a lot less to do with whatever art you choose to practice and a lot more to do with the fact that you are most likely a reasonable, rational person who chooses NOT to place themselves in danger or start fights with random people. I don't know though... I could be wrong and you could be out bar hopping every night "defending" the crap out of yourself!

Again, my argument isn't an attack of Aikido itself. In my personal experience, most traditional martial arts train people really well on how to defend against people of the same training and style. The real world however is vastly different and what we do in the gym ends up being something completely different when confronted with real violence. The reason I mentioned Krav Maga in particular was because it is a reality based training system that solely practices against blitz attacks, multiple opponents, weapons etc. All under as realistic situations as possible. Even my most current obsession, Brazilian jiu-jitsu is a SPORT and in no way prepares people for real violence. If you are ONLY looking for a way to defend yourself from actual violence, something like Krav Maga is the way to go. If you are looking for the other benefits associated with traditional martial art, then cool... I say more power to you and pick whatever most fits your temperament and goals.

 

[Jenna]

Wow Jenna, sarcasm much?

That brings to mind a very interesting essay written by Toby Threadgill, the head of Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu, about assumptions. The part in it where he describes his instructor's actions at a seminar is one of my favorite stories. Assumptions

It ranks right behind the one about John Ray sensei performing MJER iaido kata at an American karate tournament weapons kata competition.

haha.. ah I am only joking Hey Paul I did not know you were allowed to garotte the participants at your seminars! You pay extra for this special tuition or get money back lolss I like this story though. Thank you for sharing! x

If someone see Aikido as not so great for defence well hey that is ok.. freedom of thought is still allowed! Though I think Paul I am exasperated how a person can with his one tube of red paint, paint a landscape picture and then take his painting around galleries proclaiming that the whole world is actually red.. I mean.. if you follow..

To anyone having studied Aikido specifically to look pretty and get youtube hits or punters in the dojo door then that is fine and but it is of limited efficacy in practical realistic defence.. what other kind is there.. And on the other hand, to anyone having trained their Aikido specifically to handle realistic threat in a realistic manner, then it is a fully specified and functioning and viable solution to neutralising physical threat. That is my experience. And I am still not dead.. so I wait for what the person have to reply and but thank you for your input and this little story.. you have other stories? I like these because they are clear and concise and no BS thank you Paul x

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I can't speak for your guardian angels or why you haven't inexplicably dropped dead yet...healthy eating perhaps? I'm guessing your lack of being beaten, maimed or killed or whatever has a lot less to do with whatever art you choose to practice and a lot more to do with the fact that you are most likely a reasonable, rational person who chooses NOT to place themselves in danger or start fights with random people. I don't know though... I could be wrong and you could be out bar hopping every night "defending" the crap out of yourself!

Again, my argument isn't an attack of Aikido itself. In my personal experience, most traditional martial arts train people really well on how to defend against people of the same training and style. The real world however is vastly different and what we do in the gym ends up being something completely different when confronted with real violence. The reason I mentioned Krav Maga in particular was because it is a reality based training system that solely practices against blitz attacks, multiple opponents, weapons etc. All under as realistic situations as possible. Even my most current obsession, Brazilian jiu-jitsu is a SPORT and in no way prepares people for real violence. If you are ONLY looking for a way to defend yourself from actual violence, something like Krav Maga is the way to go. If you are looking for the other benefits associated with traditional martial art, then cool... I say more power to you and pick whatever most fits your temperament and goals.

If KM truly "solely practices against blitz attacks, multiple opponents, weapons etc.", then how does anyone learn anything? You have to start folks off with something that slows down the attack so they can deal with the response, otherwise you can only teach those who already do something useful in that first flinch. KM definitely tends to work more toward higher-speed attacks, more realistic violence, etc., but it mostly uses the same training techniques (mixed in very different proportions) that I've experienced in SD-oriented TMA. That may be just my experience.

 

[the42cop]

If KM truly "solely practices against blitz attacks, multiple opponents, weapons etc.", then how does anyone learn anything? You have to start folks off with something that slows down the attack so they can deal with the response, otherwise you can only teach those who already do something useful in that first flinch. KM definitely tends to work more toward higher-speed attacks, more realistic violence, etc., but it mostly uses the same training techniques (mixed in very different proportions) that I've experienced in SD-oriented TMA. That may be just my experience.

Of course you have to teach the psychomotor skills before you just start beating on people lol. And most of the actual techniques taught can be interchangeable with many many other styles out there. The difference is in the training methodology and the psychological aspects. If all it took to be able to effectively defend one's self was learning a few moves, you wouldn't have so many black belts in pretty much any discipline getting beat up in street fights. It's what sets Krav Maga and other reality based systems apart from many other styles.

If you take a person who practices a different style... For example Aikido since it is the original topic and run them through realistic full contact blitz attack scenarios over and over by people who are attacking them with a variety of very violent and unorthodox attacks, you will quickly find that Aikido practitioner being able to better defend themselves. The difference between being an effective self defense art and being a sport or traditional "art" that is good for fitness and self improvement and lacking in realistic self defense aptitude has almost nothing to do with what "style" you practice and everything to do with HOW you train.

In my personal experience... And I know there ARE exceptions, most traditional arts poorly prepare their students for violence because of how they train, not because any one system is inherently superior.

I will be writing some new posts about just this sort of thing on my blog if you ever want to read my babbling nonsense! It's something that I'm obviously passionate about since my ability to train others effectively can be the difference between their survival as well as providing the tools necessary to make an arrest with a minimum amount of force necessary. I'm currently working on what is going to probably end up being a few posts about the strengths...and many problems with training scars created when cops train in Brazilian jiu-jitsu alone. Like all arts, it's important to diversify

 

[drop bear]

Of course you have to teach the psychomotor skills before you just start beating on people lol. And most of the actual techniques taught can be interchangeable with many many other styles out there. The difference is in the training methodology and the psychological aspects. If all it took to be able to effectively defend one's self was learning a few moves, you wouldn't have so many black belts in pretty much any discipline getting beat up in street fights. It's what sets Krav Maga and other reality based systems apart from many other styles.

If you take a person who practices a different style... For example Aikido since it is the original topic and run them through realistic full contact blitz attack scenarios over and over by people who are attacking them with a variety of very violent and unorthodox attacks, you will quickly find that Aikido practitioner being able to better defend themselves. The difference between being an effective self defense art and being a sport or traditional "art" that is good for fitness and self improvement and lacking in realistic self defense aptitude has almost nothing to do with what "style" you practice and everything to do with HOW you train.

In my personal experience... And I know there ARE exceptions, most traditional arts poorly prepare their students for violence because of how they train, not because any one system is inherently superior.

I will be writing some new posts about just this sort of thing on my blog if you ever want to read my babbling nonsense! It's something that I'm obviously passionate about since my ability to train others effectively can be the difference between their survival as well as providing the tools necessary to make an arrest with a minimum amount of force necessary. I'm currently working on what is going to probably end up being a few posts about the strengths...and many problems with training scars created when cops train in Brazilian jiu-jitsu alone. Like all arts, it's important to diversify

if you ran fully resisted drills at a guy then eventually he would be able to do the technique pretty effectively. we train fighters in this manner.

you could invent these drills for any system or martial arts. I have mentioned examples of this where we will just pin a guy against a wall and then person after person will just knock him down on to the mat until he can start to defend himself.

a person will basically fail to defend himself week in week out until he gains the requisite skills to defend himself. and it is quite simply infuriating. these drills cause the most dummy spits,crying,walking out in into the car park screaming nasties at everybody than any other exercise we do. but it will teach a person to defend an attack under pressure.

(and maybe some lessons about character in the process)

I have not seen this sort of drill done in krav. what it seems is very similar to akido in that you do drills that the defender is fixed to win.

I was going to show an akido grading and suggest that this is where the standard is set. competency is decided is this format. and suggest it is too removed fromantic fighting.

krav can fall into the same trap for the same reasons.

 

[drop bear]

double bubble post.

 

[Jenna]

I can't speak for your guardian angels or why you haven't inexplicably dropped dead yet...healthy eating perhaps? I'm guessing your lack of being beaten, maimed or killed or whatever has a lot less to do with whatever art you choose to practice and a lot more to do with the fact that you are most likely a reasonable, rational person who chooses NOT to place themselves in danger or start fights with random people. I don't know though... I could be wrong and you could be out bar hopping every night "defending" the crap out of yourself!

Again, my argument isn't an attack of Aikido itself. In my personal experience, most traditional martial arts train people really well on how to defend against people of the same training and style. The real world however is vastly different and what we do in the gym ends up being something completely different when confronted with real violence. The reason I mentioned Krav Maga in particular was because it is a reality based training system that solely practices against blitz attacks, multiple opponents, weapons etc. All under as realistic situations as possible. Even my most current obsession, Brazilian jiu-jitsu is a SPORT and in no way prepares people for real violence. If you are ONLY looking for a way to defend yourself from actual violence, something like Krav Maga is the way to go. If you are looking for the other benefits associated with traditional martial art, then cool... I say more power to you and pick whatever most fits your temperament and goals.

What way were you practicing your Aikido that you realise to your self it was not fit for real world defence?

 

[Jenna]

Self defence doesn't really matter if you are terrible. Most people never use it.

I have friends who cant fight at all and have lived perfectly happy and productive lives.

Of what relevence to me or people I work beside while I am pushing away understandably hostile young men or even some times women in people processing centre is it to know "most people" never use self defence? I cannot even leave in evening without people demand money off of me..

So tell me it is more than platitude to say "most people"?? Who are "most people" in this case and what is the worth of their view of how to defend when they have no need of it nor experience of it???

I am confused.. this is not thread about Aikido as effective defence?