Honoring the Fallen? Exactly who are you respecting?

[arnisador]

Regarding Afghanistan, given the Taliban's treatment of women etc., I don't feel much for them--they're not exactly dying in a noble cause. But my lack of regard for them is based on their extreme zealotry in the cause of their interpretations of the laws of one of the Abrahamic religions, not based on how they're fighting--that's the difference.

One lesson of the My Lai massacre is the danger of over-demonizing the enemy.

You obviously have a closer connection to the wars than most of us, but given the scale of these wars and the heavy use of reserve/guard personnel it's fair to say most of us have some sort of connection to it. It's personal for just about everyone at this point.

 

[Tez3]

Regarding Afghanistan, given the Taliban's treatment of women etc., I don't feel much for them--they're not exactly dying in a noble cause. But my lack of regard for them is based on their extreme zealotry in the cause of their interpretations of the laws of one of the Abrahamic religions, not based on how they're fighting--that's the difference.

One lesson of the My Lai massacre is the danger of over-demonizing the enemy.

You obviously have a closer connection to the wars than most of us, but given the scale of these wars and the heavy use of reserve/guard personnel it's fair to say most of us have some sort of connection to it. It's personal for just about everyone at this point.

Seasoned is right, it's a simple point, I'm with him, my respect is for my students, friends and colleagues out there,along with their fellow service people and allies.... This isn't sparring in the dojo or even fighting in the cage, it's real life and it's bloody. Nobody is shaking hands after the battle, no game of football on Christmas Eve across No Man's Land. No one is demonising the enemy or saying they fight dishounourably. this isn't the first time we've fought in Afghanistan and the tactics are the same as they were then just more modern weapons.
Here's what our lads are doing at the moment ( ours as in British and American plus other Nato countries) you must of seen in in the news, it's the biggest push there they've done. no ones wailing about how unfair it is to our troops at all.
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/D...sAfghanAndBritishOperationDisruptsTaliban.htm

 

[arnisador]

no game of football on Christmas Eve across No Man's Land.

Yet, there's a reason that image is so evocative.

Regarding the Wounded Knee Massacre, then, my sympathies and respect should lie only with the 25 U.S. servicemen killed, not the 150 "enemy" they slew? It's that simple? Or does all this only apply to the current battles, not ones in the past?

 

[Tez3]

Yet, there's a reason that image is so evocative.

Regarding the Wounded Knee Massacre, then, my sympathies and respect should lie only with the 25 U.S. servicemen killed, not the 150 "enemy" they slew? It's that simple? Or does all this only apply to the current battles, not ones in the past?

Past battles are past and can be looked at objectively. The current war is too close and too raw to consider respect when the only consideration is leaving alive and unhurt. With current battles, it's not a case of respect or disrespect as such. Respect, if it's going to, will come with hindsight when old soldiers reminisce not now.
For example, we lost seven soldiers this weekend and the grief is awful. Each death of a service person diminishes us all.

 

[arnisador]

Past battles are past and can be looked at objectively. The current war is too close and too raw to consider respect when the only consideration is leaving alive and unhurt. With current battles, it's not a case of respect or disrespect as such. Respect, if it's going to, will come with hindsight when old soldiers reminisce not now.

This position I can certainly accept. Everyone has a friend or relative in either Iraq or Afghanistan right now, it seems.

 

[Tez3]

This position I can certainly accept. Everyone has a friend or relative in either Iraq or Afghanistan right now, it seems.

I live and work on the largest garrison in Europe, most of our students are soldiers and the children of soldiers. Some of my colleagues in the job I do are also out in Iraq and Afghanistan. One of my students was killed in Afghanistan earlier this year, I've also known several of the soldiers killed out there including a female medic.
We have several regiments here who are going back out later this year. We also have the Infantry Training Centre here where all the recruits are trained, so most of those killed have been here. the local community is very tied in with the service population here. My work is very much dealing with soldiers and MOD civilians.

 

[arnisador]

Most of the cadets I taught while I was at West Point are now about transitioning from Captain to Major, and so I have former students out there who are still in the thick of things. (I say this as though the concept of being in the rear and safe still made any sense at all.) I cringe as I read the "Names of the Dead" in the NY Times, waiting to come across one of my cadets.

 

[Makalakumu]

This is a very complicated issue for me. I've spent a lot of my adult life sifting through the jingoist propaganda and obfuscation that is used to manipulate populations into serving interests of an entrenched oligarchy. There were several good examples brought up in this thread where one side spins information to "create" enemies and "reasons" to kill each other.

Another good example, IMHO, is the way the phrases "support or troops" and "protecting our freedom" get used. When I look at modern wars conducted by an all volunteer force, I do not see them as engaged in conflict to protect our freedom and I certainly don't feel compelled to support because they bought a message that I essentially view as a lie.

I realize this will come off as extremely unpopular given the amount of messages in which we are exposed every day that shape our society to fight and kill for the benefits of a few. However, all of this is stemming from a general abhorance of war and for the excuses for going to war and for the people that benefit by causing war.

I will respectfully mourn for people who are forced to fight to protect their families and their lives. I will pity those who buy into the lies and are tricked into throwing their lives away in conflicts far from their homes. I will also pity those who are forced into conflicts because they feel that they have no other choice but to fight and kill.

I will HONOR those few who stand up for truth and for peace, who understand that their are very few reasons that we should be fighting and killing each other, who are the sovereign masters of their own minds and consciously choose to live their principles every day of their lives.

War is the most obscene word in any language. In my opinion, there is no reason we should honor anyone who engages in it.

 

[arnisador]

War is the most obscene word in any language. In my opinion, there is no reason we should honor anyone who engages in it.

I agreed or at least sympathized with much of what you said, but I can't follow you here. The Americans who died in WWII in Europe, for example, did a good thing and deserve praise and honor for it. What's being done in Afghanistan is intended to prevent another 9/11 and while that may or may not be what happens (or the best way to achieve it), I'm glad there are people prepared to do that for me.

Let's continue being frank, though. The military doesn't pay all that well, though it does have a nice pension plan. Speaking with reverence of the Soldier is a form of non-monetary payment in the form of ego strokes that helps keep the cost of an army down by encouraging people to do that job partially in return for wanted respect. There's an economic motivation behind the outpouring of respect...as there is in praising how hard it is to be a schoolteacher, where again praise and respect are substituted for higher taxes.

But that doesn't mean that much of it isn't actually deserving of respect...if you join the service, especially now, I'm proud of you for it. It just means the patriotism is played up for dollar-related reasons too.

 

[Makalakumu]

I agreed or at least sympathized with much of what you said, but I can't follow you here. The Americans who died in WWII in Europe, for example, did a good thing and deserve praise and honor for it. What's being done in Afghanistan is intended to prevent another 9/11 and while that may or may not be what happens (or the best way to achieve it), I'm glad there are people prepared to do that for me.

We are never given all of the information when we, as a society, have to make decisions regarding war. For example, would American's have been so eager to fight the Nazi's if it would have shared that American Financial Interests funded their rise to power? Or would we be so keen on going into Afghanistan if it would have been shown that multinational corporations were viewing the Taliban mainly as as an obstacle to the extraction of resources? As far as 9/11 is concerned, that is an unresolved issue for me. I believe that we don't really know what happened on that day...and that we never will...so I'm not so willing to support war in the name of that attack.

In any regard, I believe there is always another way besides war. People who pick up arms and kill each other decide to do so at the expense of living peacefully. For me, it's as simple as that...and that is not an honorable decision, in my opinion. If I choose to pick up a weapon to defend myself or my family, that is still a choice that I would make and its not something that I should be lionized for. It's a regrettable, unfortunately, and terrible situation that myself and other people around me should be working in concert to prevent.

Let's continue being frank, though. The military doesn't pay all that well, though it does have a nice pension plan. Speaking with reverence of the Soldier is a form of non-monetary payment in the form of ego strokes that helps keep the cost of an army down by encouraging people to do that job partially in return for wanted respect. There's an economic motivation behind the outpouring of respect...as there is in praising how hard it is to be a schoolteacher, where again praise and respect are substituted for higher taxes.

I agree and I would add that it's also part of being in a militaristic society that clings to many aspects of colonialism where the intent of foreign adventures is to take whatever we can by force. The people who benefit from this system need to convince people that doing this is the "right" thing to do and they need to actually convince people to do it. The praise serves a social function in propagating the system.

...if you join the service, especially now, I'm proud of you for it.

I feel terrible for people who volunteer for the armed forces. IMO, they don't know who they really serve and they have to sell themselves in ways that are too terrible to mention. Imagine giving your life so another person can get rich? Imagine being convinced to do so because you sincerely wish to protect your family and your community? Imagine fighting thousands of miles away and realizing that it's all a lie. People who volunteer deserve our pity and our efforts to put a stop to these terrible wars. IMO, there's nothing to have pride in and nothing honorable being done. This is a tragedy and the people who caused it for their benefit deserve our collective anger.

 

[Archangel M]

We are never given all of the information when we, as a society, have to make decisions regarding war. For example, would American's have been so eager to fight the Nazi's if it would have shared that American Financial Interests funded their rise to power?

The "real reason" we went into WWII is separate from if it was "right" to get into WWII.

In any regard, I believe there is always another way besides war. People who pick up arms and kill each other decide to do so at the expense of living peacefully. For me, it's as simple as that....

Like Chamberlin with his "peace in our time" idea while Hitler invaded all of Europe? When your neighbor is being slaughtered and you decide to "pick up arms" only to "protect your own"...I call that cowardice.

Sorry..it sounds like a lot of justifications to me....while its never "good" sometimes war is absolutely necessary.

 

[Tez3]

To suggest the Armed Forces volunteer in ignorance is an insult to their intelligence. The British squaddie from the days of Agincourt has known exactly what they are doing and why but they still do it, why? because they are British squaddies and thats what they do.
if you want to know what they think about the Afghan war have a peek at this, don't be offended, they are plain speaking and they've never been gung ho.
http://www.arrse.co.uk/Forums/viewtopic/t=127752/postdays=0/postorder=asc/start=0.html
http://www.arrse.co.uk/Forums/viewtopic/t=127680.html
http://www.arrse.co.uk/Forums/viewtopic/t=127580.html

 

[Makalakumu]

To suggest the Armed Forces volunteer in ignorance is an insult to their intelligence. The British squaddie from the days of Agincourt has known exactly what they are doing and why but they still do it, why? because they are British squaddies and thats what they do.

If you want to know what they think about the Afghan war have a peek at this, don't be offended, they are plain speaking and they've never been gung ho.

http://www.arrse.co.uk/Forums/viewtopic/t=127752/postdays=0/postorder=asc/start=0.html
http://www.arrse.co.uk/Forums/viewtopic/t=127680.html
http://www.arrse.co.uk/Forums/viewtopic/t=127580.html

If this is how people feel, why are their so many re-enlistments? If people really feel like its a waste of time and that the situation is messed up and that they shouldn't even be there, then why are "the troops" continuing to fight? On a large scale, I can't think of anything but mass ignorance that would be an adequate explanation. I feel terrible for all of these guys knowing that they are putting their lives on the line everyday for a war that is not worth their sacrifice.

 

[Makalakumu]

The "real reason" we went into WWII is separate from if it was "right" to get into WWII.

I understand what you are saying here, however, I think that you are missing the point that I was trying to make. Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Regime that followed never had to happen. During his whole rise to power and all of the way up through the war, he was funded by financial interests that were based in Western Europe and the United States. If these banks had stopped making loans to Germany, the Nazis would have crumbled peacefully.

The point I am making is that the money for these war machines has to come from somewhere. No loans = no war. All of this begs a very important question. Why? Why are regimes like the Nazis built up? Why do international banks fund both sides in a conflict? Why are loans made to nations when they clearly will lead to war?

When one begins to study the financial history of the world, some very interesting things begin to come clear.

Like Chamberlin with his "peace in our time" idea while Hitler invaded all of Europe? When your neighbor is being slaughtered and you decide to "pick up arms" only to "protect your own"...I call that cowardice.

Sorry..it sounds like a lot of justifications to me....while its never "good" sometimes war is absolutely necessary.

I agree with you here. Sometimes a situation progresses to a point where war becomes necessary. We collectively get to those points by making choices that lead to them. It isn't an Honorable outcome, IMO. It's tragic.

 

[seasoned]

If this is how people feel, why are their so many re-enlistments? If people really feel like its a waste of time and that the situation is messed up and that they shouldn't even be there, then why are "the troops" continuing to fight? On a large scale, I can't think of anything but mass ignorance that would be an adequate explanation. I feel terrible for all of these guys knowing that they are putting their lives on the line everyday for a war that is not worth their sacrifice.

The war is not about Afghanistan, that is just where we are taking a stand, for now. Pakistan is the real problem, with their unstable government, and a nuclear arsenal that could fall into the wrong hands. Thats why we are there.

 

[Makalakumu]

The war is not about Afghanistan, that is just where we are taking a stand, for now. Pakistan is the real problem, with their unstable government, and a nuclear arsenal that could fall into the wrong hands. Thats why we are there.

That's the story that I keep hearing. Even heard it from the Soviets who also thought it would be nice to have a trade route straight up through central Asia. IMO, its more complicated then that, Seasoned. First Afghanistan, THEN Pakistan...

 

[Archangel M]

If everybody would argee to "play nice" then there would be no reason for war. If you believe that if WE would only do "x" then there would be no war than I think you are extremely naive.

All the "if onlys" here smack of time travel and bell un-ringing. While we as a nation should do our best to "play fair", we also have to look out for our citizens safety and interests. If that leads to war against thouse who would harm us then so be it. Anybody with as much knowledge of human history and human nature as they seem to believe they have will see that thousands of years of EXACTLY the same behavior should be a pretty good indicator of what other nations are ready and willing to inflict upon us if given the opportunity....

BTW: I have meet MANY people in uniform that I believe are FAR more intilligent and "clear eyed" about why they do what they do than some folks who like to look down their smug noses at servicemen and women as "ignorant".

 

[arnisador]

We are never given all of the information when we, as a society, have to make decisions regarding war. For example, would American's have been so eager to fight the Nazi's if it would have shared that American Financial Interests funded their rise to power? Or would we be so keen on going into Afghanistan if it would have been shown that multinational corporations were viewing the Taliban mainly as as an obstacle to the extraction of resources? As far as 9/11 is concerned, that is an unresolved issue for me. I believe that we don't really know what happened on that day...and that we never will...so I'm not so willing to support war in the name of that attack.

In any regard, I believe there is always another way besides war. People who pick up arms and kill each other decide to do so at the expense of living peacefully. For me, it's as simple as that...
[...]
I feel terrible for people who volunteer for the armed forces. IMO, they don't know who they really serve and they have to sell themselves in ways that are too terrible to mention.

Wow. OK, you and I are very far apart in our views on these things.

 

[Makalakumu]

If everybody would argee to "play nice" then there would be no reason for war. If you believe that if WE would only do "x" then there would be no war than I think you are extremely naive.

All the "if onlys" here smack of time travel and bell un-ringing. While we as a nation should do our best to "play fair", we also have to look out for our citizens safety and interests. If that leads to war against thouse who would harm us then so be it. Anybody with as much knowledge of human history and human nature as they seem to believe they have will see that thousands of years of EXACTLY the same behavior should be a pretty good indicator of what other nations are ready and willing to inflict upon us if given the opportunity....

BTW: I have meet MANY people in uniform that I believe are FAR more intilligent and "clear eyed" about why they do what they do than some folks who like to look down their smug noses at servicemen and women as "ignorant".

There will always be a need to defend oneself. That is different then gallavanting across the world with colonial ambitions. I've met my fair share of servicemen and women who have a clear idea in their hearts about serving and protecting their countrymen. This idea is an honorable idea...yet the idea, IMO, is very far from reality. Many soldiers discover this too late...check out Tez3's sources. There's nothing honorable about fighting these kinds of wars...its tragic.

Looking at the financial side of war is definitely not unringing the bell or time travel or what not. THAT is the key, as I mentioned before, to stopping it. If one learns as much as one can about who pays the bills then one will learn who they really serve. If we remove the power make loans and fund both sides, then we remove the power of financial interests to use war as a tool.

As long as we allow banks and governments in collusion to create money via loans, we give the control of our young men and women into the hands of the people who can create the money. This is the way its been throughout our modern era going back hundreds of years to the inception of the ideas for fiat currency and fractional reserve banking. There's no shame in ignorance. It's simply something that must change if we want peace in our world.

 

[seasoned]

There will always be a need to defend oneself. That is different then gallavanting across the world with colonial ambitions. I've met my fair share of servicemen and women who have a clear idea in their hearts about serving and protecting their countrymen. This idea is an honorable idea...yet the idea, IMO, is very far from reality. Many soldiers discover this too late...check out Tez3's sources. There's nothing honorable about fighting these kinds of wars...its tragic.

Looking at the financial side of war is definitely not unringing the bell or time travel or what not. THAT is the key, as I mentioned before, to stopping it. If one learns as much as one can about who pays the bills then one will learn who they really serve. If we remove the power make loans and fund both sides, then we remove the power of financial interests to use war as a tool.

As long as we allow banks and governments in collusion to create money via loans, we give the control of our young men and women into the hands of the people who can create the money. This is the way its been throughout our modern era going back hundreds of years to the inception of the ideas for fiat currency and fractional reserve banking. There's no shame in ignorance. It's simply something that must change if we want peace in our world.

Not to get too religious here, but there will never be peace, on this earth. There will always be wars.