Help me be a better instructor

[Mark Lynn]

Sorry I meant Do San instead of Dan Gun, my mistake.

 

[dvcochran]

Good Evening everyone. Here is a clip of my senior student doing our four beginner forms. I would like any feedback possible so that I can become aware of things that I'm not catching to help her improve. Thank you so much for your time!

Looking at it from my TKD perspective, her arm movements, blocks and punches have little follow through. It looks as though they ramp down slowly to a stop instead of finishing with power. The most glaring thing for me is zero use of the hips. Especially in her blocks and punches, they are very segmented isolating use of only the respective arm instead of using the whole body. In her front stances there is little bend of the front knee and looks unstable. I can see her upper body "wave" at times. There is no change of speed in the first form but and I know this is a style thing but is it practical? Moves should ebb and tide and change speed to fit the attack or block. It does have a very traditional flavor assuming that is the way she has been taught.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Yes. Acknowledging that it's really difficult to do releases in a one-person form, the idea is that you've attacked with a speahand, and they've grabbed your wrist. The obvious release is to move the hand in a circle, levering against the thumb. In the Palgwae 4 video, the body is also twisted and pulled back to aid in the release. This also sets the distance and starts the movement for the spinning back fist.

In his video, the spearhand is at 2:01. She brings the rear foot forward and twists the spearhand to a palm down position. The way I was taught Do San, this is almost correct. The major difference is that as you stpe forward, you're supposed to twist the hand and push the arm down to try and lever out of the grip. As I said, I find this to be an ineffective method of releasing a wrist grab, and in the context of the form, will result in your being far too close to use the spinning backfist.

I teach this slightly different as a defense against a hand shake that the person won't let go of. Back in the day when men would shake hands with firms grips and occasionally someone would try and out muscle you and crush your grip. I know that time is long past so historically I think the application fits The hand shake being the spear hand, by twisting the spear hand downward it bends the opponent's wrist and bends his elbow shoulder everything towards the outside. Spinning around into a horse stance allows you to hit with the elbow first since the opponent is held in place by the wrist lock. However if he released the wrist lock and went to straighten up the hammer fist could get him.

Regardless I realize I've changed the form from a turn into a forward stance and back fist into a horse stance and hammer fist. However I have kept to similar motions in the form.

The move is a spread block, although it's not normally done by reaching up and spreading on the way down. Imagine a person coming in for a two-handed grab at your throat or lapels. The more usual performance of the spread block would be for the hands to come together (or cross slightly), move upwards between the incoming hands and push outwards against the forearms. In Do San, you follow that up with a low/mid-level kick (a high kick would be silly, given the ranges involved).

Grabs/throws/takedowns/releases and such are really difficult to see/understand from one person forms. One of the things I try to do is pair students up and go through these things with a partner. You can see the lightbulbs going off, at times.

I teach this move a little different too. We do this more as a X block and a double grab. Now the application could be a spread block like you suggest. In fact I think the first way I had seen an application for the combination was in one of the Pinan kata as a spread block but the person set his weight back into a back stance as his arms came up and then spread apart. By shifting backwards it tended to pull the persons upper body forward hollowing out their middle and the rear leg kick came from there. As using it as an X block and then grab, I have the person punch while the defender steps back into a front stance and executes the X block (shoving the punch upwards while moving the target (the head) backwards) then one hand grabs the punch and pulls it off to a side to clear the body and front kick and punch. Then let go and punch with the 2nd hand.

The same defense can be used against a over head weapon defense such as a stick if the person is at the distance where they are properly going to hit me with a stick then I need to move in to jam or block on the arm. So instead of stepping back as in the punch defense I step in towards the person under the over head swing as in the kata. From there one hand grabs and controls the weapon hand (twisting it) while off balancing him and then kicking him and following up with the punch.

Speaking of take downs, one of my favorites is one that I teach from this form as the back hand chop at the end. I tie our knife hand block execution action to the block, check and strike motion from Modern Arnis and apply it to the form Do San. So as a person punches you step to the side pass the punch on the outside (this is the chamber action of the back hand chop) grab with the other hand to pull him forward and lock the arm against the chest as the back hand chop comes out to turn the face and upper body bending them backwards behind you.

I believe partner drills really help the students start to take a more appreciative view of their forms.

 

[dvcochran]

The difficulty here is that what I see as wrong, you may see as correct. But here goes...

It doesn't look like you're teaching the Chang Hon forms with sine wave. That's fine; I was originally taught them without sine wave, and I still prefer them without, in large part because I'm not convinced sine wave actually adds any benefit.

That being said, this young lady is moving up and down. A lot. If you're doing sine wave, fine. In that case, she's not moving enough. But if you're not, then her head should be staying at the same level, not bouncing up and down.

When she's advancing in front stance, her feet remain at shoulder width throughout the step, rather than moving through an arc.

In Dan Gun, when she's doing the twin forearm blocks, (the first is at 1:30) her lower hand never fully rotates palm out. It's near vertical.

In Do San, the way she's doing the release (following the spearhand) is absolutely useless. That form does have you moving forward into the release (more on that in a minute), but the arm needs to be pushed downwards as it is twisted to have any chance of actually breaking a grip.

In Palgwe 4 our GM Shin teaches the wrist break down at 1:41 as stepping forward and around a first attacker, striking back fist to a second attacker. The wrist break up at 2:05 is similar. I question the second break much more as you are unable to put much of any other body force into the break except the bicep.

Now, personally, I think stepping into the release make zero sense. If you actually try it as done in Do San, it'll generally fail to release the grip. And you will always be at the wrong range for the spinning backfist. It just won't work. To be effective, you need to slide the front foot back and turn the body as you twist the wrist. That will not only have a much better chance of breaking the grip, it'll also put you at the right distance for the spinning backfist to be used.

At 1:39 in this video, you can see the release done in the way I'm describing.

She's doing nice, solid forms overall. Her stances are solid and consistent, as are her techniques.

 

[Mark Lynn]

The two main styles of American Tae Kwon Do are Tiger Rock and the ATA, if you're looking for what the American version of TKD looks like.

Azulx
I agree that maybe Tiger Rock and ATA are the largest American TKD organizations in the US, actually I have no idea if they are or aren't. To be honest I believe if you want to see what American TKD looks like go to any local open tournament and you will see many diverse schools all doing American TKD. Doing the same or similar forms different ways. That's the true American TKD.

 

[Mark Lynn]

If you want to be a better instructor then try to use those techniques in sparring until you are able to to each one in a free sparring situation. This will provide more insight into your system and it will help you become a better instructor, more than getting feedback from me and other's here.

From what I've seen of your own sparring, I would say that you are more than ready to take that journey. You can only go so far without trying to apply these techniques in free sparring. It doesn't have to be a requirement for your student's but it definitely should be a requirement for an instructor.

by the way keep up the good work.

JowGaWolf

I respectfully disagree. I don't believe that kata techniques are meant for sparring and I believe a person will hold themselves back by thinking these techniques must be used in sparring. Granted many kata were primarily shown in books in the context of sparring or dueling but I don't believe that is the original context for the techniques. Since Korean TKD came from or was influenced by Japanese karate which came from Okinawa, and China, if you look at the context of how karate was taught and trained in Japan it developed into more of a sparring method in the 30-40's. However in the 1900'still it was transplanted to Japan karate was taught through kata and application as a fighting art. So the grappling, throws, eye gouges, knees etc. etc. were removed for sparring but still remained in kata. Seeing that Gen Choi and others took Japanese kata and rearranged them to create new Korean forms those techniques and applications still remain (although now more mixed up). So to say you need to do these techniques in a free sparring situation I think is wrong. Controlled self defense drills yes but free sparring I disagree.

I mean in Chug Mu you have a jump 360 move that is taught as "I'm looking around to cover my surroundings" (seriously I was told this once), or maybe it's "I want to freak my opponent out in front of me so I'll do a crazy Monty Python move" but why would you try and pull that off in sparring? Or the eye gouge slam the head into the knee and turn to engage someone behind you in sparring. Same goes for the arcing motion with the foot work as trying to apply it as a lock knee take down or a set up to a throw, I think the possibility of injuring your training partner is to great. You can train that stuff on two man drills (i.e.applications of forms) and dueling with your sparring partner.

 

[Azulx]

Hello Azulx, I teach American TKD the same forms you do. Over all I think your student does a pretty good job but what rank is she? I couldn't tell if she is a 2nd dan, or a brown belt with two stripes or a dark purple with two stripes. Just wondering.

My views or critiques are mine only and I know that we do some things different, but you asked for feedback so here goes.

1) This is my first pet peeve when watching forms or even judging them in kata competition yet so often no ones does this. Before you turn around turn your head. Look we teach our kids to look both ways before crossing the street why wouldn't we teach our students to turn their head and identify where the attacker is, how they might be coming for the attack and so on. If kata represents what we are supposed to do in sparring or against and attack why would we have our students turn blindly into an attack when changing direction. So when teaching I first tell the students turn your head, chamber, turn and block. Your student never looks where she is going before she turns, instead she rotates her head as she turns. Just today when judging kata competition at a local tournament there was only one black belt competitor who I noticed without a doubt turning his head or shifting his gaze on every direction change. Most competitors executed the kata just like your student did. In Chulgi (Nahanchi/Tekki Nidan) I believe the opening move is looking both ways before you begin.

2) I too thought her stance looked a little wide but not extremely excessive. The next few videos featuring the ATA instructors all had just as wide stances. Does this make it right? That depends upon you and your belief as to why the stance should be wide or narrow. Since you are an independent you can make the change to how you see fit, not because some organization says this is how it is done. After reading everyone comments here, several believe it should be wide some believe it should be narrow. I teach about a shoulder width apart like several of the posters said. By having the stance to wide it is technically weaker, the groin is open to attack, etc. etc. again you have ability to change it or not. I do recommend you give it a lot of thought as to should you change it or not. What's the pros and cons of each type of stance.

3) I believe her back stance front leg is almost to straight, potentially setting it up for an attack. Now it is not as bad as I saw on a black belt exam once, there the student had been told to lean his weight back on the rear foot and lock his front knee out (making the leg straight) those of us on the exam board not from the school were kind of horrified and we all had the same concern that it was vulnerable to being attacked by a front kick, or set up for a lock knee take down etc. etc. but that was how the instructor was taught and how it was passed down to the student. Even at the tournament again today I saw the same stance from the American karate TKD schools, yet the more traditional (I.e. Shotkan, Isshinryu, Gojuryu, and other American karate schools) had a deeper stance with both knees bent.

4) In the last form Dan Gun I agree that the turn after the spear hand is problematic, I teach it similar to how Dirty Dog describes it except I teach a different application off of a hand grab (as in shaking hands) instead of the wrist grab. I teach a similar movement as in the video he posted only I step into a horse stance with a hammer fist hit that is the same as the final two back hand chops. By doing that if I'm to close like Dirty Dog says you will be (which you are) I can hit with a elbow strike prior to extending my arm. Like I said being an independent allows me the freedom to alter the kata to fit my teachings.

5) In regards to her transitions I too think she raises upwards to much. If you were teaching the sine wave then that might be OK. I teach it more in lines with the view of trying to keep your head level as you move from one technique/stance to the next. For instance at the end of Dan Gun she does the backhand chop and then raises upwards and lowers downward to chop. Why? What purpose does it serve? What application? These are questions to ask as to why raise up and down. From my understanding the head was kept level (based on Japanese karate from which the forms came from) until the sine wave was introduced in the late 70's early 80's and then it changed. Perhaps the adaptation of the up down movement is not the sine wave (with all of its back ground instruction) but rather a more modern adaptation influenced by the sine wave motion as taught by more modern instructors who see the sine wave and copy it without really understanding it. Just speculation on my part. But I see this all of the time, even today at the tournament, and when I ask about it there isn't a good reason for it. People usually say it's just how I was taught.

6) The stepping motion is your personal preference. I tend to teach the railroad track stepping motion to my beginners and the C step or arcing motion in the step to intermediate belts. Along with applications for the step.

I hope this helps. However over all she looked pretty good and I think you will make some good students.

I really appreciate all this info. My student is actually 5 geup/kyu. I’m a 2nd Dan. There is a video of me performing these forms as well in the members in motion section. I would love your feedback as well.

 

[Prostar]

Everyone teaches a bit differently and they are all "correct."

The one small thing I would ask for is to lead with the eyes. The best forms people I've seen would make you see the opponent in front of them.

 

[Buka]

Looked like a kid doing a form to me. Looked pretty good. I hope she stays with it.

I hope you do as well, Azulx.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

So the grappling, throws, eye gouges, knees etc. etc. were removed for sparring but still remained in kata. Seeing that Gen Choi and others took Japanese kata and rearranged them to create new Korean forms those techniques and applications still remain (although now more mixed up). So to say you need to do these techniques in a free sparring situation I think is wrong. Controlled self defense drills yes but free sparring I disagree.

There's no reason not to do grappling, throws, or knees during sparring. Eye gouges are trickier. There are ways to simulate them in sparring, but you need training partners you can really trust for safety so I usually don't bother.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There's no reason not to do grappling, throws, or knees during sparring. Eye gouges are trickier. There are ways to simulate them in sparring, but you need training partners you can really trust for safety so I usually don't bother.

The only way I've found to do any sort of eye attacks safely in sparring is with face shields (on sparring helmets) or well-fitted goggles. Enough effort that I rarely bother - more for a change of pace than anything else.

 

[JR 137]

There's no reason not to do grappling, throws, or knees during sparring. Eye gouges are trickier. There are ways to simulate them in sparring, but you need training partners you can really trust for safety so I usually don't bother.

All I can think of is the 3 Stooges. And their defense against the eye poke

 

[JR 137]

The only way I've found to do any sort of eye attacks safely in sparring is with face shields (on sparring helmets) or well-fitted goggles. Enough effort that I rarely bother - more for a change of pace than anything else.

3 Stooges eye poke defense

 

[JR 137]