helping with the "kali" issue
- Thread starter thekuntawman
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Sun_Helmet
Orange Belt
Magellan had an equal amount or more with him. However, Pigafetta and many others choose to omit the rival tribe of Filipino warriors awaiting in the water on their boats. It's an easy omission to explain how Magellan got trounced.
Magellan made a grievious tactical error.
Lapu Lapu made all the correct moves.
If we reread Pigafetta's accounts you will note more details about Lapu Lapu's formations and the manner of evasion.
Here's something else many seem to discount:
Some of Magellan's men made it back to the boats.
How could this be?
There's some explanations like from the HACA site of how great swordsmen Magellan's men were and that is how they got away, etc. That is a total myth since Magellan did not even get his sword deployed. There's more than enough details that Magellan's crew used projectiles, arquebuses and lances ... **NOT** swords.
We also seem to forget that the Spanish troops were lightly armoured against natives who grew up on these beaches. Natives who Pigafetta said moved very quickly. The natives with very light clothing could have closed and run the Spanish down easily.
I'm looking at all this tactically and Lapu Lapu must have made a great call to halt his warriors from following.
Why?
Because the REAL threat were the 1000 or so rival warriors out on the boats watching and waiting for Lapu Lapu's men to wade out to sea; trying to finish off the Spaniards.
Also note that some of Magellan's men were sent to torch their village during the skirmish.
This would leave Lapu Lapu's men easily surrounded or separated. Ultimately having no place to retreat if their village went up in flames. No stronghold. Even the cannon fire would soon reach them if they followed out to sea.
So there was much more going on than just Magellan and his men.
Pigafetta who saw Magellan as his "light and mirror" would of course downplay the threat of the rival tribe.
In the end - it proved to be their undoing.
--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali
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Magellan made a grievious tactical error.
Lapu Lapu made all the correct moves.
If we reread Pigafetta's accounts you will note more details about Lapu Lapu's formations and the manner of evasion.
Here's something else many seem to discount:
Some of Magellan's men made it back to the boats.
How could this be?
There's some explanations like from the HACA site of how great swordsmen Magellan's men were and that is how they got away, etc. That is a total myth since Magellan did not even get his sword deployed. There's more than enough details that Magellan's crew used projectiles, arquebuses and lances ... **NOT** swords.
We also seem to forget that the Spanish troops were lightly armoured against natives who grew up on these beaches. Natives who Pigafetta said moved very quickly. The natives with very light clothing could have closed and run the Spanish down easily.
I'm looking at all this tactically and Lapu Lapu must have made a great call to halt his warriors from following.
Why?
Because the REAL threat were the 1000 or so rival warriors out on the boats watching and waiting for Lapu Lapu's men to wade out to sea; trying to finish off the Spaniards.
Also note that some of Magellan's men were sent to torch their village during the skirmish.
This would leave Lapu Lapu's men easily surrounded or separated. Ultimately having no place to retreat if their village went up in flames. No stronghold. Even the cannon fire would soon reach them if they followed out to sea.
So there was much more going on than just Magellan and his men.
Pigafetta who saw Magellan as his "light and mirror" would of course downplay the threat of the rival tribe.
In the end - it proved to be their undoing.
--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali
----------------
---------------
-------------
---------------
The 14th Style
Orange Belt
Sun_Helmet,
Thanks for taking the time to share some great information with us here. It's much appreciated. And thanks for the info on Lapu Lapu
Respectfully The 14th Style
Thanks for taking the time to share some great information with us here. It's much appreciated. And thanks for the info on Lapu Lapu
Respectfully The 14th Style
The 14th Style
Orange Belt
(Quote)
i dont think dan inosanto really believes everything he is telling people. for example, that arnis is the art of the north, eskrima of the visayas, and kali of mindanao. maybe once he believed it, but if he has met and train with edgar sulite and leo gaje, surely they have told him about that. and i am pretty sure somebody who speaks tagalog, told him "gunting" does not mean "destruction, it means scisors. many of the words he misuses, it would be to easy to find out the meanings of them. now, i am sure the kali word use came from one person, so perhaps he is showing respect to that teacher by calling the art "kali", no problem with that. but he is the ONLY person who tells the students that kali is the mother art. you mean, and expert of the philippine martial arts, the most well known of all FMA experts, and he doesnt know simple things like that? come on.
You make many good points. But as I said not defending him just wondering about his perspective. I know that he said that he took a lot of the knife fighting techniques out of his book, due to pressure from some of the old Masters that taught him. I also remember hearing that a lot of the old men wanted to hide their art and were very reluctant to teach people outside of the Filipino community. And that a lot of times when they did teach they held back or taught less effective techniques. I have heard that Danny Inosanto had and has a great deal of respect for the teachers with whom he trained. I wonder if this was his way of protecting these arts or a compromise, so that he could get permission from some of these teachers to publish his book. Just a thought.
(Quote)
back to 14th style's last point, "kali" and other words you want to use can be anything you want. but when people try to make up a history or connection to the philippines that does not exist, there is a real problem. for example, i read an article about "panantukan masters" in the philippines who like to box with knives ( ), completely ********, i would like to know where paul vunak got that from. this is the style of ted lucaylucay, but that history only goes back to him, yet vunak wants to make it look like this art goes back to the PI and its practiced by filipinos back home.
so Kali means counters moving away from the opponent? fine, but not FILIPINO philippine martial arts.
Unfortunately some people will always put money first. And you will never stop people from saying anything they want about this art or that. I do understand your frustration. I have learned more about my Mexican heritage from my father whom grew up in Mexico then I will ever learn from an American history book. But there will always be misconceptions about my people. That is the way of the world. I think the best way to combat this is to teach what you know and speak the truth as you see it. I know that I am willing to listen.
One last point I was not trying to define Kali when I talked about zoning. I was simply saying, that is how we looked at it.
Yours respectfully The 14th Stlye
i dont think dan inosanto really believes everything he is telling people. for example, that arnis is the art of the north, eskrima of the visayas, and kali of mindanao. maybe once he believed it, but if he has met and train with edgar sulite and leo gaje, surely they have told him about that. and i am pretty sure somebody who speaks tagalog, told him "gunting" does not mean "destruction, it means scisors. many of the words he misuses, it would be to easy to find out the meanings of them. now, i am sure the kali word use came from one person, so perhaps he is showing respect to that teacher by calling the art "kali", no problem with that. but he is the ONLY person who tells the students that kali is the mother art. you mean, and expert of the philippine martial arts, the most well known of all FMA experts, and he doesnt know simple things like that? come on.
You make many good points. But as I said not defending him just wondering about his perspective. I know that he said that he took a lot of the knife fighting techniques out of his book, due to pressure from some of the old Masters that taught him. I also remember hearing that a lot of the old men wanted to hide their art and were very reluctant to teach people outside of the Filipino community. And that a lot of times when they did teach they held back or taught less effective techniques. I have heard that Danny Inosanto had and has a great deal of respect for the teachers with whom he trained. I wonder if this was his way of protecting these arts or a compromise, so that he could get permission from some of these teachers to publish his book. Just a thought.
(Quote)
back to 14th style's last point, "kali" and other words you want to use can be anything you want. but when people try to make up a history or connection to the philippines that does not exist, there is a real problem. for example, i read an article about "panantukan masters" in the philippines who like to box with knives ( ), completely ********, i would like to know where paul vunak got that from. this is the style of ted lucaylucay, but that history only goes back to him, yet vunak wants to make it look like this art goes back to the PI and its practiced by filipinos back home.
so Kali means counters moving away from the opponent? fine, but not FILIPINO philippine martial arts.
Unfortunately some people will always put money first. And you will never stop people from saying anything they want about this art or that. I do understand your frustration. I have learned more about my Mexican heritage from my father whom grew up in Mexico then I will ever learn from an American history book. But there will always be misconceptions about my people. That is the way of the world. I think the best way to combat this is to teach what you know and speak the truth as you see it. I know that I am willing to listen.
One last point I was not trying to define Kali when I talked about zoning. I was simply saying, that is how we looked at it.
Yours respectfully The 14th Stlye
Sun_Helmet
Orange Belt
You're welcome!
Btw, if you are seeking for some books on Mexico's history. There's a couple that I would recommend that is not the typical glossed over text.
The Broken Spears - which maybe unpublished so you might have to seek it from some used book sellers or ebay.
Seven Myths of the Spanish Conquest by Restall. Dispells many myths and has a lot to say about the methods of Conquesta.
Also, with your interest in FMAs, ... Mexico received some exiled Filipinos who began rebellions on the islands during the Conquest. There's documentation of Tondo exiles arriving on the galleons.
Whether they influenced the blade culture in Mexico, is still being researched.
best,
--Rafael Kayanan--
Sayoc Kali
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---------
Btw, if you are seeking for some books on Mexico's history. There's a couple that I would recommend that is not the typical glossed over text.
The Broken Spears - which maybe unpublished so you might have to seek it from some used book sellers or ebay.
Seven Myths of the Spanish Conquest by Restall. Dispells many myths and has a lot to say about the methods of Conquesta.
Also, with your interest in FMAs, ... Mexico received some exiled Filipinos who began rebellions on the islands during the Conquest. There's documentation of Tondo exiles arriving on the galleons.
Whether they influenced the blade culture in Mexico, is still being researched.
best,
--Rafael Kayanan--
Sayoc Kali
---------
---------
---------
The 14th Style
Orange Belt
Hey Rafael !
Thanks for the book recommendation. I will definitely check them out. Could you recommend any books on the FMA's? I have a few, but I am always looking for more. I also wanted to say thanks to lhommedieu and The Boar Man and everybody else for taking the time to post some great info.
with respect
Russ D'Silva
Sun_Helmet
Orange Belt
Hello Russ,
I do not have that large of a library concerning FMAs related books. Most of the text I have concerns history relating to the islands. I know the typical FMA books are Inosanto's and Mark Wiley's. Many books that are FMAs oriented have tended to concentrate on the basics of the system, so perhaps others out there can speak more about their respected instructor's books.
Like video tape instruction, books have their obvious limitations and probably more effective if you already train in that system or just want to see the flavor of their art. I think they are a great way to introduce one's art to the public, as long as the public knows these items are merely the beginning.
--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali
-----------
------------
---------
----------
I do not have that large of a library concerning FMAs related books. Most of the text I have concerns history relating to the islands. I know the typical FMA books are Inosanto's and Mark Wiley's. Many books that are FMAs oriented have tended to concentrate on the basics of the system, so perhaps others out there can speak more about their respected instructor's books.
Like video tape instruction, books have their obvious limitations and probably more effective if you already train in that system or just want to see the flavor of their art. I think they are a great way to introduce one's art to the public, as long as the public knows these items are merely the beginning.
--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali
-----------
------------
---------
----------
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