Hoko no kamae, legalities, and other considerations

[Tengu6]

There is a great story Ed Martin tells about Butch Johnson. Butchie was attacked in a tavern and he used Ed's Oji-Jutsu (old man technique) defense......hoko with the hands close to your head in a "cowering" position saying "please dont hurt me"! while proceeding to persuade the attacker to stop with strategic use of the elbows. When the police showed up they grabbed Butch because the other guy was in rather bad shape but all the witnesses said "no no no! it was the other guy doing the punching, Butch didnt even punch him......the guy attacking him just kinda, ran into him!

I think of Hoko as my "roll cage", I feel very safe in there. Nice and close to the attacker.

Mark Bush

 

[Don Roley]

Does anyone else besides me practice elbowing people straight on from hoko? I figure if the guy tries what most people do just before a fight and tries to get in my face, chest to chest, then just spearing forward and letting him impale himself may be the first thing to do when the blows start. Then I strike the target from there in a repeated attack.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

http://www.shivworks.com/PSP/PSP1.pdf

And to think that Noguchi sensei did pretty much just that to me the first time I met him...

 

[r erman]

And to think that Noguchi sensei did pretty much just that to me the first time I met him...

Southnarc posts a lot of neat ideas on selfdefenseforums.com. His Panuntukin defense in the above link can be even nastier if you angle the covering elbow out so they spear their attacking arm on the elbow.

Don, Hoko is also good position for spearing in to the neck with your forearm--like Blauer's 'spear method'--it's a nice brachial stun.

 

[KyleShort]

Does anyone else besides me practice elbowing people straight on from hoko? I figure if the guy tries what most people do just before a fight and tries to get in my face, chest to chest, then just spearing forward and letting him impale himself may be the first thing to do when the blows start. Then I strike the target from there in a repeated attack.

That is actually my most heavily practiced strategy/technique. I use sort of a blended Hoko / Tony Blauer spear followed with immediate elbows. Either their will impale themselves on my elbows, or I will drive over and through them with successive blows. At 6'3", if I am attacked it will likely come from a big guy and hoko + elbows seems like a good response.

But alass I have not been in a "fight" in 7 years and I have never had to use this, maybe it won't work at all

 

[Shinkengata]

We use hoko, or a varient of hoko, in situations of disarming a pistol-wielding attacker at point blank, because that's what they expect when they point a gun at you, they expect you to put your hands up and beg, when in actuality, you are getting them used to hand motion for the moment and splitting their attention by getting them to start talking.(Please!! Tell me what you want? You can have my wallet) I venture to say that you can't talk to someone and shoot at the same time, so that would buy enough time to shoot your hands in from hoko(they're already up anyway) for a disarm before their reflexes trigger(no pun intended) a reaction. I've read physician's reports that state that the time it takes for your brain to process information in order to tell your body to do something is the same amount of time it takes for your brain to tell your mouth to speak as soon as you see something. You know, like the old test of "say 'When' when you see it".

anyway... just my shiddy two pennies

 

[DWeidman]

I venture to say that you can't talk to someone and shoot at the same time, so that would buy enough time to shoot your hands in from hoko(they're already up anyway) for a disarm before their reflexes trigger(no pun intended) a reaction.

anyway... just my shiddy two pennies

Depends on their familiarity with a gun and shooting. I know guys who could sing opera and shoot the eraser off a pencil...

Of course - those guys wouldn't be holding you at gunpoint - you would already be dead...

Anyway - just my extra two cents....

-Daniel

 

[Don Roley]

We use hoko, or a varient of hoko, in situations of disarming a pistol-wielding attacker at point blank, because that's what they expect when they point a gun at you, they expect you to put your hands up and beg, when in actuality, you are getting them used to hand motion for the moment and splitting their attention by getting them to start talking.

I heard a rumor that the SEALS that do anti terror type stuff practice their pistol draws from the same stance for much the same reason. If they get caught cold they drop their rifles and raise their hands. For a brief second the other guy thinks they got them at their mercy. Then they go for it.

Only a rumor, but it is something to think about.

 

[Shogun]

I personally like Segan no Kamae. its so natural. actually, shizentai is natural but i still like it.

 

[Tenchijin2]

At the risk of being the 'bearer of obvious reality check'... I have to tell you all, that if you are justified in using force, which kamae you use and how you choose to conceal it is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT. If you are not justified in using force, no amount of duplicity is going to keep you out of trouble. Justfied force is justified force regardless of how strong or weak you appear. IF there is some doubt from witnesses as to who was the attacker/defender, and no weapons are involved, then likely you shouldn't have been using force.

For cryin' out loud, you've just announced to the whole world via this forum that you plan to dish out mayhem while feigning innocence. You think a prosecutor won't find this?

Real violence is messy, and no place for clever strategies of gimpishness. Odds are, any encounter that gives you the opportunity to adopt that sort of strategy is one you could have walked away from. Generally, of course.

One thing: if the guy wants to shoot you, talking to him won't help. If, on the other hand, he doesn't want to shoot you and you annoy him enough, he just might hostage negotiation (even if that hostage is yourself) is tricky.

aric

 

[Cryozombie]

if you are justified in using force, which kamae you use and how you choose to conceal it is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT. If you are not justified in using force, no amount of duplicity is going to keep you out of trouble.

The one thing i would disagree with here is that you could be completely justified, but not seen that way.

Look at this "fictional example"

Guy standing on the corner minding his own buisness, Badguy comes up and quietly says "Im gonna put a knife in your guts, you slimy dweeb" (obviously I am substituting harsh language for the sake of the forum)
Guy goes all mad ninja skills on the other guy to stop him from knifing him.

Bystanders see Guy go mad ninja on the badguy, but never see the badguy do anything. Sorry, yes, you were justified, but the 20 witnesses disagree...

Same situation, but guy goes all "OH MY DONT HURT ME PLEASE" and looks all scared and innocent as he lays mad ninja smackdown on the badguy, and 20 witnesses see a victim of a crime get lucky... You were jutified, AND the witnesses agree...

Well...

Just my take.

 

[Don Roley]

At the risk of being the 'bearer of obvious reality check'... I have to tell you all, that if you are justified in using force, which kamae you use and how you choose to conceal it is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT.

I have the word of several people in law enforcement and District Attorneys that appearance can make a heck of a lot of difference. If people first are aware of two people fighting, then both parties are probably going to be taken down to be booked in. But if they are first aware of someone backing off with their hands up while screaming "back off, I don't want any trouble" then the police are less likely to grab both if it leads to violence. Making sure that the witnesses see that the other guy is trying to force you into a fight and that you are backing away can also get a lot of people to stop their planned attack. Marc MacYoung said that he got a lot of good use out of screaming so that the entire room could hear that he knew the other guy was trying to hide a weapon.

For cryin' out loud, you've just announced to the whole world via this forum that you plan to dish out mayhem while feigning innocence.

Did we? I seemed to have missed it. We are talking about being able to DEFEND ourselves from a certain position. If the other guy goes away or lets us leave then we are fine with that. But if the other guy throws a punch, we want the entire room to be clear that we are trying to back away and do not intend to start violence.

 

[Tenchijin2]

<shrug>


Okay, suit yourself.

 

[Cryozombie]

Hey whats that comment that they use in marketing all the time?

"Perception becomes reality" or somthing similar?

I think that applies here as well.

 

[Shinkengata]

I love people whose mindset is "If ur in this kind of situation, you're screwed, nothing you are talking about doing will work,and there's nothing you can do.":shrug:

 

[Shizen Shigoku]

Shinkengata: ". . . and there's nothing you can do.":shrug:


Well, then do nothing.
(enter the void?)


- ooh, mad spooky ninja stuff.


Tenchijin2: "At the risk of being the 'bearer of obvious reality check'... I have to tell you all, that if you are justified in using force, which kamae you use and how you choose to conceal it is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT."

I agree with this so far as to say that if you are already in the interval where force is being used, then concealing overall intent with kamae is irrelevant to the legality of the situation; however, continued use of kyojitsu tenkan towards 'badguy' with kamae in-fight could be relevant to the survival issue.

I think before that interval, by all means (and for crying out-loud - only very quietly) use all the sneaky, hidden, concealed, mad spooky ninja stuff you want to stay out of trouble.

 

[Shizen Shigoku]

p.s.


Somewhat related discussion here.

 

[Bigshadow]

As a concept, I agree with that.

Use of a firearm is, in every state I know of, considered "deadly force". That has nothing to do with what your intentions are or what you're trying to do to the attacker; rather it's legally considered to be a level and type of force which can result in death (same applies to knives).

Agreed. Dale, does the state of California favor the "Castle Doctrine"? Here in Florida deadly force can be used against someone who has broken into your house (obviously only while the criminal is still in the house). In my opinion, someone "breaking" into my house is not coming in to visit and to have tea and crumpets.

 

[Bigshadow]

Not only can Hoko no Kamae appear to be harmless, it is also a great way to manipulate the Kukan. The arms can be used as a shield, to create openings or close them depending on the fluidity of the situation. It can also change the perception of the attackers, it can prevent them from rushing in or changing the shape of their attack at the last moment, thus messing with their head. It also can set the necessary distance between the yourself and the attacker. Also, it puts weapons closer to the attacker without setting off alarm bells in the attackers head (punching with the body).

Just a few things I can *think* of coming from Hoko no kamae. (I am thinking of Hoko no kamae in a moving live situation, not a static densho posture.)

As far as the legalities and actions, I agree whole heartedly with Dale.

 

[Bigshadow]

I have the word of several people in law enforcement and District Attorneys that appearance can make a heck of a lot of difference.

That is very true! I am having a hard time articulating this but things can be done subtly and not be dramatic. It can appear as if you are falling all over the attacker as if he punched you or grabbed you, but on the way you are crushing the attacker and breaking bones or whatever happens from the dynamics the whole way down while you are yelling "Leave me alone! you are hurting me! help!" But if you jump back into a posture that is inviting or challenging or challenge the attacker verbally. Someone will notice.

With all that said, I think that if you are subtle and *sneaky* about it, I think it would prevent over doing it to a great degree, you would have to do more to "kick them while they are down" and that would look out of place. I hope this makes sense. HAHA