Honoring the Fallen? Exactly who are you respecting?

[Makalakumu]

I'm not making it into anything, I'm answering posts on here that accuse the soldiers ( yours as well) of being naive dupes as well as stupid.

I'm sorry for your loss, Irene. This isn't a time to engage in little political battles. I apologize for coming off as condescending and contemptuous. The bottom line is that I want to stop this madness. I want to stop these losses and make sure the honorable intent behind the will to serve is put to honorable purposes.

 

[Makalakumu]

Dont let em get you down Tez. Its always been my opinion that if you really look at the overall picture of the types who like to look down on soldiers you will find that they are 99.9% males who never served themselves. They will say that it was because they were too smart, or too wired into the reality of life...etc. etc. but I think theres more.

I think its an ego thing to justify some sort of repressed regret for never having stepped up themselves. Much like many guys seem to like to poke at cops. Guys have that "pecking order" thing hardwired and even if they can rationalize a denial of it the soldier, cop ...or anybody else in whats percieved as an "alpha male" role...there seems to be some need to knock them down so you feel better. A lot like some guys overboard homophobia is likely expressed to reinforce their insecurity in their masculinity.

PS-This is not to say that ALL those who never served fall into this category. The vast majority of guys who didnt enlist have no issues whatsoever with insecurity because of it...it was simply a choice. Some of the bravest, toughest and best people I know didnt serve.

But many...espically in the "warrior" Martial Artist crowd...seem to fit the bill. In my experience the types also seem to collect many weapons, motorcycles, study military history, like to do the "navy seal workouts", focus on the "I can shoot better than most cops" thing....

Again, I myself fit into many of those categories. Im just trying to flesh out a "type" that I seem to find. Take that as you will...Im no sociologist/psychologist, and I could very well be projecting, because I joined up in part because as a young man I felt like I was "less" than my buddies who enlisted, so instead of living a life of regrets, wannabeism and "could have been"...I just went and "did".

I could make a comment about "pacifiers" or some such, but why bother?

There are people on this planet that have sincere beliefs and are willing to stand up for those beliefs even if they aren't the same beliefs that you hold dear. You can make up stories about these people and people could make up stories about people who say things like you said.

For instance, a retort could look like, "people who think things like that above are really just upset because they never had the moral backbone to stand up for anything good that was unpopular. Cowards!"

Where does that leave everyone?

I admit, I started this little tiff because I jumped in with some strong beliefs and didn't bother preface them with enough information. I am sorry for that because I realize that makes me come off as a condescending jerk.

What I would like everyone to realize is that I am sincere about what I beleive and about why I beleive it. I want to see Peace in my lifetime and I want to see the sacrifices we make for war turned to bettering humanity.

I also realize that this is going to take questioning of a lot of cherished beliefs and that people are going to have to think of war and how war is financed in a different way. There's a lot of learning that needs to happen. People need to understand how war and international finance connect. They need to understand how both of those connect to public education. They need to understand how our society suffers because of what we sacrifice for war. Being ignorant of these things is not something that needs to be judged. It just is.

All of this stems from a deep spring in me. If you are really interested, I could tell you that story. The bottom line is that my life has given me a perspective that is different then a lot of people and this is based off of many of the attachments that I've formed. This is how it happens for all people regardless of logic.

In the meantime, I keep moving foreward with what I need to do in order to accomplish my goals. Coming here to talk about things isn't the best use of my time, but I have found community here and I do value that.

Anyway, I still believe what I do and I respect you for what you believe. Lets just listen to each other and see what happens.

 

[arnisador]

there's no bloody allure in the armed forces trust me, and I damn well mean it about there being people not fit to lick their boots, the ones who live off social security

Ah, there we go. So it's the poor who are the problem? They're lazy? Seems unrelated to the issue at hand.

don't accuse me of jingoism and don't bloody patronise me.

Patronize you? I thought I was being quite plain in what I said. You've happily swallowed the mythology and refuse to see the facts. If it helps you get through your day, that's fine. Keep believing what you've been told in school and by the govt.

British squaddies are the most cantankerous, most drunken, most troublesome, insubordinate buggers around but I reiterate they are who I want watching my back

Try the IDF. They're incredible.

Don't blame the forces

I'm not sure if you're having trouble following a discussion that forces you to grapple with your internalized rainbow-colored view of things or if you're intentionally changing to this as an ad hominem attack, but no one is blaming the armed forces for anything--that doesn't even make sense. We were discussing what motivates people to join the service. Simplistic "You don't support the troops" rhetoric and assigning blame for the current wars is just distraction for those unable to defend their position.

It's fine sitting at a computer pontificating about peace and how we should be brothers but you government sort of forgot that didn't they when the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan was mooted.

I'm not the one who was pontificating about peace--that was maunakumu. I only agreed with him that economic incentives and positive portrayals help encourage people to join the service. You are arguing against money and the military lifestyle being a factor in people choosing to join the service if you are arguing with me.

Your position is basically that of the armed services' advertising firms. If that simplified view of things makes your day go by more smoothly, enjoy it. It doesn't matter to me.

The attack was also a personal one on me for being 'romantic' and 'jingoistic' which is bollocks, the military here whether at war or not are contributing to the country, earning their living and trying to make a good life for them and theirs while we have layabouts who live off the tax payer, have countless kids we pay for, live rent free, are given money every week out of the public purse and I sodding well get called jingoistic for saying they aren't fit to lick the boots of servicemen?.

Yup. Denigrating others to subhuman status in order to glorify the servicemen is exactly that.

 

[Tez3]

arnisdor, you really are determined to put words into my mouth aren't you. The poor, really, you think it's the poor thats the problem, my dear man, you have really no idea how things are here have you. These aren't poor people, they are chavs, people who make a living, a very good living out of benefit fraud. The poor are out there working and doing the best they can.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bradford/8125364.stm
http://www.northernireland.gov.uk/news/news-dsd/news-dsd-080709-four-convicted-of.htm
http://www.huntsdc.gov.uk/News+and+...008/February/benefit+fraud+cases+in+court.htm

Swallow the myth? what myth? I served in the forces and continue to work with them, been with them for 37 years now, so what bloody myth? I know the realities better than you. I would tell people not to join up unless they really knew what they were getting into.

Oh and my parents were IDF, I have dual nationality, and yes that is allowed here.

Hey I don't give a fig for your inventions and sly turning of what I say, if you chose to think parts of my posts are about you, well, if the cap fits wear it.

 

[Tez3]

the British Army 'denigrating people to make them look subhuman'

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/MilitaryOperations/GurkhasToMentorSanginsNewPolice.htm
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/D...RoyalEngineersHelpReconstructionInHelmand.htm
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/DefencePolicyAndBusiness/ReconstructingLashkarGah.htm
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/D...paresTroopsForWinningAfghanHeartsAndMinds.htm
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/D...litaryAfghanJournalistsDevelopTheirSkills.htm

 

[seasoned]

I am creating a Foundation that is dedicated to Liberty and Peace. This Foundation will fund a private school, a multi-media company, and a wellness clinic. I may not see peace in this world in my life time, but I will die knowing that I worked for it.

I can't fault you for that. Everyone should strive for peace, but have the forth sight to know when that peace, and the freedoms that go along with it, are in jeopardy. I commend you for your work, but it is the people that walk that wall, that afford us the luxury to do that work you talk about.

 

[arnisador]

the British Army 'denigrating people to make them look subhuman'

This wasn't about the British Army, so your links are irrelevant. It was about you in particular describing a broad swath of the British public as being literally unfit to lick the boots of British soldiers. That is a statement that debases people in order to put all individual members of the military on a pedestal as more-than-merely-human altruists. If there's one tyhing I have learned from working with the military, it's that their backgrounds and motivations for serving are diverse and not easily summarized. Perhaps it's different over there and all enlistees have the same groupthink. But once again you are attempting to deflect attention from your own degrading statements about others who are different from you. I'm speaking of your statements. Post footage of you helping the poor.

 

[Makalakumu]

I can't fault you for that. Everyone should strive for peace, but have the forth sight to know when that peace, and the freedoms that go along with it, are in jeopardy. I commend you for your work, but it is the people that walk that wall, that afford us the luxury to do that work you talk about.

I feel dis-illusioned because I don't see our military doing this and I feel that they haven't done this for a long time. I know there is a need to "stand up on the wall" and protect our society and I feel that we should look at this as more of an unfortunately necessity lest we grow to fond of our wars and our warriors and too easily dismiss the prices that we pay for them.

As far as honoring the fallen, for me it is a matter of perspective. There was a lot that went into creating war that many people don't realize. So much that it all seems so bloody tragic because it all could have been avoided. Thus I feel the way that I do. It doesn't seem so honorable when percieved so tragically.

 

[seasoned]

I thought you were a peace maker. You sure have some strong opinions pertaining to the military. I feel the military, as with society itself, has good and bad, in their ranks. But in either case, I am not going to abandon one or the other. There are times I feel life sucks, and most of the people in it, but then it would be very lonely living here alone. As for the military, they serve a very important mission. The only way we can fully realize that is to eliminate them. But by doing that, we would heap destruction onto ourself, because this world has many barbarians in it that think peace is a 4 letter word.

 

[Makalakumu]

I thought you were a peace maker. You sure have some strong opinions pertaining to the military. I feel the military, as with society itself, has good and bad, in their ranks. But in either case, I am not going to abandon one or the other. There are times I feel life sucks, and most of the people in it, but then it would be very lonely living here alone. As for the military, they serve a very important mission. The only way we can fully realize that is to eliminate them. But by doing that, we would heap destruction onto ourself, because this world has many barbarians in it that think peace is a 4 letter word.

I'm not anti-military. I do see a need. However, I also feel that it is being misused. In my mind, people standing up and fighting as a last resort, learning from the situation so it doesn't happen again, and people basically living peacefully with each other. I view standing armies as a waste and a monumental threat to our freedoms. This view is a combination of the views shared by Thomas Jefferson and Dwight Eisenhower.

We've got a long way to go in order to see real change in current attitudes.

PS - upon re-reading previous posts in this thread, I feel the need to point out my self righteousness and apologize for it. That's not effective communication on my behalf.

 

[Tez3]

This wasn't about the British Army, so your links are irrelevant. It was about you in particular describing a broad swath of the British public as being literally unfit to lick the boots of British soldiers. That is a statement that debases people in order to put all individual members of the military on a pedestal as more-than-merely-human altruists. If there's one tyhing I have learned from working with the military, it's that their backgrounds and motivations for serving are diverse and not easily summarized. Perhaps it's different over there and all enlistees have the same groupthink. But once again you are attempting to deflect attention from your own degrading statements about others who are different from you. I'm speaking of your statements. Post footage of you helping the poor.

Are you calling the British public criminals then, you've got a cheek haven't you? I said the people who are benefit fraudsters and you decide that's a greater part of the British public. Well we can see where you're coming from then. Not anti British much are you?
I have said nothing about the poor people of this country, you brought that up, I am talking about the people who claim benefits and shouldn't, they cost this country billions of pounds. If you had bothered to look at the links I put up you will know that but you choose to twist my words again and again.


Once again just to clear this up for you, this is who I'm talking about not the 'poor' or the greater swathe of Britain ( do you think we are a third world country btw to have so many poor?)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ailed-after-secretly-filmed-playing-golf.html
do note how much he's defrauded the country and perhaps you'll see why the taxpayers here aren't happy bunnies about people like this.
And how about this one £35,000 he claimed fraudulently, thats more than many earn in a year through honest work.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...caught-pushing-cars-around-his-scrapyard.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/southern_counties/5303356.stm

this one, £77,000
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...icer-who-conned-77000-in-benefits-jailed.html


and you're telling me I'm debasing these people, chum, you are having a laugh.

 

[Tez3]

This is a digression but I think a necessary one because I don't think non Brits understand what we mean here when we talk about people who are on benefits but don't bother working etc. It's being confused with people who are poor. We have many genuine claimants for benefits and I wouldn't begrudge them a penny.We have many who work two jobs because they are too proud to go on benefits.
Here all working people pay National Insurance, this is for our medical needs plus if we are unemployed we can claim dole money. Also if you are unemployed you can claim housing benefit plus claim for a great many other things,there are currently 50 types of claim you can make. Single parent don't have to go out to work until their youngest child is 16 and little attempt is made to make people who are able bodied find work.
A sub culture has developed here where there are people who live very comfortably on these benefits while either not attempting to find work or while working for 'cash in hand'. Many claim disability while not having any.

This isn't to start a debate on whether we should have this system, that could make another probably quite interesting thread but it's to explain to you why the tax payers here are sick to the back teeth of subsiding benefit cheats and of course the many who flock here thinking they will get them too.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-map-Britain-shows-sicknote-culture-end.html

http://www.politics.co.uk/news/welf...000-receive-over-20k-in-benefits-$1257510.htm

If you were paying for these cheats with your money wouldn't you think the average soldier was worth a hundred times more than these people?

 

[arnisador]

Are you calling the British public criminals then, you've got a cheek haven't you?

Good night.

 

[Tez3]

Good night.

:lfao:

So rather than admit you took what I wrote the wrong way you throw your teddy out of the pram, oh well c'est la vie.

Perhaps now we can get back to the discusson in hand.

 

[Archangel M]

This is a digression but I think a necessary one because I don't think non Brits understand what we mean here when we talk about people who are on benefits but don't bother working etc. It's being confused with people who are poor. We have many genuine claimants for benefits and I wouldn't begrudge them a penny.We have many who work two jobs because they are too proud to go on benefits.
Here all working people pay National Insurance, this is for our medical needs plus if we are unemployed we can claim dole money. Also if you are unemployed you can claim housing benefit plus claim for a great many other things,there are currently 50 types of claim you can make. Single parent don't have to go out to work until their youngest child is 16 and little attempt is made to make people who are able bodied find work.
A sub culture has developed here where there are people who live very comfortably on these benefits while either not attempting to find work or while working for 'cash in hand'. Many claim disability while not having any.

This isn't to start a debate on whether we should have this system, that could make another probably quite interesting thread but it's to explain to you why the tax payers here are sick to the back teeth of subsiding benefit cheats and of course the many who flock here thinking they will get them too.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-map-Britain-shows-sicknote-culture-end.html

http://www.politics.co.uk/news/welf...000-receive-over-20k-in-benefits-$1257510.htm

If you were paying for these cheats with your money wouldn't you think the average soldier was worth a hundred times more than these people?

Yet thats exactly the situation a lot of my countrymen want to steer the USA into. :erg:

 

[Tez3]

Yet thats exactly the situation a lot of my countrymen want to steer the USA into. :erg:

I begrudge no one benefits when they need it but too many think it's a way of life and don't attempt to try to find work. I'm sure there's a fair few soldiers who have joined up to make something of themselves and to earn their living honestly and it's these that deserve our respect not scroungers.

This is the current ad for the British Army, hardly gung ho or jingoistic. If you have answers though you should probably start another thread lol!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwL7POYpiDw&feature=related

 

[Makalakumu]

I started another thread on military spending. Hopefully we'll spin off some energy into there.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1197679#post1197679

 

[Archangel M]

Wow...what a despicable sentiment. Better men than you and I die for our freedoms and you make a statement like this....wow.

I just found a quote from...what do ya know a career military man...Gen. Patton that made me think of this thread.

“Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

 

[Carol]

Hey we wouldn't have had to worry about war if we had just given in to that pesky Yamamoto guy. He was so looking forward to dictating peace from the White House.

Sorry...was that too cynical? :lol2:

 

[Makalakumu]

I just found a quote from...what do ya know a career military man...Gen. Patton that made me think of this thread.

“Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

Indeed...