Has MMA surpassed traditional MA in its effectiveness

[MJS]

?

Confused on something??

 

[fangjian]

I'm leaning in agreement with Daniel here. As I've said in earlier posts, much is going to come down to how you train. I'm not sure if the questions being asked here are legit or baiting but nonetheless, I don't think that its that difficult to see a difference, especially if you're the slightest bit familiar with MMA. Actually, I gave a few examples just a moment ago, when I spoke of the guard.

Lets use this as an example...I know we've all talked about the saying, "You fight like you train." So going on that, lets use Rocye as an example. Anyone familiar with his fights, should see that his striking skills are not up to par. His specialty is fighting on the ground, not striking. That being said, is it going to make sense, to pull guard, for the sake of pulling it, as I mentioned in my last post, to tire someone out, just so you can go for a sub., when there are many other things, that are available to you, that probably won't put you in a bad position?

People who hate on MMA always say things like "What are you gonna do on the street, pull guard?" "There's no eye poking and fish hooking. It's just a sport" with a sarcastic voice and all. I'm trying to ask what are then the real disadvantages of MMA?
I agree that simple SD is different. We train that at my place seperately too.

I was trying to think of BJJ fights of the past and I always recall those guys-- keeping distance for a moment and looking for the clinch/takedown. Getting the takedown and proceeding to a better position t finish the fight. I don't remember any of them pulling guard

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

What sport techniques in MMA would be a bad idea?

Well, for starters, "in MMA" implies that the techniques are peculiar to MMA, and the are not. They did not come from MMA. The techniques and/or strategies come from their donor arts.

Kicks to the head of a standing opponent are generally a bad idea outside of a sport setting (while not common in MMA, they do occur). Lenthy submissions, rolling on the ground for extended lengths of time. Any techique that takes advantage of a rule setting, be it in MMA or anything else.

I am sure that anyone who competes in MMA tournaments could give you a laundry list of things that they do in the ring that they would not do in an SD context.

Just to clarify, I am referring to competative MMA, not hybrid martial arts developed specifically for real world use.

You ask, "what are then the real disadvantages of MMA?" There are not any specifically. MMA competitors all train in several somethings. Just as they know what techniques to not use in the ring/cage/octagon, I assume that they also know what techniques to not use in SD.

Daniel

 

[MJS]

People who hate on MMA always say things like "What are you gonna do on the street, pull guard?" "There's no eye poking and fish hooking. It's just a sport" with a sarcastic voice and all. I'm trying to ask what are then the real disadvantages of MMA?
I agree that simple SD is different. We train that at my place seperately too.

I was trying to think of BJJ fights of the past and I always recall those guys-- keeping distance for a moment and looking for the clinch/takedown. Getting the takedown and proceeding to a better position t finish the fight. I don't remember any of them pulling guard

Are you saying that I am hating on MMA? If thats the case, I think that you need to re-read many of my posts, because I have said many times, that I enjoy watching it, hang out with people who enjoy it, train in it, teach it, you name it. I have also said many times, that those TMAists, who claim that the eye gouge is "the deadly" end all be all fight finisher, make me cringe.

You dont recall people pulling guard? Keep in mind, as I've said, which apparently went missed, I've said that MMA has evolved from the early years. But, for the sake of your question, let me point you to the following:

Royce pulls guard against Shamrock 35 secs in. Again around 1:15. The fight at 1:29. While he did not pull guard, he was still looking to take Remco down. Towards the end of this clip, which is Royce vs. Dan Severn, he spent the entire fight in his guard. Now, I will say that there were times when he got mount or side mount. The only striking that you saw from him, was once he was in an advantageous position.

This goes back to what I was saying before....its one thing to end up on the ground at no fault of your own, but to intentionally take the person there, with the sole purpose of finishing on the ground, in a street, RL situation, IMO, isn't the wisest thing to do.

Again, I enjoy MMA, and I've added a few things to the way I train. I feel that having a ground game is very important for every art, due to the fact that MMA is so popular, its very possible in a RL situation, we could face someone with grappling skill. Better to have it and not need it, than to not have it and wish you had. I'll also say that depending on the school, that will determine what type of grapplers they put out. If its a pure BJJ school, with the focus on competition, chances are, they may not focus on SD situations, that a Kenpo, TKD, Hapkido, etc. school may.

I've always felt that if you want to be as well rounded as possible, you need:

Striking, kicking, clinch, weapons and ground.

 

[fangjian]

When I think of MMA, I think of someone who trains all 4 ranges of unarmed combat ( let's say; sprawl and brawl, clinch and pound, ground and pound, and submission grappling) and spars those 4 ranges. It could be my ignorance but I just don't see a lot of disadvantages in the training method or techniques. When it comes to the actual competitive sport, I can't find many holes in the testing of this knowledge either.

At my place, we do that, plus we do weapon stuff with Filipino martial arts and my students have to know basic escapes from common self defense situations. That's all I could think of that the above paragraph kind of lacks.

 

[fangjian]

Are you saying that I am hating on MMA? If thats the case, I think that you need to re-read many of my posts, because I have said many times, that I enjoy watching it, hang out with people who enjoy it, train in it, teach it, you name it. I have also said many times, that those TMAists, who claim that the eye gouge is "the deadly" end all be all fight finisher, make me cringe.

Sorry. The first paragraph was intended to be an 'in general' statement. The second paragraph was for you. I'll try to take more care with my posting. hahaha Reminds me of when I went to a Tai Chi seminar one time and the teacher was saying how UFC, Pride isn't real fighting because they don't train eye gouging etc. Made me and my friend laugh for a while.

You dont recall people pulling guard? Keep in mind, as I've said, which apparently went missed, I've said that MMA has evolved from the early years. But, for the sake of your question, let me point you to the following:

Royce pulls guard against Shamrock 35 secs in. Again around 1:15. The fight at 1:29. While he did not pull guard, he was still looking to take Remco down. Towards the end of this clip, which is Royce vs. Dan Severn, he spent the entire fight in his guard. Now, I will say that there were times when he got mount or side mount. The only striking that you saw from him, was once he was in an advantageous position.

Thanks for getting the clip for me. When I said early BJJ fights I was thinking more like those closed door fights back before the UFC. I'm sure 'pulling guard' happened but not at a rate that condones people talkin smack to me all the time. "What are you gonna do pull guard" haha

This goes back to what I was saying before....its one thing to end up on the ground at no fault of your own, but to intentionally take the person there, with the sole purpose of finishing on the ground, in a street, RL situation, IMO, isn't the wisest thing to do.

I guess maybe it's just about comfort levels. I enjoy grappling and feel comfortable there. I think if I was to get in a street fight I would definately go for a takedown ( I'm not very comfortable with my boxing) and ground and pound. That doesn't mean I would go for side control or north south. More like-get a clinch-ankle pick-kick him while he's down.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

When I think of MMA, I think of someone who trains all 4 ranges of unarmed combat ( let's say; sprawl and brawl, clinch and pound, ground and pound, and submission grappling) and spars those 4 ranges. It could be my ignorance but I just don't see a lot of disadvantages in the training method or techniques. When it comes to the actual competitive sport, I can't find many holes in the testing of this knowledge either.

At my place, we do that, plus we do weapon stuff with Filipino martial arts and my students have to know basic escapes from common self defense situations. That's all I could think of that the above paragraph kind of lacks.

When someone says, "MMA", particularly on the internet, it is pretty much universally recognized as referring to the competative sport.

Certainly, the fact that it stands for mixed martial arts does not help in clarity, as I know guys who mean that they train in either multiple martial arts and blend them in their own practice or who train in places where martial arts are "mixed" in order to prevent holes in training. Which is of course, not the same thing as competative sport.

Daniel

 

[Tez3]

Well, for starters, "in MMA" implies that the techniques are peculiar to MMA, and the are not. They did not come from MMA. The techniques and/or strategies come from their donor arts.

Kicks to the head of a standing opponent are generally a bad idea outside of a sport setting (while not common in MMA, they do occur). Lenthy submissions, rolling on the ground for extended lengths of time. Any techique that takes advantage of a rule setting, be it in MMA or anything else.

I am sure that anyone who competes in MMA tournaments could give you a laundry list of things that they do in the ring that they would not do in an SD context.

Just to clarify, I am referring to competative MMA, not hybrid martial arts developed specifically for real world use.

You ask, "what are then the real disadvantages of MMA?" There are not any specifically. MMA competitors all train in several somethings. Just as they know what techniques to not use in the ring/cage/octagon, I assume that they also know what techniques to not use in SD.

Daniel

Daniel, thats spot on! In MMa fights also a fighter knows who he's matched with and will have developed tactics to deal with that opponents strengths and weaknesses so watching a fighting doesn't mean you see all the techniques available in MMA. One of our fighters was matched with a UK champion Judoka so the plan was to keep him standing as much as possible to negate his strength, his plan was to get our fighter on the floor as much as possible. None of this happens in a self defence situation. Our fighter won by a flying knee to the chin and KO, our fighter is also a doorman and knows exactly what he should use in MMA and what he can use 'on the street' as it were.
Many techniques used to get submissions etc can be nicely adapted for use in self defence, it requires presence of mind as much as anything else.
Being small and female I often end up on the floor when dealing with and trying to arrest, however since I've being doing MMA I haven't felt so 'lost' as before when I just did karate. It ain't ideal to be on the ground personally I would never go for a takedown and throws usually end up with me being lighter going down too. I think being a mile down the road is the best bet lol but having more confidence if you are stuck on the floor there is great. I do practice getting up a lot from being put down, I think thats important. Pepper spray and a baton is pretty good too lol.

Certainly in the UK when MMA is mentioned it means the competitive art and nothing else. People when doing more than one art or mixing them up it's refer to it then as cross training. Perhaps suicide means cross training really and not MMA?

 

[Bruno@MT]

what mma sport tech. do you think would be a bad idea to use on the street ?

First thing that comes to mind: going to the ground.
Bad idea if you are not in a context where you know for sure that there is only one opponent.

 

[tallgeese]

see my post higher up....things happen, best to be prepared.

 

[suicide]

First thing that comes to mind: going to the ground.
Bad idea if you are not in a context where you know for sure that there is only one opponent.

most street fights end up on the floor wheather you like it or not , ready or not - no matter what the case is : one on one or three on one so i doubt a mma will freeze up and not know what to do once he know hes going to the concrete.

 

[blindsage]

most street fights end up on the floor wheather you like it or not , ready or not - no matter what the case is : one on one or three on one so i doubt a mma will freeze up and not know what to do once he know hes going to the concrete.

Really? They do? What other Gracie mythology do you buy into?

 

[BLACK LION]

I hear alot that "most streetfights end up on the ground"... its like a jingle or a slogan...

In a sense it is true and that is that sooner or later somebody is going to be on the ground... its false in the sense that every physical altercation ends in a wrestling or grappling match. It brings a misconception that it is somehow important to train to "go to the ground"... when it is the complete opposite...

Most street fights end up with someone either being jumped, stabbed or shot... Its rare that you see a real street fight between 2 people in which they are both at leisure to duke it out between each other... people these days just dont fight like that...
I see them end more violently and more frequently than these schoolyard or backyard party brawls tossed around on the net...
I see bottles flying...knives gleaming and guns blazing.

 

[jarrod]

all fights start on the feet.

grappling should be included in SD training to prepare for a worst case scenario, not as a primary strategy.

jf

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

all fights start on the feet.

grappling should be included in SD training to prepare for a worst case scenario, not as a primary strategy.

jf

Jarrod points out that you need to know how to grapple even if you do not want to be there. If you are taken down it would really be a shame if you did not know what to do. Just makes for some common sense!

 

[suicide]

Really? They do? What other Gracie mythology do you buy into?

yeah they do and gracie aint got nothing to do with it so leave em out of it dog ! i ve seen fights were one dude drops the other with a punch to the face and gives him a chance to get up - but you see that aint gonna happen everytime not everyone is that righteous most cats will go in for the kill and comense with the ground and pound.

 

[pmosiun1]

whats your opinion on this ...

I think it is true. I believe that in order to learn how to fight, you must actually fight. MMA people do not claim to be able to survive gang fights or knife attack but alot of traditional martial art out there claim their martial art teach how to deal with knife attack or multi-opponent. Just look at your typical tae kwon do knife defense.

 

[Tez3]

yeah they do and gracie aint got nothing to do with it so leave em out of it dog ! i ve seen fights were one dude drops the other with a punch to the face and gives him a chance to get up - but you see that aint gonna happen everytime not everyone is that righteous most cats will go in for the kill and comense with the ground and pound.

Anyone want to translate this for me?

 

[jarrod]

Anyone want to translate this for me?

suicide's personal observations confirm that most fights go to the ground.

jf

 

[seasoned]

I hear alot that "most streetfights end up on the ground"... its like a jingle or a slogan...

In a sense it is true and that is that sooner or later somebody is going to be on the ground... its false in the sense that every physical altercation ends in a wrestling or grappling match. It brings a misconception that it is somehow important to train to "go to the ground"... when it is the complete opposite...

Most street fights end up with someone either being jumped, stabbed or shot... Its rare that you see a real street fight between 2 people in which they are both at leisure to duke it out between each other... people these days just dont fight like that...
I see them end more violently and more frequently than these schoolyard or backyard party brawls tossed around on the net...
I see bottles flying...knives gleaming and guns blazing.

You bring up some very good points. This lends itself to the belief that self defense is more a case of survival, then just a walk in the park.