Head on a pike...

[shesulsa]

OK, you went to far. There was a letter written, back in the day, suggesting giving disease ridden blankets to the Indians, but there are no documented cases.
Sean

Ooookay, and ... how polite and welcoming would you be when bandits arrive in the day or night laying claim to your real estate with a smile on their faces until you ask them to leave?

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2

 

[elder999]

OK, you went to far. There was a letter written, back in the day, suggesting giving disease ridden blankets to the Indians, but there are no documented cases.
Sean

Actually, this was done during the Seige of Fort Pitt, in 1763 the very incident you're speaking of, with letters written, and invoices extant that demonstrate that blankets and a handkerchief from the smallpox ward were, in fact, already given to the Delaware people at parley before the letters were written, for this expressed purpose. How successful such an effort would have been is debatable-the Delaware were probably already infected with smallpox....

Here's a quote from an article from the Colonial Williamsburg Foundation:

The Fort Pitt incident is the best documented case of deliberately spreading smallpox among unsuspecting populations, but it likely was not the first time such a stratagem was employed by military forces. It appears that Ecuyer and Amherst proposed the same idea independently at about the same time, suggesting that the practice was not unusual.

So, yeah-infected blankets, in spite of white guilt trying to revise the story. Sorry.

And, for what it's worth, I think they put a warrior's head on a pike at Fort Pitt.....:lfao:

 

[Sukerkin]

Ladies and gentlemen, interesting tho' this Cherry-Picking-Ensemble-Orchestra historical operetta is (and it is), please bear in mind that, even if sometimes the thread has no right to be there, threads in the Study are expected to stay quite closely related to the topic of the OP.

Mark A. Beardmore
MT Mentor

 

[granfire]

at least we are getting back to heads on pikes....

FOCUS, people!

 

[elder999]

Ladies and gentlemen, interesting tho' this Cherry-Picking-Ensemble-Orchestra historical operetta is (and it is), please bear in mind that, even if sometimes the thread has no right to be there, threads in the Study are expected to stay quite closely related to the topic of the OP.

Mark A. Beardmore
MT Mentor

Hey, far be it from me to tell anyone how to moderate or mentor, but:

I started the thread and as I have said many times before, I don't mind where they go once they are started. If you really have an issue with thread drift, you should start one and then monitor it to prevent off topic discussions, which is your right.

Someone else already has....:lfao:

In any case, I'd dare say that I could find some none too flattering images of Obama on bigpajamasheilbreitbart.nut
if I looked hard enough.

View attachment $hitler-obama.jpg

but that's free speech, isn't it?

Not a pike in the lot, either........

Oooh, wait!

Here's a great big head, on a great big pike:

:lfao:

 

[harlan]

Shocking, war-mongering, racist, tasteless, ignorant, disrespectful. Sorry I looked in.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Hey, far be it from me to tell anyone how to moderate or mentor, but:



Someone else already has....:lfao:

Yes, we did.

[h=1]Forum: The Study[/h] For the serious discussion of non-martial arts topics including world events, social and political issues, or other items not covered in the other forums. Topics in here should stay focused on their topic, with new threads created where topics split.

 

[billc]

From wikipedia on Franklin...

Iroquois Influence Thesis

According to a controversial thesis rejected by many professional historians,[SUP][6][/SUP] Benjamin Franklin's Albany Plan was inspired by the Iroquois Confederacy.[SUP][7][/SUP] He visited the Iroquois in 1744 and 1753, and, according to proponents of the thesis, held up the Iroquois Confederacy as a model for colonial government in a 1751 letter.[SUP][7][/SUP] According to historian Bruce Johansen, one of the primary advocates of the influence thesis, the visit in 1753 was at least partial inspiration for Franklin:

A year later, at a joint meeting of Iroquois and colonial delegates in Albany, Franklin proposed his “Albany Plan,” the first attempt to unite the colonies, a combination of Iroquois and European elements. The Albany Plan failed to gain ratification by the colonies, but served as a rough draft for later federal designs of Franklin for the Articles of Confederation, as well as his part in debates over the Constitution.[SUP][7][/SUP]
​

Scholars of the Iroquois Confederacy who have rejected the influence thesis include William N. Fenton[SUP][6][/SUP] and Francis Jennings, who called it "absurd".[SUP][8][/SUP] In a book on the Albany Congress, historian Timothy J. Shannon writes that "no evidence exists of an Iroquois influence in the drafting of the Albany Plan of Union".[SUP][6][/SUP] According to historian Walter A. McDougall, "However fetching the notion of Native American contributions to federalism and democracy, there is little evidence Franklin studied the Iroquois. Evidence of British influence on his ideas abounds."[SUP][9][/SUP] Iroquois historian Elizabeth Tooker stated that it was unlikely the Iroquois confederation had an impact on the American political system, as there were substantial differences between the two. A single tribe determined what topics would be discussed, and decisions were made through consensus, with each of the 50 sachem chiefs having a theoretical veto. Leadership was inherited, and new leaders were determined by the women of the tribes, who were not permitted to occupy a seat on the council. Representation was not determined by population sizes but by the number of clans in each tribe.[SUP][10][/SUP]

For emphasis...

Scholars of the Iroquois Confederacy who have rejected the influence thesis include William N. Fenton[SUP][6][/SUP] and Francis Jennings, who called it "absurd".[SUP][8][/SUP] In a book on the Albany Congress, historian Timothy J. Shannon writes that "no evidence exists of an Iroquois influence in the drafting of the Albany Plan of Union".[SUP][6][/SUP] According to historian Walter A. McDougall, "However fetching the notion of Native American contributions to federalism and democracy, there is little evidence Franklin studied the Iroquois. Evidence of British influence on his ideas abounds."[SUP][9][/SUP]

 

[Touch Of Death]

Ooookay, and ... how polite and welcoming would you be when bandits arrive in the day or night laying claim to your real estate with a smile on their faces until you ask them to leave?

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2

 

[elder999]

From wikipedia on Franklin...



For emphasis...

So what you're saying, then, is that three "scholars" somehow missed the notes of the secretary of the Continental Congress, as well as the governor of New York.:lfao:


You can read governor de Lancey's memoirs., detailing the appearance of Hedrick at the Albany Congress.

You can read the Life of Charles Thomson, secretary of the Continental Congress and Translator of the Bible from the Greek, (as well as scholar of Indian culture and relations, and adopted member of the Delaware tribe)

Or you can read Wikipedia. :lfao:

 

[billc]

Or you can listen to this historian...

William N. Fenton

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

William N. Fenton (December 15, 1908 – June 17, 2005) was an American scholar and writer known for his extensive studies of Iroquois history and culture. He started his studies of the Iroquois in the 1930s and published a number of significant works over the following decades. His final work was published in 2002. During his career, Fenton was director of the New York State Museum and a professor of anthropology at the State University of New York.

 

[billc]

I know it is difficult to get material from books onto the site, but you would need to quote specific passages from these guys to make your point. Otherwise, they are just books which you claim support your side. Not looking for a fight, just pointing out the difficulty that comes when material isn't readily available on the internet.

 

[billc]

Here you go elder...

http://www.upenn.edu/gazette/0107/gaz09.html

 

[granfire]

I know it is difficult to get material from books onto the site, but you would need to quote specific passages from these guys to make your point. Otherwise, they are just books which you claim support your side. Not looking for a fight, just pointing out the difficulty that comes when material isn't readily available on the internet.

:lfao:

It would help to quote the passage, or in lieu of that know the page and line number.

But in reality name and author of the book is quiet sufficient.
Don't be lazy.

 

[billc]

Here are the Federalist Papers online...

http://www.foundingfathers.info/federalistpapers/fedi.htm

Yes, I have nothing better to do than read books recomended by elder.

Hmmm...I tried typing in Iroquois into the search function on the Federalist Papers to find the contribution to the founding of our government by the Iroquois confederation, and...it came up no result. Hmmm...

7 hits came back for Rome...

10 hits for confederation, but not one hit on Iroquois...

2 hits on the magna charta...

And so it goes...

And again...

http://teachinghistory.org/history-content/ask-a-historian/24099

Other scholars are not convinced. Anthropologist Elisabeth Tooker, for example, argued that European political theory and precedent furnished the models for American Founders, while evidence for Indian influence was very thin. Although the concept of the Iroquoian Confederation may have been similar to the United States’ first efforts to unite alliance, the Iroquois constructed their government under very different principles. The member nations of the Iroquois League all lived under matrilineal societies, in which they inherited status and possessions through the mother’s line. Headmen were not elected, but rather clan mothers chose them. Representation was not based on equality or on population. Instead, the number of Council members per nation was based on the traditional hierarchy of nations within the confederation. Moreover, the League of Six Nations did not have a centralized authority like that of the federal system the Euro-Americans eventually adopted. These arguments are, however, intriguing. Curious to know more? Read the debate between Elisabeth Tooker and Bruce Johansen, and the articles in the William and Mary QuarterlyForum (1996) cited below.

 

[elder999]

Here you go elder...

http://www.upenn.edu/gazette/0107/gaz09.html

Here you go, billi


:lfao:

 

[billc]

Well...the moderators should be happy that your post is on topic...

 

[elder999]

Or you can listen to this historian...

Or you can look at this British guy with a head on a pike:


How........civilized.
:lfao:

 

[billc]

He looks like the guy from Braveheart.

Here are some things that actually helped create the U.S. Constitution...

http://www.sullivan-county.com/bush/constitution.htm

Ancient Athens

The Magna Carta

English Bill of Rights

Mayflower Compact

Bible and ancient Israel

And one of the big guys...

John Locke

No other individual influenced the author of the Declaration of Independence more than Unitarian John Locke (1632-1704). He was a British philosopher who rejected the idea that Kings had a divine right to rule. Instead, Locke argued that people are the source of power, not kings.
Locke argued that people are born with certain "natural" or "inalienable" rights. These include the right to "life, liberty and property." Government did not give people these rights; rather they are born with them and as such, no government can take them away.
According to Locke, people formed governments to protect their rights, which he called a "social contract." People agreed to obey the government and in return, government had the responsibility to protect peoples' natural rights.
Locke also argued that if the government failed to protect our natural rights, then the people had the right to replace the government. Locke's ideas became very influential in developing democratic ideas. Thomas Jefferson, in writing the Declaration of Independence, drew heavily from the writings of John Locke.

In particular...

http://curiosity.discovery.com/question/where-pursuit-happiness-phrase-originate

Another theory is that Jefferson was influenced by his contemporary Dr. Samuel Johnson, who had used the exact phrase "pursuit of happiness" in an essay called the "The False Alarm." Johnson was a Tory, however, so it's more likely that Jefferson got the famous phrase in the U.S. Declaration of Independence from Locke.

 

[granfire]

Here are the Federalist Papers online...

http://www.foundingfathers.info/federalistpapers/fedi.htm

Yes, I have nothing better to do than read books recomended by elder.

Hmmm...I tried typing in Iroquois into the search function on the Federalist Papers to find the contribution to the founding of our government by the Iroquois confederation, and...it came up no result. Hmmm...

7 hits came back for Rome...

10 hits for confederation, but not one hit on Iroquois...

2 hits on the magna charta...

And so it goes...

And again...

http://teachinghistory.org/history-content/ask-a-historian/24099

Reading a real book takes about as much time as reading stuff on the net. On the upside, you get out of mom's basement for a spell of fresh air on the way to the library.