hit and being hit

[dsp921]

If you want to be a good swimmer, you have to get in the pool. If you get in the pool, you WILL get wet. Or you can stand on the sidelines nice and dry, and tell everyone what a great swimmer you are.

Doc beat me to it, this is exactly the analogy I was going to make when I first saw the subject of this thread. I don't know how many times my first instructor said "You can't learn to swim without getting wet".
I feel there has to be contact made when training in martial arts. You need to feel what it's like to hit and be hit. Doing a technique in the air (which is pretty much the same as doing "at" an uke without contact) is nothing like actually making contact. Where I train, being an uke isn't just about throwing a punch or grabbing someone, it's also about getting used to being hit. Do we use full force? Of course not. But we do make enough contact to get an honest reaction from the uke, that way you can see how they really react and what openings actually get created. Much different then throwing kicks and punches to the air. Might as well be square dancing if you're not making some contact. The street is not the place to discover what it feels like to get hit or how techniques flow differently when making contact with body mass.
Just one guy's opinion....

 

[lonekimono10]

Hey mike i went to the site and looked at the video's(did you see them?)
well if you did please tell what you think of what they were doing.
or what anyone thinks of them?? without being rude or saying anything
bad i'm not jumping up and down.

 

[Kenpodoc]

Hey mike i went to the site and looked at the video's(did you see them?)
well if you did please tell what you think of what they were doing.
or what anyone thinks of them?? without being rude or saying anything
bad i'm not jumping up and down.

Systema tends to look contrived on video. It is effective and in my opinion a good adjunct to kenpo. I like the way they learn to take strikes, they start very light and slowly increase the speed and power. Both the striker and the recipient are learning during the exercises. This is also done in Kenpo but it is less directly addressed and as such many have missed the importance of training the Uke side of the techniques.

Part of training in the martial arts is getting hit. Otherwise it is just dance (or gymnastics). I respect dancers, thay can be great athletes but they are not martial artists.

respectfully,

Jeff
P.S. Lonekimono, the bold font you use is shouting in the land of computers. It makes your statements jarring and distracts from their content. I'm sure it's unintentional but in computer speak it comes off as grandstanding.

 

[MJS]

Hey mike i went to the site and looked at the video's(did you see them?)
well if you did please tell what you think of what they were doing.
or what anyone thinks of them?? without being rude or saying anything
bad i'm not jumping up and down.

Hi George!!

I'll start off by saying that aside from what I've seen and read online, I have not seen Systema live and in person. Its hard to get a 'feel' of something from a video. It reminds me of Aikido..very flowing, using the persons energy against them, etc. Very different of course from arts such as Kenpo and the FMA's such as Kali and Arnis. Their approach (Systema) is not one that I would choose to take, but if it works for someone, thats fine. IMO, there is something to be learned from all arts. If there is something that interests me and I can take it and add it to my tool bag, I'm getting that much better.

Just my .02

Mike

 

[hammer]

Hey mike i went to the site and looked at the video's(did you see them?)
well if you did please tell what you think of what they were doing.
or what anyone thinks of them?? without being rude or saying anything
bad i'm not jumping up and down.

Cool clip,
Here is another clip that may be of interest from the Yang Mian System, here in Australia.

Steel body,http://www.yangmian.com/SteelBody.asp Scroll down to the bottom of the page to veiw clips, Titled ...Brett's Steel body practice on Machine....... the other Clips on this site are worth a look specially the elbows/and students freestyling.



Every time I see them I think ouch!!

Cheers
Hammer

 

[lonekimono10]

thanks hammer, but that font is in herei just clicked on it, but if it is what you say it is than i won't use it anymore..
and mike i understand, when u get some time please call me.

 

[Brother John]

The way we train IS the way we react. If you never make contact, you'll never be able to deal with the eventuality OF contact. If you never make contact, you won't be very good at delivering force, never gain skill in accuracy....because if all you do is stop a strike short of making contact, then you'll get very very good.......at missing.

Your Brother
John

 

[lonekimono10]

Hey hammer i just went and watched the videos and i want to say this
it is easy to take a hit when you know its coming,(just like in the video)
but its another thing all together when you don't know when it's coming
i:e like a real street fight, now don't get me wrong , what he did is great for demo's and i know it shows that he could take a hit.

 

[IWishToLearn]

"to understand what a strike is , you must know how a strike feels"

Quoting Master Elmer here...had to cause I like that analogy almost as much as Doc's .

 

[hammer]

Hey hammer i just went and watched the videos and i want to say this
it is easy to take a hit when you know its coming,(just like in the video)
but its another thing all together when you don't know when it's coming
i:e like a real street fight, now don't get me wrong , what he did is great for demo's and i know it shows that he could take a hit.

I totally agree,

Mr Elmer,

Could you share with us, what training methods dose American Chinese kenpo. (Your organization) apply, to prepares its students for the same type situation,"to take a hit, when they don’t know its coming ?"

Cheers
Hammer

 

[lonekimono10]

Well i'll tell you, in my school what i do is when a new student walks in ,
(u know u talk to them and they join)
ok now what i do is show them FHS(front horse stance) and then the starblock, then (and this is with everyone) i talk about if they ever had a fight on the street? then after a little bit in one of the classes i go up to everyone of my students and ill push them so they go falling back(i have someone behind them) then i show them what it's like to get hit in the chest, face, head (open hand) after i do this they look at me and i say what are you going to do? the person out there don't care how you feel or anything else about you or your family or friends, if they want that gold chain you have on they will
take it, then after a while (after they learn the tecq we do line tecq,it works for me, and i'll tell you and this is just me talking about my school,my people will hit when they have to. but you have to remember all this is done with the kenpo training that i went though(alot by the book)
i could keep going, i hope this helps a little

 

[Thesemindz]

Good points well made:asian:

And you may well be correct, but this is coming only from my personal experience, I have been rocked by shots in training but never (up to press, and hope it continues thus) been rocked by a punch in the street (I used to work in the liqour licensed trade...), but I agree that one should never say never.

I would say that in the dojo students are more likely to use proper stances and rotational energy, whereas on the street under stress this is less likely to occur, and your opponent may not have knowledge of proper punching techinque, and that may make the difference. So I don't disagree with you, and my experiences often mirror your own, there just isn't the mental emotional component in the dojo that there is in the street, and that's all I was trying to convey.


-Rob

 

[DavidCC]

We used to ahve 3 schools, now we have 2. This idea of going light to avoid losing students was one of the reasons he could not keep students. I was told by the instructor that this was what he was doing, light contact and also minimal physical challenge/workout/sweating. My own wife quit because she did not think that it was worth her time to go that route, she would rather just go to the gym and work out.

So that and some other bad choices drove him out of business. Which was to bad I really liked the guy and I think he was a great artist. Just not such a good businessman. Was he a good teacher? Well, his school closed, and when I moved to one of our other locations I had a LOT of catching up to do. I was one of the top students at the closed school, and I sucked LOL!

So now the school I am at requires learning contact, at increasing degrees, starting on day one. The only exception is for the pee-wee classes of 4 and 5 yr olds. They only contact kick shields, not each other. We have no trouble retaining students.

If somebody is too timid to touch other people or be touched, isn't that the kind of thing that a good MA school should be helping them to overcome? Isn't that why they came?

-D

 

[lonekimono10]

thank you david i forgot i don't do that stuff with the pee-wees
i show them how to stick a finger in the eye(u can use finger set to help)

 

[Thesemindz]

If somebody is too timid to touch other people or be touched, isn't that the kind of thing that a good MA school should be helping them to overcome? Isn't that why they came?

-D

Bingo.


-Rob

 

[Simon Curran]

I would say that in the dojo students are more likely to use proper stances and rotational energy, whereas on the street under stress this is less likely to occur, and your opponent may not have knowledge of proper punching techinque, and that may make the difference. So I don't disagree with you, and my experiences often mirror your own, there just isn't the mental emotional component in the dojo that there is in the street, and that's all I was trying to convey.


-Rob

We agree, you just managed to articulate it better than me.:asian:

 

[Seabrook]

it is easy to take a hit when you know its coming,(just like in the video)
but its another thing all together when you don't know when it's coming

Exactly my point Mr. Elmer.....well put.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[jaybacca72]

the video only touches the surface of the topic,when we train at vlad's in toronto you do a mass attack scenario like a gang fight you will have two or three guys and about 20 attackers. as you go amongst the crowd you have to learn how to roll with the shots and you never see them coming you learn to transfer the energy by the feel you recieve at the point of contact.
like i said if you have never experienced it in person you truley will not understand what i am saying.
the video has only one piece of the pie.
later
jay

 

[lonekimono10]

the video only touches the surface of the topic,when we train at vlad's in toronto you do a mass attack scenario like a gang fight you will have two or three guys and about 20 attackers. as you go amongst the crowd you have to learn how to roll with the shots and you never see them coming you learn to transfer the energy by the feel you recieve at the point of contact.
like i said if you have never experienced it in person you truley will not understand what i am saying.
the video has only one piece of the pie.
later
jay

well jay frist let me say that if i ever get into something where 20 guys are beating me up than ,,well i got my butt beat, look don't take this the wrong way but there are alot of people in here (myself) that has been in the arts for a long time, so for you to say "if you have never experienced it in person" what do you mean by that?? if what you do works for you, than all the best,but (and this is me talking) i was not moved by your video's
and oh yes having been in alot of street fights i know what it's like to have things come at you fast, so sorry and have a nice day

 

[jaybacca72]

george i don't know what you are talking about you have never seen any footage of me i think you are referring to jay bugg from texas?
the topic here is being hit and i was relating a training concept that systema uses for this topic not a i know everything and you don't post. i have no idea where you got your perception about my post infact you never even really read what i was trying to convey.
much later
jay artyon: %-}