Help me out Hapkido folks...

[Hanzou]

I came across this vid earlier today, and I wanted your opinions about it;

I'm hoping someone can tell me the methodology behind this technique. Thanks.

 

[Buka]

That there is anti-grapplin stuff.

(it's funnier with a country western twang)

 

[jezr74]

 

[Hanzou]

That there is anti-grapplin stuff.

(it's funnier with a country western twang)

Anti-grapplin' is funny all by itself.

After all these years of grappling, I never realized you could stop an armbar simply by lifting up your attacker's leg. :lol:

 

[Instructor]

Unfortunately I can't watch this video with sound on the computer I am using. But I can say that the advent and popularity of the Brazilian Jiu Jitsu system has forced many traditional arts to revisit the ground portions of their programs. I for one think it's a good thing that so many styles are being pressed into thinking this way. While early approaches to combating BJJ may seem a little parochial to a skilled grappler at least our systems are working on defenses.

 

[Buka]

I think you're missing the bigger picture here. I see vast opportunity. I think we could successfully market a DVD series on thwarting. We would have called that "thwarting the armbar". I, off course, will do the audio. Next in the series will be "thwarting the rear naked by breathing through the nose. " Catchy title, no? "Thwarting side control with distraction" (clever one liner followed by a tickle and pinch)"

You'll have to wear your jits gi, with an appropriate mask. I will have a custom made gi that looks like this.

I will be The Prince of Thwarts.
We could make some big ducats with this!

Before anyone gets pissed about this, I like Hapkido. Just wanted to make that clear from the start. But the vid is tactically incorrect/fundamentally flawed. And hearing, "and today we're going to be discussing the ever so popular arm bar" leads me to believe the speaker is trying to cash in on, or perhaps discount, the popularity of ground based systems prevalent today. Maybe I'm wrong about that, maybe he was just taught something flawed to begin with, but the position, which is even described as "a common full mount position", and the obvious look of the attempted technique and attempted counter make me pretty sure in my assessment.

Besides, we just be funnin'.

 

[Gnarlie]

This is an interesting question Hanzou, thank you.

I'm no ground expert (neither am I a Hapkido master), but as I understand the principle behind a well executed armbar, you're using your core muscles and the large muscles of your back and legs to multiply force against the much smaller muscles and elbow joint of your opponent's arm. As I understand it, the lever point is is more likely to be against the upper leg than the groin for the hip pop, especially outside of a sport context where the person performing the armbar is not wearing a groin protector.

A critical view of this technique based on my limited experience would lead me to observe that the groin is not easily targeted with the elbow and in a scenario where retaliatory punching is likely with one hand trapped, antagonising the guy on top with bearable pain may not be a good idea in comparison to trying to escape the mount. I'd also observe that at the point where he says 'we are at least equal', the person performing the armbar has the advantage as the hand grapple is happening closer to his core, in his strong zone, so the defender ends up pitting his two arms against the strength of the opponent's core, back and legs. An unlikely win, I'd say.

As for lifting that leg, anyone claiming that that leg is liftable, particularly at the point he does it where the bar would be basically fully on, probably hasn't experienced the full extent of an armbar against them.

As I say, this is not my area of expertise, but in my experience when an armbar is 'half on', attempts to bend the arm can very quickly lead to a situation where it is snapped 'on'.

But, I think you know all this. I believe there are good strategies to counter common sport based grappling, but I think they require a level of critical thinking and exposure to competent execution of the thing they are aiming to counter, which is not being demonstrated here.

By the way, you can also get out of a triangle choke by lifting the leg off you. Just kidding.

 

[Instructor]

Hapkido has techniques for the ground but it's primarily a standing system. BJJ has techniques for standing but it's primarily a ground system. It makes sense that one is better suited for the ground and one is better suited for combat on your feet.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I don't know anything about Hapkido organizations. Is this guy (Secretary-General of the World SinMoo Hapkido Federation) anyone who is actually respected in Hapkido circles?


I don't know if it can be "anti-grappling" without some actual grappling to defend against. The kid he was demoing on didn't look like he had ever applied an armbar in his life and clearly had no idea of how one is supposed to work.

After all these years of grappling, I never realized you could stop an armbar simply by lifting up your attacker's leg. :lol:

Hey, clearing the attackers leg from off of your face is a component of several legitimate armbar escapes. It's just a lot easier when the person attempting the armbar has no idea what he's doing, as in this case.

Unfortunately I can't watch this video with sound on the computer I am using. But I can say that the advent and popularity of the Brazilian Jiu Jitsu system has forced many traditional arts to revisit the ground portions of their programs. I for one think it's a good thing that so many styles are being pressed into thinking this way. While early approaches to combating BJJ may seem a little parochial to a skilled grappler at least our systems are working on defenses.

Eh, I think the time would be better spent working on defenses for attacks you might actually encounter in the street, such as an untrained attacker trying to punch or choke from the mount. If for some reason you want to work defenses against an actual armbar as performed by a JiuJiteiro/Judoka/Catch Wrestler/whoever then you need to actually learn how to do the armbar in the first place. It's not really worth critiquing this "defense" because the "attack" was so incompetent that it would be highly unlikely to work even against an untrained opponent who had never practiced any defense.

 

[Instructor]

I don't know anything about Hapkido organizations. Is this guy (Secretary-General of the World SinMoo Hapkido Federation) anyone who is actually respected in Hapkido circles?


I don't know if it can be "anti-grappling" without some actual grappling to defend against. The kid he was demoing on didn't look like he had ever applied an armbar in his life and clearly had no idea of how one is supposed to work.



Hey, clearing the attackers leg from off of your face is a component of several legitimate armbar escapes. It's just a lot easier when the person attempting the armbar has no idea what he's doing, as in this case.



Eh, I think the time would be better spent working on defenses for attacks you might actually encounter in the street, such as an untrained attacker trying to punch or choke from the mount. If for some reason you want to work defenses against an actual armbar as performed by a JiuJiteiro/Judoka/Catch Wrestler/whoever then you need to actually learn how to do the armbar in the first place. It's not really worth critiquing this "defense" because the "attack" was so incompetent that it would be highly unlikely to work even against an untrained opponent who had never practiced any defense.

Seems reasonable to me and our system has techniques for these situations. I am not familiar with the gentleman in the video.

 

[Hanzou]

I don't know anything about Hapkido organizations. Is this guy (Secretary-General of the World SinMoo Hapkido Federation) anyone who is actually respected in Hapkido circles?

Who knows? Part of the reason I wanted to ask the Hapkido crew what they thought.

Eh, I think the time would be better spent working on defenses for attacks you might actually encounter in the street, such as an untrained attacker trying to punch or choke from the mount. If for some reason you want to work defenses against an actual armbar as performed by a JiuJiteiro/Judoka/Catch Wrestler/whoever then you need to actually learn how to do the armbar in the first place. It's not really worth critiquing this "defense" because the "attack" was so incompetent that it would be highly unlikely to work even against an untrained opponent who had never practiced any defense.

Agreed. There aren't many Bjj or Judo black belts roaming the streets attacking people. Your self defense time is better spent on actually learning armbars, not defending against them. Of course, the more you do, the better you are at defending against them.

 

[Steve]

This is an interesting question Hanzou, thank you.

I'm no ground expert (neither am I a Hapkido master), but as I understand the principle behind a well executed armbar, you're using your core muscles and the large muscles of your back and legs to multiply force against the much smaller muscles and elbow joint of your opponent's arm. As I understand it, the lever point is is more likely to be against the upper leg than the groin for the hip pop, especially outside of a sport context where the person performing the armbar is not wearing a groin protector.

Common misconception is that groin protectors are typical in BJJ. They are actually very rare, and in fact, are banned from any IBJJF competition. MMA uses a cup, but in BJJ, we rarely use them in training (it's often a matter of personal preference).

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Common misconception is that groin protectors are typical in BJJ. They are actually very rare, and in fact, are banned from any IBJJF competition. MMA uses a cup, but in BJJ, we rarely use them in training (it's often a matter of personal preference).

I used to wear a cup, but I figured out that it was getting me into bad habits where I didn't protect my groin properly. These days I rarely use one.

 

[seasoned]

Same here, my sensei always said....block. Of course this was dojo sparring where groin was open target with no cup.

Tournaments were mandatory.

Sorry for any drift from OP.

 

[jezr74]

I came across this vid earlier today, and I wanted your opinions about it;

I'm hoping someone can tell me the methodology behind this technique. Thanks.

Interesting comparison is

I've made an assumption Stephan Kesting is a reliable source of BJJ technique.

The comparison is interesting as they differ in many ways as far as driving into the groin and head placement, he mentioned not to roll your head back towards their body after removing the leg in the HKD version, which totally contradicts SKs explanation.

While both may be feasible, it will really depend on the skill level of the practitioner and opponent as already stated.

Another escape option using the legs.

 

[Buka]

Unfortunately I can't watch this video with sound on the computer I am using. But I can say that the advent and popularity of the Brazilian Jiu Jitsu system has forced many traditional arts to revisit the ground portions of their programs. I for one think it's a good thing that so many styles are being pressed into thinking this way. While early approaches to combating BJJ may seem a little parochial to a skilled grappler at least our systems are working on defenses.

The way you think is what has made the Martial arts move forward. I couldn't agree with you more. Great post.

 

[jezr74]

That there is anti-grapplin stuff.

(it's funnier with a country western twang)

After looking over a number of tubes around this maneuver, I think I like the term "escapes" rather than "anti-grappling" not that it's a real term.

One thing I love with ground work is you sometimes have time to put together a strategy then re-evaluate as you roll around and the situation changes. But I don't anti-anything.. I'm mainly trying to escape something, then apply something. Frankly when I'm on the ground I can barely predict what they are going to do and only have their weight movement to guide me. The escape, try and apply something, Fail\Success, rinse repeat. Anti-grappling to me would be getting to my feet and running.

 

[Hanzou]

Interesting comparison is

I've made an assumption Stephan Kesting is a reliable source of BJJ technique.

The comparison is interesting as they differ in many ways as far as driving into the groin and head placement, he mentioned not to roll your head back towards their body after removing the leg in the HKD version, which totally contradicts SKs explanation.

While both may be feasible, it will really depend on the skill level of the practitioner and opponent as already stated.

No, the HKD version isn't feasible because it's not demonstrating a proper armbar in the first place. If you notice, the HKD grandmaster supposedly begins the counter after his partner had already dropped back and hyper-extended the arm. By that point you're not only feeling pressure in the elbow, but the person performing the armbar is also driving his hips into your shoulder, pushing the rest of your body away while isolating the limb. Frankly, if I'm dropped back in an armbar, and feel someone attacking my leg (with one hand no less), I'm instinctively applying more pressure.

Again, this would all make more sense of course if the partner was executing a proper armbar. Just about everything about that armbar is wrong.

Kesting's counter on the other hand began before the dropping back, and hyper extension took place. Additionally, he's created a frame with both his arms interlocked together, allowing both his shoulders to help in pushing off the leg. He then pins the leg with his shoulders instead of just his head. That's what makes it a lot more feasible.

The third one is too convoluted for my taste. I mean seriously, if you can do all that, how did he get you in position for an armbar in the first place? :lol: However, at least the proper armbar set up is in place, and the counter is done BEFORE the actual armbar, unlike the HKD version.

 

[Hanzou]

Btw, here's a vid showing how to do an armbar from mount;

 

[Raymond]

This might be a bit of a rant, and I apologize to anyone I might offend.

I have seen that video in the original post before, and it is horrible technique; but I'll get to that. First thing is there really is no such thing as "anti-grappling". "Anti-grappling" is in effect, grappling. I feel like the term Anti-grappling is something created by people who felt threatened by grappling arts becoming popular, and so they try to come up with these crazy thing that don't work because the person coming up with them has NO understanding of grappling to start with. I find it similar to kung fu instructors who "show you how to defeat a boxer's jab" and then have someone do something that is totally not a jab at all. This falls under what Hanzou said above. In this video, neither the instructor or the student know how to an armbar at all.

The problem with this video is exactly that. Neither person knows how to do a proper arm bar, and thus their escape doesn't focus on anything considered fundamental in grappling. Instead of addressing concerns such as proper posture, creating space, not having shoulders and hips pinned down and elbows exposed, the instructor is predominantly focused on "the groin". The lack of understanding of principles of HOW the attacker would get into position to get said arm bar is exactly why "anti-grappling" stuff from non-grapplers is mostly junk. If you want to learn how to defeat something, you need to learn from an expert. Not someone who believes hitting the groin is the answer for everything.

Getting hit in the groin sucks, but I can tell you from experience that during a fight when adrenaline is high, it won't work. If someone has such a dominant position on you that they could arm bar you from mount, they are in a dominant enough position to respond to your "dirty tricks" of groin hits with their own "dirty tricks". Its like some people forget that a wrestler who has pinned you and has created isolation of both your arms is in a much better position to gouge your eyes than you are his.

World Sin Moo Hapkido Federation is Ji Han Jae's organization. Jae is a very well respected figure in Hapkido, so I respect and honor his ability. However, his instructors here are teaching things they don't have any knowledge of and that is dangerous to his students and dangerous to martial artists in general. It is ok that not EVERY art has answers for EVERY thing. That's why specialization exists. I wish more instructors would be able suck up their pride and admit they don't understand a part of fighting because their art does not include it and bring in a knowledgeable person for a seminar or even as a regular instructor to cover that deficiency. We can share our arts together.

Hapkido is an art that has its history in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu, and thus is mostly a self defense art with a majority standing techniques. However, the beauty of Hapkido is also that it has always been an eclectic art with many contributors and important figures coming into the family from other arts. Some examples are Suh Bok Sup from Judo in the earliest days of Choi instructing or Bong Soo Han with his experience in Kwon Bop (which is in itself descended from Chinese arts). With this history of being eclectic, I find it perfectly acceptable for a Hapkido instructor to say "my/our curriculum needs help here, can you help?" and reaching out to an expert in the field they are trying to shore up. That doesn't take away from Hapkido, it only makes it better. Instead, and this is endemic across traditional arts of all flavors, we have instructors introducing "crappling" to their curriculum without really understanding what they are trying to teach.