hit and being hit

[marlon]

It came up in discussion with a black belt school owner that he cannot make contact with his students...even at brown belt for fear of loosing students. Can one teach others effective street martial arts without hitting them with some increasing degree of contact? Obviously, it is not a question at beginner levels and we are not talking about injuring someone. Do people still do body conditioning? Are black belt still expected to be able to defend against realistic attacks? Can they take a hit? Do they train regularly with contact...or is it "well we know we can hurtr each other so let's barely touch each other for the rest of our training? Is progressively increasing contact necessary?

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[sifu Adams]

I would say he is afriad of fighting or being hit because he should have control as a blackbelt and know when to pull his punches. How long has he been teaching. I would guess not long. Most black belts know when you spar lower rank there reaction is slow and sometimes wrong. It you throw a punch to the face and aim one inch away, sometimes they will turn into the punch and you end up 5 inch into them. thats not good for attracting new students. I say he is afriad to fight because where I come from you never back away from a sparing match because you have no control or because the other person has no control. To us a good balck belt should be able to control the fight. As for the hitting well I been hit and have hit. We don't go for blood but sometimes it happens.

 

[kenpohack]

My instructor won't hit white and yellow belts. However, once you reach orange belt, he'll progressively start to increase the level of contact till about Brown belt. At that point, you should be taking close to full power shots to targets like the stomach and ribs. Discretion must be used, however; obviously if someone is 120 lbs, they will never take the shots that a 250 pound man can.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

That's a tough one. I don't personally believe you can teach fighting without hitting but the guy may have other issues. There was a noted karate instructor in Holland (Dollman sp? I believe) who hit a guy with a heel palm strike (in a self defense situation not training) and nearly killed the guy so he stopped using that strike and stopped striking to the head for fear of a repeat. Not all people are equipped to take the emotional beating of hurting someone else. I personally hit my students and experiment to see how much is too much for each one. So one of my students may not be able to take a hit so I'll hit them light where as some of my other students (Dino you reading this?) insist that I hit them with some gusto on it so they know what it feels like and so they believe in what I teach. I have a feeling that the answer to this question is much deeper than it appears. Either that or it's the classic "I don't want to hit you, I'll hurt you" macho coverup of someone missing true hitting ability. But I prefer that the case be the previous statement about underlying issues if this person is an instructor. I can only hope.

 

[Thesemindz]

It came up in discussion with a black belt school owner that he cannot make contact with his students...even at brown belt for fear of loosing students. Can one teach others effective street martial arts without hitting them with some increasing degree of contact? Obviously, it is not a question at beginner levels and we are not talking about injuring someone. Do people still do body conditioning? Are black belt still expected to be able to defend against realistic attacks? Can they take a hit? Do they train regularly with contact...or is it "well we know we can hurtr each other so let's barely touch each other for the rest of our training? Is progressively increasing contact necessary?

Respectfully,
Marlon

At our school we begin desensitizing people to contact in their very first lesson. I find that one of the biggest challenges many students face, especially at the beginner level, is making physical contact with another adult, especially in a violent context. Look around, many adults go through their daily lives without touching other people. In fact, many go out of their way to avoid any kind of physical contact what so ever, except possibly with their loved ones, and beginners are often uncomfortable touching or being touched by another adult.

I find that several steps are helpful in desensitizing students to contact. First and foremost is professionalism. Make sure that everyone understands that all contact is done purely for the purpose of training. The best way to convey this message is to simply be professional in your dealings with your students. I have found that even when in compromising positions which could be misconstrued, even when working with children, if I am focused and professional and conveying honest useful information, everyone focuses on that and pays attention.

Secondly I have found that using focus shields with my students is a good way to help to get them used to feeling incoming force without frightening them unduly. Using the focus shield allows the student to feel differing degrees of force through an intermediary. This allows the student to adjust to force, and practice resisting the force, and see another student throwing blows at them, without actually hitting them, yet.

Thirdly we practice techniques on the body with increasing degrees of force. The students are taught to practice their techniques at touch and light contact, and contact is increased over time as the students move into more advanced classes. Beginner students are repeatedly reminded to use control and touch their targets. Intermediate students are taught to use heavier contact while still using control. This process continues in more advanced classes. At all levels students are practicing on shields, heavy bags, and other punching targets with heavier contact so that they can continue to develop power with their techniques.

Additionally I do regular drills in my classes where my students grab or push each other to work defenses against those attacks, both in the context of techniques and in spontaneous, motion based drilling. This helps to break down the barrier that the students have put up against contact. This process continues into all categories of attack with greater contact at more advanced levels.

One other drill that I like is designed to teach the student how to tense their body to resist force as well as to desensitize the students to contact. I have a student stand in a horse stance and another student moves around them lightly striking the body with punches, elbows, or open hand strikes. The key here is for the student to feel the force as they are very lightly struck and tense the muscles in that area to protect the internal organs.

These are just some of the basic steps involved. There are many other drills and training techniques which can be used, such as sparring and sensitivity drills, but the real key is to begin the process early. If the instructor waits until the brown or black belt level to hit someone, several problems arise.

1. The student has already adjusted to and accepted the degree of contact inherent in his training. To drastically increase that, especially after so much time, without ramping it up slowly, would certaintly intimidate the student.

2. Students who were naturally predisposed to heavier contact, or looking specifically for it in their self defense training have probably already left the school, leaving no one who can role model "sucking it up" and "taking the punishment" for the weaker students to emulate.

3. It seems hard to except that a student could learn effective self defense and acquire street applicable skills without engaging in some level of contact with a resisting opponent.

Especially at the beginning levels, it is important to pair up students with similar attributes, physically, mentally, emotionally, even experientially. Not every time, but more often than not. Certaintly it is important to pair up students of different sizes and strengths so that they can learn to effectively execute technique against a variety of bigger, stronger, or faster attackers, but that can be emphasized to a greater degree later in their training. If you put too much on a beginning student, you will lose a student, and then you can't help them at all.

The most important aspect in my opinion is to care about your students and be concious of their unique challenges, while also pushing them to reach outside their comfort zone. That is what a good coach does. You have to listen to the students and be concerned with helping them grow as martial artists. You know what they need to achieve, but you have to listen to your students to know what the best way to lead them to that goal is. All students learn and process information differently and being sensitive to each student's needs will help you to motivate them to improve.


-Rob

 

[Simon Curran]

Well here is my opinion, as a non-black belt,

I do not mind taking shots in training, and will take training partners to task if they don't make any contact on me (especially females because I am a big guy, and if they won't hit a big guy in training, what will they do on the street...)
On the other hand, however, since I am a big guy, I don't particularly like to beat up on my training partners too much (with the exception of a few, one of my training partners is over 300 lbs...)
I am of the opinion that the best conditioning for getting hit, is getting hit, and the chances of a person ever getting hit as hard on the street as they do in training, I would hope, are minimal, so why not get used to it in a controlled environment

 

[Thesemindz]

It came up in discussion with a black belt school owner that he cannot make contact with his students...even at brown belt for fear of loosing students. Can one teach others effective street martial arts without hitting them with some increasing degree of contact? Obviously, it is not a question at beginner levels and we are not talking about injuring someone. Do people still do body conditioning? Are black belt still expected to be able to defend against realistic attacks? Can they take a hit? Do they train regularly with contact...or is it "well we know we can hurtr each other so let's barely touch each other for the rest of our training? Is progressively increasing contact necessary?

Respectfully,
Marlon

One other point should be made here, and as it deals directly with the business side of the business, as opposed to the martial arts/teaching/transmision of skill and knowledge side I wanted to make it seperately.

I know of some schools, in a variety of arts, which choose not to teach contact as a specific, business driven decision, based on a belief that they will make more money selling dance lessons to an unknowing public than they will selling real martial training to dedicated practitioners of combat arts. If they are honest about what they are doing this is not inherently wrong, although I would not choose to participate in it. Unfortunately, these types of schools are often the first to declare that they have the techniques which will save your life, often making unrealistic claims as to the effectivness of their techniques, promising that study at their academy will make you unbeatable and give you the skill necessary to defend against five repeat felons armed with guns, knives, and bad intentions. The best that can be said in their defense under these circumstances is that it is entirely possible that they are ignorant of the misrepresentation of their practices to the public simply because they don't practice contact and so have no real frame of reference. Anyone who practices techniques against a resisting opponent understands that real combat is messy, dirty, and often involves everyone getting hurt, but hopefully the bad guy more so than the good guy. I have heard that several schools and even well known martial arts organizations have decided, at the "corporate level" that contact between students could lead to injury, which it occasionally does, and that injury could lead to lawsuits, which it occasionally does, and that that is an unacceptable risk. As a result contact between students is banned and from that point on students are treated like porcelain dolls with checking accounts from which the studio can draft it's electric bills and rent. Again, if the students are aware of what they are getting and it's relative place in the pantheon of martial arts instruction, and they choose to continue to participate in this type of training, I don't see any problem with how they spend their time and money. Unfortunately most students, especially at the beginner level, have no concept of their options in training facilities or how practice can vary from school to school, and simply accept whatever is done in house as, "the way things are done." This is ignorance at best, and dishonest business dealings which pervert and corrode at the heart of honor, discipline, and tradition upon which every formal system of combat has been founded, in every culture, at worst. To engage in this type of behavior, to the detriment of your students, knowingly and willingly, is something which I could not personally be a part of.


-Rob

 

[Thesemindz]

Well here is my opinion, as a non-black belt,

I do not mind taking shots in training, and will take training partners to task if they don't make any contact on me (especially females because I am a big guy, and if they won't hit a big guy in training, what will they do on the street...)
On the other hand, however, since I am a big guy, I don't particularly like to beat up on my training partners too much (with the exception of a few, one of my training partners is over 300 lbs...)
I am of the opinion that the best conditioning for getting hit, is getting hit, and the chances of a person ever getting hit as hard on the street as they do in training, I would hope, are minimal, so why not get used to it in a controlled environment

I am also bigger than many of my training partners and students, and since I've been training longer, can often, but not always, hit harder. I practice control when training so as not to hurt my friends, and because I learned early on that to do otherwise is to find yourself training alone in a hurry. I also agree with your point about women hitting men harder, or smaller people hitting bigger people harder in general, and your point about conditioning for getting hit by getting hit. The one place I'd disagree is with your assertion that hits on the street will be softer than hits in the dojo. Even when training at heavy contact and trying to overcome my equals or betters, even with my best friend when we are truly trying to win, and to give anything but your best would be a personal insult, I'm never really trying to hurt those people. I mean really hurt them. I mean hurt them in an intensely personal way which will do lasting damage to them and change the course of the rest of their life. Now, you may not intend to hit this way on the street, but you can rest assured that a violent, recidivist criminal will, and once he does, you probably will too. I know I've hit the heavy bag harder than I've ever hit a training partner, and not nearly as hard as I would hit someone who hurt my loved ones.

No, the heaviest dojo contact is still contrived, and carries with it all the weight of simulated, formal combat, as well as the burden of striking people you care about, even if only as warm bodies who show up twice a week to be struck upon. Real combat is something else, and you will rarely if ever see it occur within the walls of a karate studio.


-Rob

 

[Simon Curran]

I am also bigger than many of my training partners and students, and since I've been training longer, can often, but not always, hit harder. I practice control when training so as not to hurt my friends, and because I learned early on that to do otherwise is to find yourself training alone in a hurry. I also agree with your point about women hitting men harder, or smaller people hitting bigger people harder in general, and your point about conditioning for getting hit by getting hit. The one place I'd disagree is with your assertion that hits on the street will be softer than hits in the dojo. Even when training at heavy contact and trying to overcome my equals or betters, even with my best friend when we are truly trying to win, and to give anything but your best would be a personal insult, I'm never really trying to hurt those people. I mean really hurt them. I mean hurt them in an intensely personal way which will do lasting damage to them and change the course of the rest of their life. Now, you may not intend to hit this way on the street, but you can rest assured that a violent, recidivist criminal will, and once he does, you probably will too. I know I've hit the heavy bag harder than I've ever hit a training partner, and not nearly as hard as I would hit someone who hurt my loved ones.

No, the heaviest dojo contact is still contrived, and carries with it all the weight of simulated, formal combat, as well as the burden of striking people you care about, even if only as warm bodies who show up twice a week to be struck upon. Real combat is something else, and you will rarely if ever see it occur within the walls of a karate studio.


-Rob

Good points well made:asian:

And you may well be correct, but this is coming only from my personal experience, I have been rocked by shots in training but never (up to press, and hope it continues thus) been rocked by a punch in the street (I used to work in the liqour licensed trade...), but I agree that one should never say never.

 

[Doc]

It came up in discussion with a black belt school owner that he cannot make contact with his students...even at brown belt for fear of loosing students. Can one teach others effective street martial arts without hitting them with some increasing degree of contact? Obviously, it is not a question at beginner levels and we are not talking about injuring someone. Do people still do body conditioning? Are black belt still expected to be able to defend against realistic attacks? Can they take a hit? Do they train regularly with contact...or is it "well we know we can hurtr each other so let's barely touch each other for the rest of our training? Is progressively increasing contact necessary?

Respectfully,
Marlon

If you want to be a good swimmer, you have to get in the pool. If you get in the pool, you WILL get wet. Or you can stand on the sidelines nice and dry, and tell everyone what a great swimmer you are.

 

[Drac]

It came up in discussion with a black belt school owner that he cannot make contact with his students...even at brown belt for fear of loosing students. Can one teach others effective street martial arts without hitting them with some increasing degree of contact?

I don't believe so..As a white belt I was made to spar with Sensei and some of the senior students, they landed a few good ones but I never quit..I think contact is necessary..That way you won't be surprised and stunned if you take a hit on the streets..

 

[Simon Curran]

I don't believe so..As a white belt I was made to spar with Sensei and some of the senior students, they landed a few good ones but I never quit..I think contact is necessary..That way you won't be surprised and stunned if you take a hit on the streets..

Kind of the point I was trying to make, just more eloquently phrased, thanks.

 

[MJS]

It came up in discussion with a black belt school owner that he cannot make contact with his students...even at brown belt for fear of loosing students. Can one teach others effective street martial arts without hitting them with some increasing degree of contact? Obviously, it is not a question at beginner levels and we are not talking about injuring someone. Do people still do body conditioning? Are black belt still expected to be able to defend against realistic attacks? Can they take a hit? Do they train regularly with contact...or is it "well we know we can hurtr each other so let's barely touch each other for the rest of our training? Is progressively increasing contact necessary?

Respectfully,
Marlon

One thing that students need to realize when they first walk into the dojo, is that the arts are going to contain contact! People who have never trained before need to understand exactly what they're getting themselves into. If its something that they (the student) feel is not for them, then they should not join. In the beginning ranks, the contact should be limited. They're going to need to get used to blocking, striking, moving, etc. Once they start reaching the intermediate ranks, there should be some contact. Once they reach the advanced ranks, especially BB, there should be contact. Now, I'm certianly not saying start breaking bones, giving black eyes, etc. but contact needs to be made. Why give the student a false impression that what they're doing in the dojo is going to work when they really need to call upon those skills? If they're not used to contact, they will be in for quite a surprise. I realize in todays world, people sue at the drop of a hat, but come on. Again, this is why I stress the importance of making the new student aware of what they're getting into.

Mike

 

[Shotochem]

I too find it hard to believe that there are so many places that do not make contact. There are also many places that only make light contact from day one.

You need to be hit in order to know how it feels and to be able to take a hit if you are attacked for real. Anything else has the danger of presenting one with a false sense of security.

That can get you hurt.

In my new dojo, the first class I actually sparred. The contact was harder and more intense than we normally go in my other dojo. I'm not sure whether
it was a matter of "see how much tougher my art is than what you were taking" being the new guy. Or maybe they are just plain crazy. (I can't wait for my next class!!!)

This topic has got me thinking, is there such a thing as too much contact? What is the happy medium? We all have to go to work the day after. where is the line between effective and ineffective?

I'm not exactly going to the nearest bar to find out.

I'm a lover not a fighter. :supcool:

 

[Seabrook]

It came up in discussion with a black belt school owner that he cannot make contact with his students...even at brown belt for fear of loosing students.
Respectfully,
Marlon

Is money more important than producing top-notch students? If someone wants to leave because he/she doesn't like the contact used during techniques and/or sparring, then by all means, let him/her leave.

Learning how to hit an attacker is all fine and dandy, but learning how to take a hit is a crucial part of martial arts training as well. I know a Tracy Kenpo school in my hometown that does not do any sparring AT ALL. What's with that? Kenpo involves contact, and I'm willing to bet my bottom dollar that most of those students would freeze up if attacked on the street because they haven't learned how to respond to pressure. Doing choreographed techniques (in which you know what the attack will be before it occurs) just won't cut it.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[MJS]

This topic has got me thinking, is there such a thing as too much contact? What is the happy medium? We all have to go to work the day after. where is the line between effective and ineffective?

The contact IMO should be gradually introduced and gradually increased. To aid in the safety factor, I see nothing wrong with putting on a glove and throwing a punch towards the student. 2 things are going to happen: 1) He's gonna get hit or 2) he's gonna move. At least if there is contact made, there will be some cushion. This will also aid in giving the student that "real" feeling, by creating the proper midset of what they'll actually face outside the dojo. Same thing with a choke defense. I've had people, in training, choke me and it felt more like a shoulder massage than a choke. Constantly pulling the attack is doing more harm than good IMO.

I agree with you though, we all have to work the next day. Nothing wrong with picking up the pace, but imagine what people will start to think if we walk into work with black eyes, a broken nose, etc.

Mike

 

[Seabrook]

However, once you reach orange belt, he'll progressively start to increase the level of contact till about Brown belt. At that point, you should be taking close to full power shots to targets like the stomach and ribs.

I highly doubt that by brown belt (or any belt for that matter) one should be able to take "close to full power shots to the stomach and ribs". A "close to full power shot" to the ribs would likely break them, and a shot that hard to the stomach...well, just ask a physician.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Seabrook]

If you want to be a good swimmer, you have to get in the pool. If you get in the pool, you WILL get wet. Or you can stand on the sidelines nice and dry, and tell everyone what a great swimmer you are.

Doc,

I am going to print this off right now, and read it to my students at the next class. That is hilarious, but so darn true.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[jaybacca72]

actually jamie you would be suprised how hard of a shot to the midsection you can take. for example when i worked out in systema they teach that the pain comes from fear and once you realize this you can take an enormous amount of contact when learning how to distribute the impact through out your body,you have to see it in person to understand just like sub 4. vlad will actually have you put your hands behind your head and strike your mid section with a 60% blow with a bokken and we even trained with towing chains two feet in length i know we are a crazy bunch.
later
jay
ps don't knock till you try it hehe! artyon:

 

[MJS]

actually jamie you would be suprised how hard of a shot to the midsection you can take. for example when i worked out in systema they teach that the pain comes from fear and once you realize this you can take an enormous amount of contact when learning how to distribute the impact through out your body,you have to see it in person to understand just like sub 4. vlad will actually have you put your hands behind your head and strike your mid section with a 60% blow with a bokken and we even trained with towing chains two feet in length i know we are a crazy bunch.
later
jay
ps don't knock till you try it hehe! artyon:

Here is a thread related to what you're talking about. Looks interesting.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25245

Mike