hi iam new

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

Hey Fawkesburning, whenever someone opens a comment with "I'm an Oh Dan" just ignore the rest - who cares what rank you are Clay! This guy has put four posts here, all with the best intent and you want to pull your rank crap...

Frankly, there are lots of very old Sung Moo Kwan people in North America that predate Mr. Clay's lineage - they are just not all on "Google" which all of you know is the home all all great martial research - but hey since your teacher is the keeper of Sung Moo Kwan he should know them all right?

Fawkesburning, you keep questioning and exploring - right or wrong, there is no mega-protocal here - and the self important schmucks who think there is should simply be laughed at - ask, question and learn, these rank pullers all have stuff to hide somewhere...

Kevin Sogor

 

[fawkesburning]

The funny part is that I was trying to be helpful by pointing out that there are people connected to the Kwan here in the US. Hwang and Kim both studied under JI. They both have 9th dans from Ji. They have aligned their 2 organizations. So... your master Lim's master Hwang has a representative in the United States in Kim Jin Pal.

And Frank, the SinMoo Guys are connected because that is Ji's Kwan. Same teaching new name.

 

[Kodanjaclay]

Actually, Master Ji says that Sung Moo Kwan is different. That is what he reportedly told some Sin Moo guys. It was my understanding that he indicated that Sin Moo is "more advanced". I cannot speak to that because I did not hear it.

Hwang Duk Kyu passed reign of the SMK over to Master Julian Lim, who has the appropriate paperwork. Irrespective of who Master Hwang's representative may be, I answer only to Master Lim. He is recognized by Hwang Duk Kyu, the Korea Hapkido Federation and the Kido Hae (Korea Kido) as the Kwanjangnim of Sung Moo Kwan. You can view the certificates at www.jlim.net in the galleries.

All I indicated is that when I searched for it, I found only one school using the keyword Sung Moo Kwan.

 

[fawkesburning]

Look Frank I don't care who you are buying your next rank from. I just thought that you would perhaps like to work out with a master where you actually live.

<<I answer only to Master Lim.>> What are we in some cheesy Kung Fu movie?!

 

[Kodanjaclay]

Ok first off, I didn't insult you, or your organization. Don't insult me. I didn't buy my rank from anyone. I was evaluated two weeks ago for six hours.

If you want to actually talk about SMK, great. But don't start making personal attacks. I am not, nor will I tolerate it. I have spent 25 years working on getting to this point.

As far as Master Lim goes, you are correct, I answer only to Master Lim, in orther words, I am not a member of any other organization and don't answer to them.

As far as training with another Master, that was not offered. I was not invited. I am planning on training with some Sin Moo guys later in the year, because I was invited by them to attend. I know you are not aware of my personal situation, but I wont be able to attend any events until later in the year, thanks to a rapidly approaching due date. I am missing the first American KHF instructor's course because of it. I am hoping to attend some events later in the year though. If your organization has some public events later in the year, then perhaps I will be able to attend. I'm always up for good training.

 

[Kodanjaclay]

Kevin,

I think you misinterpreted what I was saying. I am not pulling rank. I am identifying that I have a level of proficiency and that I am happy to be in a small Kwan. To me, being in a small kwan means that rank is not easy to attain, or it would be larger. Does that logic not make sense?

Irrespective of lineage, all SMK people are related, just as we are related to our Sin Moo cousins. Argueably, we are cousins to all modern schools of Hapkido, as some say they derive from SMK. I am not willing to take that step.

I am well aware that I am a junior to some, and a senior to others. To some I am an excellent Hapkido player, and to others merely adequate. There are those that I would like to be proficient enough to be able to walk in their shadow. There is no shame in being at any stage of the path. The important thing is that we are on the path.

 

[fawkesburning]

First I'm not a member of either organization. So I'm not trying to insult any organization. You - I'm starting to think are a real jack ***. I was just trying to be freindly with the original post. Hwang's KHA was active under that name until 2002 or 3. Lim was a part of that Org. There are people from that org in the US. That's all I was saying. But you apparently just like to hear yourself talk. If you are the Frank Clay that was associated with Hackworth then yes IMO you bought your way into hapkido. You suspect that its true (won't fully admit it to yourself) that's why you are so defensive. You were a Tang Soo Do instructor got caught up with Hackworth, He offered you rank, you took it and then he burned you. LAY IT OUT FRANK - admission is the first step to recovery. If Master Lim is willing to justify your rank so be it. Clean slate. Its ok we all make mistakes. But why you have to go to Malaysia to find someone to train under is beyond me. There are plenty of excellent Masters in the US.

 

[glad2bhere]

Before this turns ugly, can I slip a quick question in here?

Is the Kwan (Sung Mu) that is being discussed the same Sung Mu Kwan Hapkido started by Ji in 1957 in Seoul or are we talking about a tradition that co-incidentally has the same name? My understanding was that with the coup in 1961 and Ji's fall from grace the original Sung Mu Kwan was disbanded. Since we are not using Korean or Chinese characters I must rely on the English tranliteration and am getting a little confused. Julian Lim apparently has identified his approach as Song Mu Kwan Hapkido but I don't know what the lineage is nor what the relationship with the Hapkido tradition. Unless you guys are going to publish scorecards so the rest of us can keep the players straight, a little help would be appreciated. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Cthulhu]

Moderator Warning.

Keep the conversation polite and respectful.

Cthulhu
-MT Admin.-

 

[Disco]

Question, primarily for Mr. Clay, but anyone with knowledge of Kukkiwon certification. I reviewed the site of Master Lim and looked at all the certificates he presented. The only certificate I was familiar with was the TKD Kukkiwon. Now I ask this question under the format that perhaps certificates awarded abroad (not in the U.S.) are different from those awarded here. Master Lims Kukkiwon certificate is totally different from any that I have received and those of my GrandMaster (who is Korean). Can anyone address this question? Thank you in advance for any information.

:asian:

 

[glad2bhere]

I thought this whole Kukkiwon cert issue was something akin to the recent split between the World Kido Assn and the Kidohae. By this I mean that a quick shift in politics caused an abrupt shift in who would stand behind what paper and who wouldn't. No wonder most of the people who practice KMA in Korea are kids. What adults would put up with the constant twists and turns as personalities jockey for power, influence and recognition?!? I mean we have enough of that right here in the States. Just look at all the recent stuff about "kwan" recognition! FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Disco]

I wouldn't know why the World Kido Assn or the Kidohae would have anything to do with Kukkiwon certifications. I was under the assumption that the Kukkiwon was the sole authority for WTF certifications.

 

[glad2bhere]

Oooopppsss---

Sorry. I was afraid that wouldn't come out very well. What I meant was that I had come to understand that people thought that the policies of the Kukkiwon were pretty much set in concrete and what I think I am hearing is that there is variance in policy depending on time and the personalities involved. I mentioned the WKA/Kidohae only because they were a clear example of what happens when this occurs. Sorry for the confusion.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Disco]

I was also under the understanding that Kukkiwon policy was very strict. But what has transpired in just the last few months, within the KMA's in general, gives one reason to pause and ponder.

It would be very helpful if Kukkiwon knowledgeable people would comment on the certificate displayed on Mr. Lims site. As I stated prior, I have never seen a certificate from the Kukkiwon that looks like that. Just wondering if they issue different certs for different countries. I don't think they do, but verification from other's would be appropriate.

 

[Kodanjaclay]

Disco,

Sorry, I cannot address this question for you. I am not involved with Kukkiwon Taekwondo. I can say this... in Malaysia, martial arts are government regulated. if something is not right, there are serious issues.

I have found Master Lim to be very open when asked questions. Of course treat him in the manner that you would want to be treated (respectful). His contact information can be found at www.jlim.net.

I wish I could help more, but I cannot.

 

[Chris from CT]

…By this I mean that a quick shift in politics caused an abrupt shift in who would stand behind what paper and who wouldn't. No wonder most of the people who practice KMA in Korea are kids. What adults would put up with the constant twists and turns as personalities jockey for power, influence and recognition?!?

This is the stuff I get fed up about and I am sure many others do also. Whatever happened to having "what you know or can do" being the most important thing. Some one says a certificate is no good and people get all freaked out. So what?! Can the person perform to the level of what they say their rank is? That says volumes more about a person than some piece of expensive wallpaper hanging for people to go "oooo and ahhh" over. If you can’t “walk the walk,” then all there is, is just a joke hanging on the wall for people to see.

I can understand how having certification can be a necessary part of the martial arts. In some countries you need to have government-recognized certification in order teach law enforcement or military personnel, etc. But we do not have any government regulation nor does any organization govern over the entire martial art that I practice, so in my opinion certificates are worthless here. (Not to mention that here in the US, many adults and children are just given rank without the ability or knowledge)

At my dojang I tell my students the certificate I give them means nothing outside of these walls. I tell them straight out, what matters is what they have learned and what they can realistically do. Bottom line.

All I’m saying is that, if you find merit in what you are learning then that is what’s important. Personalities come and go from our lives but the knowledge that we take stays with us and makes us who we are.

Good night. :hammer:

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Chris:

In the final analysis I know you are right. Taken a step farther I could also say that I don't need to care what people do or what they say about themselves. Then I think back and I wonder how different things would have been had people pulled together a bit better regarding that con-artist in Florida, ya' know? Maybe some perspective is in order, I don't know.

1.) OK, so the certs aren't what counts, and lets say that you are right that it is what a person does that really matters. Fine, I can buy that. Now when exactly is it that people are ever caused to show what it is that they can do? Absent such a demonstration of actual skill a person could represent themselves as anything at all, yes? And the consuming public doesn't know any better, right? I mean lets face it. A lot of the people who were taken in GOT taken in because they KNEW they were dealing with a charlatan who wouldn't ask too many questions---for a fee. Now what about the people who never had that chance?

2.) And what do we owe our art? Its certainly not up to me to single-handedly safeguard the KMA, is it? Or DO I owe my art SOME responsibility that impedes entrepeneurs from misrepresenting Korean traditions? I know I CAN sit by quietly and say its none of my business what goes on outside of my school, but SHOULD I? May I sit quietly while folks play fast and loose with language, terminology, offices, rank and institutions?

3.) Had people spoken-up prior to many of the recent problems, would things have still gone the way they did? Nobody wanted to say anything about Choi and the ITF (they still don't) nor the recent financial embarrassments, nor the Olympic matters, and noone can pretend they didn't know it was going on. Everybody was oh-so-loyal to the leadership, but what did people owe the arts they represented?

You are absolutely right, Chris. I could give a happy G-D about the paper and the ranks and the standings. What concerns me are the fractured values that allow people to represent themselves as they do and see nothing wrong with it. In a lifestyle that champions the cause of accountability, courage, integrity and accepting life on Lifes' terms, these people are cheap embarrassments at best; prostitutes at worst. Now who do we see about that?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Disco]

I understand your feelings and to a degree, you are correct with your assessment. However, even though this country (USA), does not have governmental oversite (thank goodness), we are still indoctrinated with the proof of experience mandate. Go back to when you first started in the arts. You were introduced to a school/instructor and being brand-spanking-new, you either knew someone already training and took their word that the school/instructor was competent or you accepted at face value, the certificate hanging on the wall that stated that the person named had obtained a level of knowledge and was proficient at same. As a new addition into the arts, the average person would not know if the instuctor can "walk the walk", until they had received some training and became aware of what was correct and what was BS. By that time, one would have wasted time and money. That piece of paper serves as a portal in aiding judgement. Is it foolproof?...... we have seen that it's not. Even in the professional world (i.e. Medicine, Law, Engineering), there have been people that have circumvented the proper educational forums and granted themselves paper. But, the necessity of having that "real" piece of paper is still an important foundation to credibility. Like it or not, it is and will be a necessary adjunct for approval and acceptance by the general public and peers. People in todays society are/have been educated/assisted to a degree, on what to look for. Again, is it totally reliable?...... we know it's not, but it does assist in attempting to make an educated assessment on acceptance or rejection.

As for your certificate has no meaning outside of your dojang walls, I dis-agree. A good school with good instructor(s) then that piece of paper has far reaching meaning. It validates the person, school, instructor and discipline. That piece of paper signifies that the named person, can "walk the walk" and people wanting to learn can trust it's authorization. Otherwise, why even give certificates? From day one, the arts have always had some form of acknowledgement, on paper, to authorize the continuation and or expansion of a specific discipline or permission to start a new venue of learning. Seeing as "dojo busting" is no longer fashionable or practical, having a valid document is the only other recourse available.

 

[glad2bhere]

You're right. At one time in our history MA teachers would simply show up at another school and challenge that new guy to a showdown. Certs have certainly been a step forward in that. However, that does not necessarily speak to the sentiments of my post. Please let me word this another way.

Just like there are people who will present paper, worthless paper, that they bought, there are people who want to follow these folks and accrue worthless paper for themselves. In this way you have two MA cultures. You have people who want to train and want to learn and want to do and you have people who want to posture, want to dress-up and want to exploit an image. The question of my previous post is, essentially, to what degree might the do-ers want to intersect with or relate to the posers? Do-ers hope the posers will do things the right way, work the process and come by their credentials honestly, but when the posers don't there is really not a helluva lot the do-ers can do about it. The posers are not going to get out on the mat and demonstrate what they DON'T know. Its not illegal to buy standing in an organization as a substitute for real experience. Posers and wannabees will always talk, evade and posture. Futhermore they will accrue to themselves like-minded practitioners who want cheap validation for as little real effort as possible. The produce of these groups of wannabees are organizations and arts touted as "just as good as" the real thing-- except it is not the real thing. It is an imitation and there is little advocates for the real thing can do if people want to make and sell imitation MA. So I state my question again. To what degree do practitioners of actual MA want to relate to the imitators? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Chris from CT]

Bruce and Disco bring up good points about how people can say they are anything they want and then falsely lead people into being taken advantage of. To be totally honest, I would chalk it up to life experience. Has everything been perfect for everyone? No, of course not so why is this any different. People make bad decisions sometimes. We all do it and then we learn from them. That is just part of life.

One way we stop that from constantly happening in our lives is to know about (insert topic here) before we begin to be involved with it. This goes for anything in our lives such as business opportunities, relationships, martial arts, etc. Even after that we can get shafted, but what we do from there is up to that individual. We can whine about it or learn from it. Once again, chalk it up to life experience.

Just a side note…
One of the things that people will do if they are insecure with their abilities that their paper says is to keep their students secluded from other schools and stylists. That is why it is great to see and attend high quality events like Master West’s “Hapkido International Seminar” and Master Campo’s “Super Summer Seminars.” These seminars have tons of stylists from all different walks of life sharing what they have on the mat. For the wallpaper grandmasters there is too much to loose by showing how little they really know. I believe that is one of the main reasons why you won’t see many misrepresent-ers at those seminars.

Take care :asian: