hi iam new

[glad2bhere]

Dear Chris:

I can send you a solid "amen" but you slipped a new one on me. What was that other seminar you mentioned. Master Wests' Internationale is a great experience, thats true. But whats this other one you mentioned? One should learn to spread the wealth when there is a high quality experience to be had, yes?

BTW: How were the seminars that GM Lim did out in your neck of the woods? He came to Chicago and a good time was had by all, but then he went East and disappeared......

BTW #2. Did you think you would bew able to make it to Hal Whalens' for the pre-test weekend May 1st and 2nd?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Chris from CT]

What was that other seminar you mentioned. Master Wests' Internationale is a great experience, thats true. But whats this other one you mentioned? One should learn to spread the wealth when there is a high quality experience to be had, yes?

Master Michael Campos is the head of the Zendokai organization in NY and runs a large Martial Arts seminar every summer in up-state NY at Colgate University. I think he's on his 22nd year running the event. It is very much like Master West's, its a great time with a few hundred martial artists getting together for a weekend to train. There multiple sessions going on at once so you always have a choice of which seminar you would like to take. The only difference is that it has a more Japanese flavor to it than Korean and everything is on campus. So many different styles and principles from many different martial arts including, Aikido, Ju-Jitsu, Pencak Silat, Escrima, Jeet Kune Do, Wing Chun, Taekwondo, Tai Chi, ZDK system, Shotokan, Goju, Muay Thai, Grappling, Boxing, etc.

For more info, Master Campos' website is...
http://www.superior.net/~zendokai/

BTW: How were the seminars that GM Lim did out in your neck of the woods? He came to Chicago and a good time was had by all, but then he went East and disappeared......

They were great! Unfortunately, I had to miss a couple including the Chicago one. It definitely got me pumped for our September trip to Korea. How did you enjoy the seminar?

BTW #2. Did you think you would bew able to make it to Hal Whalens' for the pre-test weekend May 1st and 2nd?

I'm really hating this year of school because I am missing so many great events.. (Master West's March International, a couple of GM Lim's Seminars, Hal's KHF Event, GM Jang seminar in FL, etc). I'm lucky I am making as many as I am. I say this all the time to myself that "It will all be worth it in the end." I'm graduating in the beginning of June and then I sit for the national exam at the end of June. It's going to be a hell of a month!

If anything should change I will be there.

Take care.

 

[Disco]

artyon:

Seriously, were basicly all on the same page here. How far do we go with dealing with, as Bruce puts it, the posers. Well there's not a whole heck of a lot that can be done, except informing people and asking questions where everybody is privy to the answer. Other than that, it's "Caveat Emptor" - Buyer beware. We'll use the latest mini-series for example. Phoney certificates were awarded or brought, whatever the case may be. For those that sought the easy way and purchased a piece of paper, tough!, you got what you paid for. Now for those that have earnestly trained and put forth maximum effort. On behalf of all the people that are on the other side of that coin, I apologize for the way you have been treated and hope that you were able to find a new place to continue your journey in the arts. Now the really sad part to all this is that the party in question was/is supposed to be a "legit" MA. The only saving grace out of all of this is the training people received (for those that really trained), should be - I hope - valid. Again, this is based on the presumption that the party was in fact legit at one time.

Now this is a sore spot, from my point of view, in relationship to the KHF. In my opinion, the KHF should retest all those people that were awarded phoney KHF ranking, AT NO COST!.... It would go a long, long, loooooong way into showing people that they stand behind the tenents of Hapkido and that they are an organization worthy of respect. As it stands right now, it looks like money is all their really interested in. No disrespect intended to individuals, this is directed at the organization as a whole. A perfect example of what I mean is the cost of the up coming June seminar. $300+ is a big nut for a lot of people. Now the KHF states that it is a high point event, for they are/wish to be the premier Hapkido organization in the world. Well, saying and doing are two different things. Retest those people and you will have my respect, but telling me and charging me for it, gets you nowhere in my book.

The bottom line to all this ranting is that organizations and the certifications coming from same are a fixture now. We cannot remove their positioning in todays world. The only thing that can be accomplished, is oversite of how they run and treat people. Our job, is to voice opinion and point out flaws, that can/should be corrected. If they are non-responsive, then walk away. For they are not worthy of your trust and membership. Yes, self validation is really all we honestly need. Can I walk the walk? But having the validation of peers only reinforces and expands the scope of our education and acceptance. As humans, acceptance is the rule. We are after all social beings.

Chris, good luck on your exam.................. :asian:

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Disco:

"......Now this is a sore spot, from my point of view, in relationship to the KHF. In my opinion, the KHF should retest all those people that were awarded phoney KHF ranking, AT NO COST!.... It would go a long, long, loooooong way into showing people that they stand behind the tenents of Hapkido and that they are an organization worthy of respect. As it stands right now, it looks like money is all their really interested in. No disrespect intended to individuals, this is directed at the organization as a whole. A perfect example of what I mean is the cost of the up coming June seminar. $300+ is a big nut for a lot of people. Now the KHF states that it is a high point event, for they are/wish to be the premier Hapkido organization in the world. Well, saying and doing are two different things. Retest those people and you will have my respect, but telling me and charging me for it, gets you nowhere in my book......"

It suddenly hit me as I was reading your post that we may not have addressed this earlier (or did we?). If not let me go on record as saying that if people paid for a fraudulent cert (and can prove it with a receipt of some sort--- maybe even the cert itself) I am in agreement that a retest for THAT rank is in order and should be conducted at no charge. I think where I got balled-up was in hearing that people were unhappy having to pay for a test at all. For me, paying for an experience is part of the cost of pursuing the art I have chosen--- end of discussion. However, I think that you are right that if a person can prove that they were defrauded then allowing for a re-test at no charge seems fair. I have heard tell, though, that people are coming along and saying they were defrauded of their (say) 3rd dan, when what they were certifying for was a first dan. Not kosher. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Disco]

Bruce, you bring up a valid point as to testing for the correct rank. I was addressing this for/toward the honest person who did train and test and was duped. But as I am writing this, I am thinking of your statement. To be perfectly fair to those affected, we must remember who did the teaching - testing. This opens up another venue for review. Did they really receive the proper training for the rank. This is in no way a reflection upon the person testing, for they were under instructorship and therefor trusted the party in question. I think the KHF has a duty to these people, beyond a piece of paper. Those that actually trained should be re-evaluated (pro-bono), to see if they were in fact properly instructed. It's all inhouse KHF curriculum so it should not be a problem. I hope the KHF reads these posts and takes into consideration the logic that is being addressed, on their behalf. From my own perspective, I am very apprehensive when asked to dole out a decent sum of money to people that do not have a great track record. They (KHF) needs to show people they are/have changed, not just offer lip service, that unto itself was a long time coming for what transpired.

Now to refocus back to the original question of the Kukkiwon certificate displayed on Mr. Lims site. Knowing that the parties participating all have ties back to the problem child, one can only wonder if the possibility of an additional bad certificate has possibly surfaced. I don't know this as a fact, but the difference in the certificate dictated my questioning. For all I know, my certificates may be bad, but I seriously doubt that. Just basing that on what I have seen from numerous other TKD/WTF peoples certificates, including my Korean Master instructor. I realize that Mr. Lim dosen't need Kukkiwon, he has Kwan ranking, but just verifying would clear the air, so to speak.

 

[glad2bhere]

Oooopppsss...

".....This opens up another venue for review. Did they really receive the proper training for the rank. This is in no way a reflection upon the person testing, for they were under instructorship and therefor trusted the party in question. I think the KHF has a duty to these people, beyond a piece of paper. Those that actually trained should be re-evaluated (pro-bono), to see if they were in fact properly instructed......."

You lost me. I thought that the testing WAS a way of validating both the persons' ability to learn and retain and the teachers' ability to instruct and communicate. Are you teasing these two things into separate categories? The test against a standardized criteria would certainly test the students abilities to remember and execute techniques. I'm working to understand how one can go back one step and hold the teacher accountable. To me it would sound as if you automatically hold the teacher and his curriculum responsible if the student doesn't pass. Or am I missing something? I absolutely believe a teacher should be held accountable, I just don't know if you can do that with the students' test. Thoughts?

BTW: Did you make the statement that Lim doesn't need the Kukiwon because he has "kwan ranking"? But if the kwan is one that he started for himself isn't that equivalent of the fox making up policy for the chickens? To whom would he be accountable in representing his kwan as a HKD/TKD/TSD if his kwan is one of his own construction?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Disco]

You lost me. I thought that the testing WAS a way of validating both the persons' ability to learn and retain and the teachers' ability to instruct and communicate

Yes, you are right in your statement on testing. I was referring to the certain party that issued the bogus certificates. Perhaps the training that was being provided was also not on the up and up. If his standards for honesty are low then everything associated with him is suspect. The persons affected by all this need to be evaluated honestly as to where they actually stand in relation to KHF rank requirements.

As for Mr. Lims Kwan ranking. If in fact it is his Kwan, then yes your assessment is correct. I was under the impression that he is the inheritor of that Kwan and not the founder.

 

[Kodanjaclay]

Master Lim is certified by ChungDoKwan. He does not have his own Kwan in TKD. He trained with Park, Hae Man, who trained with either Master Uhm or Master Lee, Won Kuk.

As i stated earlier, in his country martial arts is regulated. You cannot hold yourself out to have a rank which cannot be validated by the government. I don't know how serious a crime it is, but in a country where one joint will get you the death penalty, nothing surprises me.

 

[glad2bhere]

Disco:

"......Perhaps the training that was being provided was also not on the up and up. If his standards for honesty are low then everything associated with him is suspect....."

But then, how would this be accomplished? If the turkey was accomodating then maybe it would be a matter of submitting his curriculum for review preparatory to any of the students applying for testing. Of course there is nothing to say that he actually TAUGHT the curriculum and I wouldn't lay-off bets on his cooperation either. The fact is that what we are dealing with is a very simple act of short-circuiting a process. People who want to exploit the Hapkido process for money do so because selling the image of having participated in the long and difficult process of Hapkido growth has a better profit magin than maintaining the process itself. I will also say (once again) that I don't think that the students are complete victims, Somewhere along the line they realized that they were getting something they had not worked for. When someone offers rank or standing albeit for relatively high premiums and with relatively moderate requirements I cannot believe that bells and whistles don't go off in someones' head. NOW we are suppose to figure out a way to legitimize this because somebody was a "victim". I can see working with students who want to re-do what they have done but I don't see how we can legitimize the perp/teacher or his business venture. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[glad2bhere]

".......Sorry, I cannot address this question for you. I am not involved with Kukkiwon Taekwondo. I can say this... in Malaysia, martial arts are government regulated. if something is not right, there are serious issues....."

I don't think this follows.

If I call GM Lim he will tell me that everything is on the up&up.

If I were to call the Malaysian government they would probably tell me that they saw the cert and everything is fine with them. Its not like they are authorities on the authenticity of certs, or that they call to Korean to validate a vitae.

If the cert is a kukkiwon cert then certainly someone ought to be able to confirm the authenticity of the cert. Can't believe that this is THAT involved.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Disco]

Bruce, on the contrary. It would not legitimize, it would only expand the overall picture of the person responsible for the problem. Your point on bells and whistles for moderate requirements is noted and most likely on the money. As for the buyers of rank, then they got what they paid for. I am addressing this mainly for the people that thought they achieved 1st or 2nd Dan. Now I am assuming that the KHF curriculum, which was applicable at the time all of this transpired, was not adheared to. Only physically showing an exam board of peers could validate their position. But for argument sake, lets say that the training was above board and followed procedures. Either way, these people need to be recertified to honestly justify their rank. I submit, that if the person is willing to stand and be counted, then they should be afforded the opportunity to do so - at no charge. Now should nobody come forward to avail themselves of the opportunity, then that says everything that needs to be said. The KHF may not agree, but I feel they owe that to these people and it would clarify a lot things with very little effort on their part.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Disco:

OK, I think I am back on track again. Then you ARE focusing the needs of the student, then and NOT the perp/teacher, right? Thats what I thought we were focusing on. To my way of thinking, if the perp/teacher has gone around the bend and is issuing fradulant certs he is pretty much a lost cause. Seems we were focused in the right place to begin with--- the student. Here are a couple of thoughts.

1.) Given that the curriculum approximates Hapkido standards of one sort or another (KHF, HRD, KSW, SM etc.) it should be a simple matter of re-testing at no charge and re-certifying the individual.

2.) Where the curriculum is a significant departure (Joe's School of Hapkido and Hair Restoration) I would think that the first get-together would be a fee-free assessment of the persons' ability and their published curriculum, with a diagnostic supplied that would get the person into compliance with the organization. Then the choice is whether they would want to take time out and get themselves up to speed. Their test/retest would be at a reduced rate.

As I am writing this I am thinking of the students I get from other Hapkido schools in the area. Most don't stay when it turns out that I don't just automatically test them for their next belt when they show up. In fact I have a gueppie who is interested in testing for his BB and is willing to submitt to my curriculum in order to hit all the bases. In his case I will be testing him for each guep rank (6 through 1) at no charge and am waiving the mat time since he has already met the requirements of his previous school. He'll be picking up Yon Mu Kwan material as fast as he wants to master it (and he also comes to my sword class as well). When it comes time for testing for his BB he will pay the testing fee and that will be that. I suppose some would say that compromising my standards but I still feel he is testing albeit without cert and being appropriately prepared for getting a legit YMK Hapkido BB. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Adrian0903]

In regard to KKW certification all dan above 4th are now gold/yellow paper, below are white background. So, Julian Lims KKW certs are original, if any one needs to check, just email/write or telephone the KKW stating the issue number.

In regard to Gm Park Hae Man he is Gm Umh Woon Kyu student although he always visited Gm Lee Won Kuk when in Virginia.

Adrian St.Cyrien

 

[Disco]

(Joe's School of Hapkido and Hair Restoration) OK, what's wrong with that. It servers a two fold purpose. Kick Butt and LOOK GOOD doing it..... :idunno:

I don't think your "compromising your standards" in the least. It's your (Yon Mu Kwan) curriculum and if the student can adhear to it, reguardless of time factor, then nothing is being subverted. I personally don't hold students back if they know the material and can function correctly. They will in time hit their personal wall and the time equation will rectify itself.

My whole content of our discussion is directed at/for the benefit of the student. As you stated, the instructor went around the bend, so yes he is a lost cause from my perspective. But the honest, trusting student should not be punished for something he/she did not do.

Everything else you addressed, I agree with.

 

[Kodanjaclay]

First of all,

Grandmaster does not exist in Korea. Master Lim goes by Master Lim. Second of all, Malaysia DOES verify the authenticity of the cert. This is how he found out that there were issues in regards to docs obtained from a certain marsupial, who incidentally denied any wrong doing there too.