Has olympic Taekwondo ruined the reputation of the art?

[Laplace_demon]

Not that I know of. The records do not show how many votes were cast for what. Or at least, none that I've ever seen. If you have an actual voting history, please procide the source.
Otherwise, this statement becomes just another in the category of "mythical father" claims.

You don't seem to know anything about TKD history. General Choi was the one who submitted the name Taekwon-do. There was at one point voting over if the later known WTF/KKW would change it's name from Tae Soo Do name to TKD, and it won by a one vote margin. I have no interest digging through the archieve simply to educate an obnixous moderator.

 

[Dirty Dog]

You don't seem to know anything about TKD history. General Choi was the one who submitted the name Taekwon-do. There was at one point voting over if the later known WTF/KKW would change it's name from Tae Soo Do name to TKD, and it won by a one vote margin. I have no interest digging through the archieve simply to educate an obnixous moderator.

So, this would be you admitting that you don't have any support for your claims. OK. Got it. Mythical father it is.
I have, in fact, spent a fair bit of time researching the history of TKD, including talking personally to people who were actually there.
And they disagree with your claims.
Doesn't mean you're wrong. Just means that you're going to need to provide some support for your claims, since they fly in the face of the history reported by the founders.

 

[Laplace_demon]

So, this would be you admitting that you don't have any support for your claims. OK. Got it. Mythical father it is.
I have, in fact, spent a fair bit of time researching the history of TKD, including talking personally to people who were actually there.
And they disagree with your claims.
Doesn't mean you're wrong. Just means that you're going to need to provide some support for your claims, since they fly in the face of the history reported by the founders.

Have I read what I just wrote, Yes. Does it count as a reliable account of history, I don't know. I don't however see any reason to doubt it either. It was General Choi-neutral. At least they way I read it. And I don't have any interest to prove that I am not delusion by digging back my online history.

Are these masters you speak of, the same claiming that Sine Wave was an integral part of ITF Taekwon-Do in the late 60s? When we in fact have footage showing NO traces of Sine Wave even in early 70s (72). I don't neccesarily trust people who were apart of that era, simply by default. Rewriting history is not uncommon.

 

[TrueJim]

You don't seem to know anything about TKD history. General Choi was the one who submitted the name Taekwon-do...

I'm afraid Dirty Dog is right, Laplace. The claim that General Choi invented the name is widely disputed outside ITF-circles. There's widespread acknowledgement that General Choi strongly advocated for the adoption of the name, but there's no hard evidence that he invented the name. In fact there are some folks who lived through that era who claim he did not invent the name at all, but even they do admit that - in any case - he at least liked the name early-on and ran with it, promoting the adoption of that name among fellow kwan leaders.

So here's an analogy: suppose the lead singer of the band Fun! (Nate Reuss) joined the band Maroon 5, and then convinced the band to change their name to The Lemmings - whether he came up with the name or not. Now suppose The Lemmings perform on-stage for a couple years, and release a few albums, then Nate Reuss quits the band. Does Nate get to take the name of the band with him? Or does the band still get to call itself the Lemmings? I would argue: the band's name is the Lemmings, whether Nate is in the band or not. Nate needs to find himself a new name for his band.

By analogy, in 1965 when General Choi rejoined the Korea Tae Soo Do Association as its president, he convinced the KTA to rename itself to the Korea Taekwondo Association. Then in 1966 General Choi left the KTA to form the ITF. I think a person could make a reasonable argument that the name belongs to the KTA, not to General Choi personally. But I think a reasonable person could also argue that it really doesn't make any difference...taekwondo can have different styles, just like karate can have different styles.

If you haven't read through this yet, you really should read it: Timeline of Taekwondo - Taekwondo Wiki Or at least read this: http://web.stanford.edu/group/Taekwondo/documents/tkd_history.pdf

 

[Laplace_demon]

I never claimed that Choi "invented" the name. What I did write was that he submitted it.

 

[Laplace_demon]

I But I think a reasonable person could also argue that it really doesn't make any difference...taekwondo can have different styles, just like karate can have different styles.
f

And the difference is not as big as some say. The issue however is not with the KKW, but their sparring format and Olympiad, which has moved away from TKDs roots so much that it has hurt the art. TKD is nowdays inevitably associated with the Olympics and flashyness.

 

[Gnarlie]

And the difference is not as big as some say.

That's the first thing you have ever said that I have agreed with. Achievement unlocked!

The issue however is not with the KKW, but their sparring format and Olympiad, which has moved away from TKDs roots so much that it has hurt the art.

Damn. Back to disagreeing. Whether or not you view Shihap Kyorugi as being far removed from Taekwondo's roots depends on what you think it is actually for. If you think it is for fighting, then yes, far from the roots. If you think it is for promoting reaction and independent thinking, along with an appreciation of application of Taekwondo's principles in a dynamic situation, then no not so far from the roots.

TKD is nowdays inevitably associated with the Olympics and flashyness.

I have no problem with that. I always enjoy being underestimated.

 

[TrueJim]

...TKD is nowdays inevitably associated with the Olympics and flashyness.

And technically, one could argue that if everybody started to use the word "chair" to mean "table"...then that's what a chair is: a table. If most people use the word taekwondo to describe what they see at the Olympics, then one could argue that nowadays THAT is the main definition of taekwondo, and the way we - the minority here at Martial Talk - use the term...our usage is the outlier, not the norm. It really depends on your point-of-view. If you're a person who's really into Olympic taekwondo, that is the definition of taekwondo (and as you say...those people outnumber the rest of us by a LOT).

 

[Laplace_demon]

Well yeah, most people don't even know about ITF. The thing is though, Olympic TKD really is Taekyon, not TKD. Even Aaron Cook readily admit it's all about kicking since punching may leave you exposed and it doesn't score as high.

 

[TrueJim]

Well yeah, most people don't even know about ITF.

Exactly right. So does a word have the meaning that's related to however most people actually use the word? Or does a word have the meaning of a comparatively small and unknown minority? Arguably, Olympic taekwondo is the "main" definition of taekwondo, and everything else is just a secondary meaning of the term. Like the way "kleenex" has come to primarily mean "tissue" in the U.S.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Well yeah, most people don't even know about ITF. The thing is though, Olympic TKD really is Taekyon, not TKD. Even Aaron Cook readily admit it's all about kicking since punching may leave you exposed and it doesn't score as high.

No, it's not. Nobody really knows what taekyon was, because it (like so much else) was suppressed during the Japanese occupation, and there are no surviving sources.
There is a man who has been declared a "national treasure" because he claims to know taekyon. I find his claims hard to believe, since in order for them to be true, he'd have been a master at the age of about 7.

 

[Gnarlie]

Well yeah, most people don't even know about ITF. The thing is though, Olympic TKD really is Taekyon, not TKD.

It really isn't Taekkyon.

Even Aaron Cook readily admit it's all about kicking since punching may leave you exposed and it doesn't score as high.

Really depends on when you punch. He scores with punches quite often, but his punching strategy aims to minimise vulnerability. You take him out of context.

 

[TrueJim]

No, it's not. Nobody really knows what taekyon was, because it (like so much else) was suppressed during the Japanese occupation, and there are no surviving sources. There is a man who has been declared a "national treasure" because he claims to know taekyon. I find his claims hard to believe, since in order for them to be true, he'd have been a master at the age of about 7.

One thing I wonder about...even if he does know taekyon (which I agree is debatable)...might there have been multiple styles of taekyon in the past? So maybe this dancy bouncy little thing we call taekyon now wasn't a dominant style...assuming it was even a style at all.

 

[Jaeimseu]

So here's an analogy: suppose the lead singer of the band Fun! (Nate Reuss) joined the band Maroon 5, and then convinced the band to change their name to The Lemmings - whether he came up with the name or not. Now suppose The Lemmings perform on-stage for a couple years, and release a few albums, then Nate Reuss quits the band. Does Nate get to take the name of the band with him? Or does the band still get to call itself the Lemmings? I would argue: the band's name is the Lemmings, whether Nate is in the band or not. Nate needs to find himself a new name for his band.[/URL]

It worked for Axl Rose. I believe he's still using the name Guns n Roses even though he's the only guy from the original band.

 

[TrueJim]

It worked for Axl Rose. I believe he's still using the name Guns n Roses even though he's the only guy from the original band.

Touché! In that case though...wasn't it a matter of the other band members (not Axl) leaving the band one-by-one, so that only Axl remained? In other words, Axl himself never left the band. I think if all the other kwans had left the KTA one-by-one so that only only General Choi's Oh Do Kwan remained, that would be a different story.

 

[Jaeimseu]

Touché! In that case though...wasn't it a matter of the other band members (not Axl) leaving the band one-by-one, so that only Axl remained? In other words, Axl himself never left the band. I think if all the other kwans had left the KTA one-by-one so that only only General Choi's Oh Do Kwan remained, that would be a different story.

Yeah, I think Axl was such a jerk that everyone else left. General Choi apparently wasn't at Axl's level. He must have annoyed people enough for them to ask him to go.

 

[Laplace_demon]

I don't dispute that Taekwondo has morphed into a new meaning for most people, given that ITF is so small in comparison. Taekwondo originally meant Korean Karate, and while I do like Karate it's not the reason for my preference, but rather my appreciation of martial arts and not sports. Anybody reading the opening post of this thread will understand why it's a sport.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I don't dispute that Taekwondo has morphed into a new meaning for most people, given that ITF is so small in comparison. Taekwondo originally meant Korean Karate, and while I do like Karate it's not the reason for my preference, but rather my appreciation of martial arts and not sports. Anybody reading the opening post of this thread will understand why it's a sport.

But, as has been pointed out repeatedly, taekwondo is not a sport. It is a martial art, a limited subset of which is used in a sporting venue.

 

[Laplace_demon]

The WTF always refer to TKD as a sport (makes me want to puke). That was their goal from the get go and they have achieved it

 

[Laplace_demon]

Yeah, I think Axl was such a jerk that everyone else left. General Choi apparently wasn't at Axl's level. He must have annoyed people enough for them to ask him to go.

According to Rayners Academy:

"After General Choi s second trip to North Korea, personal calls were made per order of the Korean government to first generation instructors of ITF dojangs. The warnings via the Korean embassies and consulates was As long as you are under General Choi, you will be blacklisted and be blocked from ever entering South Korea again. Most ITF instructors with relatives and family back home relented to the South Korean government s pressure. Many overseas ITF instructors requested help from former colleagues in the U. S. to sponsor
their immigration to the U. S. as they left Gen. Choi s organization.

Opponents of ITF, mainly the WTF organizers seized the opportunity and branded Gen. Choi a traitor/communist and a subject of treason. Until his death, Gen. Choi was not allowed into South Korea."

Rayners Lane Taekwon-do Academy Section 2