Honor or Freedom

[loki09789]

So back to the question. Why even bother to study an art? Its no different than spending thousands to go to Harvard to study law and then get a job flipping burgers at McDonalds!

Mike

It isn't a matter of why do you bother training, but a matter of making sure that your training is complete enough to be prepared (mentally and physically) and that your practiced, responsive training isn't going to land you in jail.

I am reasonably confident that my self defense training is in alignment with the general tone of force/deadly force laws, still street effective and will get me home alive if I have to use it (meaning from awareness training all the way to police interviews).

Self defense/combatives training is only effective if you know what 'fight' you are preparing for (see my 'arena' point). You can't be self defense effective if you are training in a vacuum that ignores or rebels against the system. It is a good system overall. Frustration comes when what we have been doing isn't jiving with it (cognetive dissonence).

 

[MJS]

It isn't a matter of why do you bother training, but a matter of making sure that your training is complete enough to be prepared (mentally and physically) and that your practiced, responsive training isn't going to land you in jail.

First off, thanks for replying. Second, I'm confident in my training, and feel that I am capable of defending myself. As for the landing in jail part...it just seems to me, that no matter what you do, someone (Bystanders, the court, the jury, etc) will have a bad picture of you painted in their mind. As I said before, it seems that no matter what you do, there will always be someone looking down at you. From something as simple as a throw to as deadly as brekaing the guys neck, you'll still be under the microscope and have people say, "Well, why did you have to throw him like that?"

Self defense/combatives training is only effective if you know what 'fight' you are preparing for (see my 'arena' point). You can't be self defense effective if you are training in a vacuum that ignores or rebels against the system. It is a good system overall. Frustration comes when what we have been doing isn't jiving with it (cognetive dissonence).

Well, looking at my profile, I'd say that all of those arts are street effective. Again, it seems that the system leans towards the bad guy. For example. Its winter time. You are walking into a store. The entry way has a carpet, but there is still snow, slush, etc. on the floor. There is a sign up saying, "Caution- Wet Floor" Now, you come walking in quickly, and slip and fall. VERY good chance that person is gonna sue the store. Why?? There was a sign up telling about the wet floor, you could physically see that the floor is wet, but you still came in without exercising caution. The outcome---The store will settle with a large amount of money. I cant believe that the jury would still sit there and award someone money, while in the back of their mind think, "What a dumbass! They are sueing, when the fall was caused by their own negligence" To me, that does not sound like a very reliable system.

Mike

 

[loki09789]

Well, looking at my profile, I'd say that all of those arts are street effective. Again, it seems that the system leans towards the bad guy. For example. Its winter time. You are walking into a store. The entry way has a carpet, but there is still snow, slush, etc. on the floor. There is a sign up saying, "Caution- Wet Floor" Now, you come walking in quickly, and slip and fall. VERY good chance that person is gonna sue the store. Why?? There was a sign up telling about the wet floor, you could physically see that the floor is wet, but you still came in without exercising caution. The outcome---The store will settle with a large amount of money. I cant believe that the jury would still sit there and award someone money, while in the back of their mind think, "What a dumbass! They are sueing, when the fall was caused by their own negligence" To me, that does not sound like a very reliable system.

Mike

Mike,
Again, the 'you' was plural not 'you' as in only Mike. I know your profile, but let me play devils advocate here: Does any of the prior training you have address penal law and use of force? Have you ever been exposed to awareness training other than those specifically resulting in crash and bang?

In your example about personal liablity/sueing someone you talk about observing/awareness and choice making as critical skills, those are what I am saying have to be developed beyond and separately from artistic skills of striking and fighting. Solid Self defense training is more than just having street techniques.

As far as the 'they can sue' thing. I don't know if it is the system that is at fault as much as those who try and take advantage of it, or the judges/legal people who don't just look at this stuff and say "why are you wasting my time, get out of here"... but that wouldn't be fair and equal. Sometimes taking the high road means putting up with birdy doo doo on your windshield

 

[MJS]

Mike,

Again, the 'you' was plural not 'you' as in only Mike.

Yes, I realize that. I was not saying that you were specifically talking about me.

I know your profile, but let me play devils advocate here: Does any of the prior training you have address penal law and use of force?

No

Have you ever been exposed to awareness training other than those specifically resulting in crash and bang?

When I worked in Corrections, we had our SD tech. that we could do in the event that we were attacked. IMO, I thought that they were a joke, and that if attempted, serious injury...on MY part would result.

In your example about personal liablity/sueing someone you talk about observing/awareness and choice making as critical skills, those are what I am saying have to be developed beyond and separately from artistic skills of striking and fighting. Solid Self defense training is more than just having street techniques.

I'm speaking only for myself here. I feel that I, after this amount of time, fully know how to exercise the proper control/force. I'm simply saying that if someone is hell bent on trying to kill me, and ALL other options have been used, then I can't just stand by and let this guy kill me. IMO, the locking, controlling, trying to talk your way out of it techs. are no longer applied.

As far as the 'they can sue' thing. I don't know if it is the system that is at fault as much as those who try and take advantage of it, or the judges/legal people who don't just look at this stuff and say "why are you wasting my time, get out of here"... but that wouldn't be fair and equal. Sometimes taking the high road means putting up with birdy doo doo on your windshield

IMO, its the system. Once both sides are heard, the stupidity of the entire case should come to light, and be thrown out. Its no different than someone speeding through an intersection, running a light and getting into an accident, and they turn around and say that they had no knowledge that by doing that, they'd get hurt.

Mike

 

[MJS]

The below posts were copied from the Kenponet. The topic is Attackers with Knives. As you can see, all of the people have the same mind set here as I was talking about.

One thing I always keep in mind is my lifestyle and under what circumstances I'd ever be attacked. Because I'm a civilian, not a cop, not a bouncer, not security, not vain, and do my best to avoid shady situations, the odds of me running across trouble as part of my daily routine are slim.

With that said, were to get into even an unarmed situation, it is probably going to be very serious, and it will probably necessitate inflicting severe injury and or maiming. After my attempts to avoid conflict have failed through removal of myself from the situation (the first legal recourse) and diplomacy, then by virtue of me being in the conflict to begin with escalates the engagement to a critical platform. The person(s) at that point really want me down, and are very intent in their actions to do harm. It is situations like this that kenpo is truly needed.

Taking this same notion up to the critical threat that is the knife, I'd regard any situation as mortal combat, and would respond accordingly and in alignment with my own ethical principles. Furthermore, I assume they CAN move like Ramy Presas, and consequently my commitment to obliterate them is 100% - contact maintenance is the stage to assess the need to continue the assault. All things are circumstantial, of course, but for the argument above I consider any engagement "deadly until deemed otherwise".

In dealing with a knife wielding attacker there is only one thing to assume. This person wants you dead or is willing to kill for what they want. The situation should be treated as such. I choose not to guess the attackers intent. By deciding that I am in a life or death situaution all mental filters are removed and action can unfold unhindered by indecision or guess work. Should I be forced to take the life of the attacker my conscience can be clear of guilt because I have put forth the thought and made the decision well in advance as to what I would kill for. (there are very few things that I would kill for by the way). This is something my instructor Marcus Buonfiglio and I have talked about on many occassions.

Now dealing with the attack itself. In the UKF we always view the body as the primary weapon. Disable the body and you remove the threat. That being said the knife does have to be dealt with. The three D's come to mind. Deflect, Dominate and Destroy while always maintaining control of the knife. I know easier said then done. I have never been in this type of situation but we train avidly for it and utilize many different variations of the three D's depending on the attack.

Since Kenpo is a empty handed system we do well with Empty hand confrontations,but when the stakes are then weapon against a empty handed now...simply "Shoot" the S.O.B.and worry about the judged by 12 versus carried by 6 motto.This has always baffled me when people are so naive to real deal situations..just like the recent War we watch on TV...we are so caught up with hurting feelings and pissing off the wrong people,well guess what"Its a War"its about you **ck with us will "Dig your *** in the Dirt" thats why its called War.
If you talk to Master Mike Pick he will make "Teryaki" out of your backside if you pull a kinife on him.
Once in New York while a was on a patrol with Guardian Angels we were on the subway and some jackass pulled a knife on us to impress his fellow gang members...End result,he recieved from me a Autographed HeelPalm along side his jaw..Lights Out!!!
So if you pull a knife practise real good...cause you never know what might hit ya...no Pun here!

 

[white eagle]

In my eyes in an encounter or altercation we all have choices to make

Now if the individual who started the incident is unarmed (no weapon) I would respond to that accordingly however,if the same individual introduces a weapon I would switch my responce to those particular set of circumstances

Not to be skirting the issue I would respond with like force
An eye for an eye so to speak
If a person is going to try to hurt me or any of the ones dearest to me they will pay in accordence to their actions
D..........:ultracool

 

[loki09789]

The below posts were copied from the Kenponet. The topic is Attackers with Knives. As you can see, all of the people have the same mind set here as I was talking about.

If they all jumped off the Empire State building would you?

Is it the system that is failing or is it a willing ignorance of that system that is making those within that system that are failing it through lack of recognition?

Mike, your non crash bang awareness training example was still a crash bang because it was really a defensive tactics class you described. I was wondering if you had gotten the chance to take any read and react/awareness training like: Shoot no Shoot exercises as a CO, verbal judo communication awareness exercises, OODA loop instruction (observe, orient, decide, act).... that is more about seeing a situation before it get's stupid, reading it effectively and reacting appropriately and timely.

When the only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

 

[MJS]

Another thing to keep in mind here is this. How long do you really want to spend defending yourself against the attacker? I mean, we're not talking about a MMA event here, we're talking about a possible life/death situation. Even if hes just throwing a punch, do you really want to always be on the defense or do you want to take him out as quick as you possibly can? I know that I choose to take them out as quick as I can. If that lock/control isnt working, then you just might have to do a kick to the groin or the knee.

Mike

 

[MJS]

If they all jumped off the Empire State building would you?

:boing2: The point that I was making was, is there are others who feel the same way, especially when dealing with the said situation. I guess to answer your question, it looks like I'd be jumping too! :boing2:

Is it the system that is failing or is it a willing ignorance of that system that is making those within that system that are failing it through lack of recognition?

It appears to be the system that is failing. I could only assume that because it always seems like the 'good guy' is getting the short end of the stick.

Mike, your non crash bang awareness training example was still a crash bang because it was really a defensive tactics class you described. I was wondering if you had gotten the chance to take any read and react/awareness training like: Shoot no Shoot exercises as a CO, verbal judo communication awareness exercises, OODA loop instruction (observe, orient, decide, act).... that is more about seeing a situation before it get's stupid, reading it effectively and reacting appropriately and timely.

The training that I described I thought would be a good example due to the fact that they dont want you to fight with the inmates, but rather control them. Of course, talking to them, and using a verbal tech. over getting physical is always something that they stressed. However, when you're trying to tell someone who is in jail for murder and looking at life in prison, to stop doing something that violates the rules, 9 times out of 10, they are going to look at you and tell you to F*** Off!! Plain and simple. There was one incident where I actually had an inmate tell me that they wouldnt think twice about hitting me. They were looking at life in prison, so whats the worst that I could do to them? Take away their phone use for a week? Take away visitation for a week? Who cares. The point of this is that talking of course is a first choice, but its not always going to work. In addition, it doesnt take a rocket scientist for people to realize that they should be aware of their surroundings. A female walking to her car at night should be aware. Staying out of a bad section of town at night. And the list goes on.

Mike

 

[loki09789]

:boing2: The point that I was making was, is there are others who feel the same way, especially when dealing with the said situation. I guess to answer your question, it looks like I'd be jumping too! :boing2:

It appears to be the system that is failing. I could only assume that because it always seems like the 'good guy' is getting the short end of the stick.

In addition, it doesnt take a rocket scientist for people to realize that they should be aware of their surroundings. A female walking to her car at night should be aware. Staying out of a bad section of town at night. And the list goes on.

Mike

I will mail you all postcards if you get charged with manslaughter because you were only versed in one of the three arenas that i mentioned.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize it, but it does take a serious self defense instructor to focus on it in research and to actually train it in a class instead of giving it lip service. Assuming that people know how to be aware and tactical is not logical. It is a mental skill that needs as much training devotion as any other martial skill. I am sure that the martial heritage, civilian/monk based as well as military, stressed awareness to avoid survival that meditation and 'sensitivity' designed to focus the mind was beneficial for some reason.

Keep kicking and punching, it will work for sure.

But, like I said, when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

 

[Cryozombie]

I have to say, regardless...

Any legal "system" who would imprison or even prosecute someone for protecting him(her)self or their family is WRONG.

Knowlage of self defense should not be a "magic bullet" that allows a prosecuter to get another "win" under his/her belt to futher their career at the expense of someone who was minding their own buisness and just trying to stay alive.

That said, in answer to the question posed, somtimes an "honorable act" only allows an injustice to be done... I probably would not plant a weapon, but I would be prepared if neccessary to take other "dishonorable actions" if they were neccessary to prevent an injustice like that from happening.

 

[MJS]

I will mail you all postcards if you get charged with manslaughter because you were only versed in one of the three arenas that i mentioned.

That'll be good to know that I wont be forgotten once I'm in the big house!

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize it, but it does take a serious self defense instructor to focus on it in research and to actually train it in a class instead of giving it lip service. Assuming that people know how to be aware and tactical is not logical. It is a mental skill that needs as much training devotion as any other martial skill. I am sure that the martial heritage, civilian/monk based as well as military, stressed awareness to avoid survival that meditation and 'sensitivity' designed to focus the mind was beneficial for some reason.

Common sense!!! I guess that some people dont have it then. My wife, who doesnt have any MA training, is very aware of her surroundings when shes out alone, and I know that she never took a class on awareness.

Keep kicking and punching, it will work for sure.

But, like I said, when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Well, the tools that we have discussed, (being aware, talking your way out, trying to defuse the situation, walking away, etc.) can only be used to a certain extent. I mean, you can only use a hammer to tear down a house for so long, before you have to call in the wrecking ball!!!

One question for you. If you were to look at a martial artist such as Paul Vunak, what would you think about what he teaches, the way he teaches, the way he addresses SD situations??

Mike

 

[MJS]

I have to say, regardless...

Any legal "system" who would imprison or even prosecute someone for protecting him(her)self or their family is WRONG.

Knowlage of self defense should not be a "magic bullet" that allows a prosecuter to get another "win" under his/her belt to futher their career at the expense of someone who was minding their own buisness and just trying to stay alive.

That said, in answer to the question posed, somtimes an "honorable act" only allows an injustice to be done... I probably would not plant a weapon, but I would be prepared if neccessary to take other "dishonorable actions" if they were neccessary to prevent an injustice like that from happening.

Very good post sir! I can see that, by your post, we're thinking along similar lines. Hmm...where did I hear that line before??

Mike

 

[loki09789]

That'll be good to know that I wont be forgotten once I'm in the big house!



Common sense!!! I guess that some people dont have it then. My wife, who doesnt have any MA training, is very aware of her surroundings when shes out alone, and I know that she never took a class on awareness.



Well, the tools that we have discussed, (being aware, talking your way out, trying to defuse the situation, walking away, etc.) can only be used to a certain extent. I mean, you can only use a hammer to tear down a house for so long, before you have to call in the wrecking ball!!!

One question for you. If you were to look at a martial artist such as Paul Vunak, what would you think about what he teaches, the way he teaches, the way he addresses SD situations??

Mike

I honestly don't know much beyond his physical artistry which is suppose to be self defense focused. He seems good at what he does. Now, if he is claiming a 'complete' art because he trains people to use a variety of non ballistic, grappling and empty hand kicking and punching techniques, I would say that the term is misused based on my idea of 'complete' in relation to self defense.

I don't know much of his mental or 'other than physical' elements of his program. If you do, I would love to look at it.

 

[MJS]

I honestly don't know much beyond his physical artistry which is suppose to be self defense focused. He seems good at what he does. Now, if he is claiming a 'complete' art because he trains people to use a variety of non ballistic, grappling and empty hand kicking and punching techniques, I would say that the term is misused based on my idea of 'complete' in relation to self defense.

What is your idea of complete? Is it having the verbal skills in addition to the physical ones? As for my opinion, I feel that he is very complete. He addresses all areas of fighting, which is something offten overlooked in many arts. He also, from what I've seen of him, breaks down what a fight is going to be like. IMO, the majority of fights are going to be violent encounters, with the attacker trying to cause you some serious harm. That being said, wouldnt you think that the only way to deal with something like that would be to meet it with an equal force? Now, just going on what you only know of him, do you think that he addresses fighting in a proper fashion?

Another question. Taking one of the situations that we have addressed before. Walking to your car late at night, and you're approached by someone. You are with your wife and you have no idea if this guy is armed or not. He pulls out a knife and demands your money and car. What would you do in this situation? Is talking an option or is this situation past that point?

Mike

 

[Tgace]

I always take the "guy just defending himself winds up in prison" stories with a grain of salt. Few of the fights I have seen are "white hat vs. black hat". Yes some are, but many end up with the "good guy" going to far or letting ego/testosterone carry him away.

 

[CanuckMA]

Agreed. But, if what we're doing is not having an effect of the guy, then you pretty much have no choice to take it to the next level. For example, look at Aikido. A very defensive art, consisting of throws, locks, etc. Now, how long do you really want to stand there and re-direct this guy thats coming at you? 1 min? 5 min? If getting thrown to the ground over and over is not getting the point across, you're going to have to decide on something else to do. If faced with a weapon, you do your disarm. Ok...what did that do? All it did was get the weapon away from him, but hes still coming at you. Now what?? And if you look at every tech out there, if you stop and think about it, they are all deadly or dangerous to some extent.

Mike

The first question asked will be 'at which point could you have turned and gotten away?'. That is the point where self-defense becomes assault.

 

[MJS]

The first question asked will be 'at which point could you have turned and gotten away?'. That is the point where self-defense becomes assault.

Very true! So, going on what you have said, I'm taking it as you're always looking to be on the defense and very offense? Maybe I'm misreading here, so forgive me if thats the case. I realize that you will want to get away ASAP, but whats to say this guy doesnt get up and come after you? I know there are alot of 'what ifs' but IMO, I think its important to try to look at any situation that might occure.

Mike

 

[loki09789]

What is your idea of complete?
Mike

First question: I think I have said before what I consider a complete art. Not in any particular order:

*Awareness training (enhancing and specifying the sensory/mental focus of an individual because if it was common sense, it would be more common than it is.)

*Tactical/mental skills (Read a situation and react appropriately/OODA loop is only one example of a break down of the process - this is the ultimate in economy of motion for me because if I can see it coming early enough, I can diffuse it before I have to throw a single punch/kick)

*Tactical/physical skill (responding appropriately to a percieved threat based on your awareness/tactical/mental skills - this includes things as minimal as keeping my head up and looking around while walking and controlling my distance/position in small inoffensive but still effective ways to minimize the speed of a possible jump all the way to the appropriate level of force necessary to accomplish my CONSTANT goal/intent of stopping the threat and safe escape.)

*Social/legal knowledge (penal law, legal procedures, social services assistance for those who need it - couselling, advice, education, reporting protocals, verbal/interview skills, knowledge of court/sentencing process)

*Physical technique (this is the part where the punching and kicking comes into play along with other skills.)

If Paul Vunak addresses all of these areas, then he is complete in my mind, if he doesn't, then he isn't complete - but he seems to be very good at what he does teach.

Let me qualify all of this with the fact that I don't claim to be qualified (ooh I repeated myself, I hate that) to 'teach' all of these areas. BUT, I am qualified to be a model student to my students/peers (past, present and future) by inviting topic experts into my program and share knowledge with my people. I am qualified to point people to good research sources and information that is sound and will keep them out of jail.

My instructor/friend even invited in a local prosecuting attorney to train with us years back, he as worked with the instructors of Central Police Services (local name for Police Academy), and even consulted some Rape prevention/couselling services to better communicate/instruct those who come to the program after being assaulted. Of course his sociology degree and background in counseling help him alot and have benefited all of us as well. Almost all of that instruction was affirmed in my mind because it was in alignment with the use of force/deadly force stuff I learned as a Marine, and was similar in spirit to the procedural training I recieved as an MP later with the Army/Army National Guard.

Remember my three categories that you are being examined on in a given incident by the police:

1. what you did before the incident
2. what you did in the incident'
3. what you did after the incident.

And my breakdown of the three arenas that make up the "Battle field" of Self Defense (notice I don't like to say 'fighting' but use the term Self Defense as often as possible)

1. inside yourself (mental/physical skill, control, confidence...)
2. in the 'street' (you vs. the bad guy
3. the legal system (presenting yourself at all times as a reasonable person ONLY intending to response to a less than lethal/lethal attack with the appropriate level of force that will facilitate and end to the threat and open an escape route. NOTE: Notice how I never mentioned that I had to play nice or hold back - only clarified my CONSTANT goal/intent of threat difusion and escape.)

That answer your question?

 

[MJS]

That answer your question?

Yes. Thank you. :asian:

Mike