Steve
Mostly Harmless
Good points. And I agree that it's not hanzous job. Is it your job to moderate the forum and enforce the ToS?
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Help me out Hapkido folks...
- Thread starter Hanzou
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Good points. And I agree that it's not hanzous job. Is it your job to moderate the forum and enforce the ToS?
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ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
Id say its all our jobs actually
I think it's less about caring and more about pure shock value.
It's shocking to see two high-ranking Hapkido black belts mess up a white belt/beginner level Judo/Bjj technique, and then think the fumbled technique was sound enough to put online for the world to see.
Relax. This is just like a car accident and we've slowed down to point and gawk at the accident scene. Eventually we'll see everything there is to see and keep driving along.
I don't personally see any shock value. I can just as easily post bad examples of any art.
The discussion that can come out of breaking down technique is interesting though. But I don't look at techniques in YouTube clips with discrediting in mind, I like to learn from them and get MT input, which has value to me.
While the spirit of this thread may not have been what I prefer, the conversation it spawns can be good.
OP
OP
Hanzou
Grandmaster
I'm not looking to discredit anyone either. I was simply shocked by the technique, and was curious why it was applied in that way. I didn't get extremely critical until other people gave their opinion, and you compared it to a technique with far better execution and validity.
Interestingly, Raymond does Hapkido and he's less offended than some people here who don't take Hapkido at all. He's also producing some great posts and adding to the discussion, instead of trying to shoot the messenger.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
I would say its definitely my job to point out a bad armbar and armbar escape, and direct people to the proper version of those techniques.
It's the least I can do.
And you would be wrong
OP
OP
Hanzou
Grandmaster
So you're saying that if you saw a pair of martial artists doing a technique wrong, you wouldn't show them the correct technique?
You'd really just keep letting them do the technique wrong? :uhoh:
I'm not totally qualified to answer the second question, as I admit I am not an expert grappler, and have just two years in submission wrestling.
But basically, the hierarchy of priorities if starting from a standing situation would be: close the distance -> clinch -> takedown -> pass the guard -> control -> submit.
If I am in Guard top, then I want to pass, control, submit. There are various ways of passing the guard for a beginner like me. Over pass, under pass, stand up pass and so on.
If I am guard bottom, them my priorities will be to: sweep, submit, or escape to standing. I can do that in a few ways, I can create space to escape, or break down their posture to control for the sweep or submission.
With that out of the way, I'll dive into your question. If I am guard top, I know my opponent has to do one of two things: break my posture down or create space to free his hips and escape. Basically it then becomes a chess game (to use a tired old cliche). Example, if I have space I can go for an under pass, once I start my under pass I KNOW from understanding these basics that he then needs to make his leg heavy, so if I feel his leg heavy I can not resist it and let is slide down/drop off of me and go for the over pass. If my opponent is equally skilled, he'll know that I am waiting for this and so on.
I've been told before that a blue belt (2 years of training or so) and a black belt (10 years of training or so) will know the same "moves". Much like me and a world chess champion both know how the pieces "move". But the difference in the blue belt and the black belt will be how quickly their brains and bodies react to said moves and feel the pressures.
The priorities of position I can also apply to my Hapkido. If someone has a single wrist grip on me, I know their priorities will be to control me or punch me. So my priority will be to: Guard for the punch (if the hand cocks back in typically bully fashion) -> step to an angle to off balance and better avoid the blow -> and then to either A) escape the grip or B) trap it and move into a lock of some variety. This is just one scenario, but I pick it as it is something that is done from the white belt level and onward in Hapkido, and should be similarly trained across various organizations of the art.
While there are many variables and places for tweaks in both arts priorities, I think you will understand what I am trying to convey. As another Hapkido person, if you grab another Hapkido person's wrist, you both know what the other may potentially do so it will be a game of who can react, feint, etc the other person more effectively since you both know the same "moves".
I hope I didn't ramble and attempted to answer your question.
I actually downloaded SK's road map for bjj some time ago when a lot of these discussions came up. Very interesting, along the lines you have gone into here.
The sensitivity side of things are great to have develop, I've been doing Hapkido for about 8 months now and am starting to get a feel for just one armed bait and trapping. Feeling the subtle push and pull. this is even before I start trying with cross arms and double. waiting for the opportunity to be presented to strike and lock.
Again for our ground work, we call it yusul, we start generally with collar standing and it can result in a lock or take down, then if it goes to the ground escapes and grapple etc. but each stage has the sensitivity, and on the ground is my weakest, I'm only starting accurately identify the positions I'm in, I try to repeat to myself each position I'm in and the opponent is in as it's happening. (in my mind of course) I find it helps me to come up with a strategy from my next moves based on acknowledging the position I'm in, it also calms me down and helps me rationalize and prepare.
As you say, there is definite room for taking on board what can be learnt from other styles.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
Your not showing them anything. They have a dojo in southern new Jersey did you contact them and tell then they are wrong? No you posted to make fun of them however since you asked
Yep I wouldn't show them anything unless they asked me to. IF it's not my art or people I know then its none of my business. I see poor techniques all the time from all arts. Guess what WHO CARES. Why do you feel the need to go around to all other arts but your own and point out what you think is wrong. Yet we don't even know what you actually train in. You said you just pick out cool logos to make as your profile pictures. Nobody has appointed you as the keeper of the martial arts. It's not your responsibility to go around "pointing and gawking" at others.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
I'm still wondering why you care so much about what hanzou cares about. You don't seem to want to answer. Its Almost like you are just trying to stir the pot. Surely that can't be true. Nice, friendly, laid back guy like you.
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ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
Quit trolling Steve that seems to be your MO lately I'm not as polite at TEZ you want to take this to PM and I'll tell you how I really feel
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Ballen, I've been posting on topic and trying to encourage you to do the same. That's not trolling. But, if you think I am, I once again encourage you to use the RTM function.
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ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
Yet you keep focuing on me. I guess I'm flattered and all but stop derailing the thread. If you have anything more to say to me or about me I'd gladly talk in PM and not derailing this thread where some are actully discussing the topic which follow along now Steve isn't me. You seem to be fixated on certain people on this forum you may need to take a break buddy
Steve
Mostly Harmless
The gooseneck there could work, but only if you've got the wrist there already.
Edit: Just want to add for clarification, if you've got the wrist lock, why fall to your butt?
Once on your butt, The concern I would have is that the first defense would be to reach across with the other arm to defend the wrist lock and the arm bar. I'd actually recommend either working the Kimura which keeps you up and actually sitting on his head, or using the wrist lock to set up the armbar.
There isn't any problem with keeping the right foot in the near side, but it's a little looser so keeping the knees pinched and pressure on the head will be important or you'll lose the technique.
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I see this as much more Hapkidoy, it's not uncommon to look at ways to break bones or disable parts if it's deemed necessary while executing a technique. At my level, I execute the arm bar as it's been taught to me this way. If the opportunity presents to snap the wrist or fingers, so be it. If the situation warrants. But it's not really the point of it, when being taught we are just having re-enforced that we can use our Hapkido principles in a lot of situations, just need to wait for the opponent to give it to you. I would generally not attempt the goose neck on someone else, but have had it on me. Some of our standing techniques can work on the ground, or long enough to step to another move.
Our teacher expects all of our techniques to work under pressure and duress otherwise he modifies it to work, or throws it out as useless and doesn't teach it..
OP
OP
Hanzou
Grandmaster
The armbar seems to be overkill in that demonstration. It was almost like the guy was saying "look what I can do from here, and here, and here!"
Other than that, it looked like a perfectly fine armbar, even if the set up was a bit much.
Inwan Kim's Hapkido technique is top notch and I would love to train HKD with him. But I'm not sure an armbar was appropriate from there, as I don't feel the pain compliance of the wrist lock gives you enough positional dominance and control to secure the arm bar.
Personal opinion time:
Many traditional artists (including HKD folks I have met) look at joint locks as using a small limb to bring down a mighty oak. However, if you just cut a branch off of a tree, the rest of the trunk stays up right? However among the various grappling arts (BJJ, Judo, wrestling, Sambo etc) to fully break the limb of the tree, we have to control the trunk and then we can move out to any branch we want.
Joint locks, chokes and submissions are the same. Inwan Kim here is using the wrist lock to break the limb but it relies more on pain compliance while he transitions into the arm bar. There's no pressure, or pinning technique to secure the position before the submission. That's the thing we drill into our brains over and over in grappling arts (which I consider HKD being depending on the organization or style): position before submission.
In that video, if Mr. Kim had placed is outside (head side) knee on the partner's head and the other on the ribs where it was, then I think that would have given him a good position to transition from the wrist lock to the arm bar (but there really wouldn't be any need to at that point). A position like this would have been great:
This person is working a kimura from North/South position, but I often will finish with the wrist lock from here by using my chest/sternum against the tricep and my hand on the back of their hand instead of gripping the wrist and pulling the hand towards the forearm like the wrist lock Mr. Kim applies. AS you can see, their is no room for escape or to lose position here and you use positional and pressure dominance to achieve the submission rather than just pain compliance (which is good for students to learn but not as reliable in self defense). From this position, you can transition and swing the back side leg over and into the arm bar.
However, my difference in choice of technique execution from the video of Mr. Kim might just simply be due to fundamental differences in our martial backgrounds and experiences. Mr. Kim's execution up to the wrist lock is good because if he needs to, he can easily let go and escape himself if the situation changes (multiple attackers etc). This ideal of Hapkido technique execution I agree with and one reason I practice the art. However when he chooses to go to the arm bar, he fully commits to an engaged battle with the attacker and even risks giving up his position in the likelihood of a scramble and can no not as effectively assess the situation for changes.
Personal opinion time:
Many traditional artists (including HKD folks I have met) look at joint locks as using a small limb to bring down a mighty oak. However, if you just cut a branch off of a tree, the rest of the trunk stays up right? However among the various grappling arts (BJJ, Judo, wrestling, Sambo etc) to fully break the limb of the tree, we have to control the trunk and then we can move out to any branch we want.
Joint locks, chokes and submissions are the same. Inwan Kim here is using the wrist lock to break the limb but it relies more on pain compliance while he transitions into the arm bar. There's no pressure, or pinning technique to secure the position before the submission. That's the thing we drill into our brains over and over in grappling arts (which I consider HKD being depending on the organization or style): position before submission.
In that video, if Mr. Kim had placed is outside (head side) knee on the partner's head and the other on the ribs where it was, then I think that would have given him a good position to transition from the wrist lock to the arm bar (but there really wouldn't be any need to at that point). A position like this would have been great:
This person is working a kimura from North/South position, but I often will finish with the wrist lock from here by using my chest/sternum against the tricep and my hand on the back of their hand instead of gripping the wrist and pulling the hand towards the forearm like the wrist lock Mr. Kim applies. AS you can see, their is no room for escape or to lose position here and you use positional and pressure dominance to achieve the submission rather than just pain compliance (which is good for students to learn but not as reliable in self defense). From this position, you can transition and swing the back side leg over and into the arm bar.
However, my difference in choice of technique execution from the video of Mr. Kim might just simply be due to fundamental differences in our martial backgrounds and experiences. Mr. Kim's execution up to the wrist lock is good because if he needs to, he can easily let go and escape himself if the situation changes (multiple attackers etc). This ideal of Hapkido technique execution I agree with and one reason I practice the art. However when he chooses to go to the arm bar, he fully commits to an engaged battle with the attacker and even risks giving up his position in the likelihood of a scramble and can no not as effectively assess the situation for changes.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Hey, that's exactly the kimura I was recommending from that position!Inwan Kim's Hapkido technique is top notch and I would love to train HKD with him. But I'm not sure an armbar was appropriate from there, as I don't feel the pain compliance of the wrist lock gives you enough positional dominance and control to secure the arm bar.
Personal opinion time:
Many traditional artists (including HKD folks I have met) look at joint locks as using a small limb to bring down a mighty oak. However, if you just cut a branch off of a tree, the rest of the trunk stays up right? However among the various grappling arts (BJJ, Judo, wrestling, Sambo etc) to fully break the limb of the tree, we have to control the trunk and then we can move out to any branch we want.
Joint locks, chokes and submissions are the same. Inwan Kim here is using the wrist lock to break the limb but it relies more on pain compliance while he transitions into the arm bar. There's no pressure, or pinning technique to secure the position before the submission. That's the thing we drill into our brains over and over in grappling arts (which I consider HKD being depending on the organization or style): position before submission.
In that video, if Mr. Kim had placed is outside (head side) knee on the partner's head and the other on the ribs where it was, then I think that would have given him a good position to transition from the wrist lock to the arm bar (but there really wouldn't be any need to at that point). A position like this would have been great:
This person is working a kimura from North/South position, but I often will finish with the wrist lock from here by using my chest/sternum against the tricep and my hand on the back of their hand instead of gripping the wrist and pulling the hand towards the forearm like the wrist lock Mr. Kim applies. AS you can see, their is no room for escape or to lose position here and you use positional and pressure dominance to achieve the submission rather than just pain compliance (which is good for students to learn but not as reliable in self defense). From this position, you can transition and swing the back side leg over and into the arm bar.
However, my difference in choice of technique execution from the video of Mr. Kim might just simply be due to fundamental differences in our martial backgrounds and experiences. Mr. Kim's execution up to the wrist lock is good because if he needs to, he can easily let go and escape himself if the situation changes (multiple attackers etc). This ideal of Hapkido technique execution I agree with and one reason I practice the art. However when he chooses to go to the arm bar, he fully commits to an engaged battle with the attacker and even risks giving up his position in the likelihood of a scramble and can no not as effectively assess the situation for changes.
Hey, that's exactly the kimura I was recommending from that position!
Yeah. To make it TL; DR from my post, it's nothing I find wrong with Mr. Kim's technique, just his "choice" of finishing technique isn't my cup o tea. I think he was well off just with the wrist lock.
The wrist lock from that kimura position is fun. Even if they grab the belt to defend the kimura like in that pic, you can still use pressure on the wrist with your fingers to create the bend. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about, hard to describe in text
