Has MMA surpassed traditional MA in its effectiveness

[Bruno@MT]

When I was younger I worked out in the gym 3-4 times per week, about 2 hours per session. I used weights and treadmills, and was in great shape. And then I decided to re-join my old JJ club... it hurt really bad.

Cardio and endurance in a gym are based on continuous actions, not explosive actions. This is a whole diferent ballgame.

 

[still learning]

Hello, MMA fighters...Wrestlers...uses alot of intensity in there fighing stuffs...

To get two idea's on how long you will last...shadow box like you are in a real fight (full power strikes/kicks)...non-stopping, time yourself when exhausted....( one way to see if you have the endurance to last)

Second one is...short high speed burst-running, until exhaust-time yourself
Varietions: step ladders at full speed,increasing the lenghts-bend down at each turn (touch the ground)....

This is where..you will find the difference between MMA..vs ..a typical karate person...

MMA/Wrestles....will go further time lenghts before exhaustions...
------------------------
Did you know....or want to end a fight quickly.....? (instead of groin)
Know your laws and pentlies before actually do this?

Breaking the thumb ....Most people will stop fighting back..
and
Breaking the BIG toe....if you get an opportunity (against a shoeless)....

Study bone breaking.....tarkets/strikes that works/

A good book to read on this? GUGE GONGH- by Master Hei Long (seven primary targets to take anyone out of a fight!) , A Paladin Press book, ISBN 0-87364-635-5

Aloha, we like to break our chicken bones..to get to the marrow..(perfer deep fried first)

 

[century bob]

not even close..

but modern karate, taekwondo etc aren't MARTIAL arts - it's just a sport.

REAL martialartists can easily injure/kill any MMA beef in seconds.

Without doubt.

 

[Tez3]

not even close..

but modern karate, taekwondo etc aren't MARTIAL arts - it's just a sport.

REAL martialartists can easily injure/kill any MMA beef in seconds.

Without doubt.

Not flaming much then.

Beef? Real martial artists? Oh dear oh dear oh dear.

:BSmeter:

 

[oaktree]

not even close..

but modern karate, taekwondo etc aren't MARTIAL arts - it's just a sport.

REAL martialartists can easily injure/kill any MMA beef in seconds.

Without doubt.

The first statement is a blanket statement. Plenty of Karate styles that
are very martial oriented Kyokushin is full contact no bullshi- style.

Also not every one trains in Karate,Taekwondo as a sport but puts their blood and sweat into it just like every other art.

The second statement seems you have a personal disgust with MMA.
I am unsure what you mean by real martial arts. I mean are you refering to some 16th century samurai warrior vs a modern MMA athlete as your comparison? If you can clarify what you mean it might make a more productive conversation.


My personal Opinion is MMA has created new approaches to TMA it as also provided adapations to different settings and as also allowed additions to training. As far as effectivness goes.....in a street fight a tma parries a punch kicks from a cat stance and throws him to the ground follows a textbook kata.

A MMA fighter duck from the punch go for a double leg take down followed by a mount and armbar. Both are effective in neutralizing the attacker and their methods are similar.

 

[Master Dan]

I don't think so. I'm not knocking MMA in anyway. I've trained in Krav Maga and Army Combatives which is similar to BJJ, but I have also trained in both traditional and contemporary Chinese arts. I'm not saying MMA isn't effective in terms of self defense. But I think that any fight that has rules and gear no matter how little, isn't an accurate display of its ability in self defense. There is no small joint manipulation, nor groin strikes in MMA fights.

I also feel that traditional arts bring something MMA and a lot of contemporary arts don't. There is something to be said for being part of a tradition, for learning something that has been passed down for a long time. I personally have a sense of pride in learning traditional CMA from my Sifu. I like that I can trace the lineage of my Hung Gar back to the founder of the system Hung Hei Goon. In addition, MA are constantly evolving. People cross train, add and subtract techniques that work and don't work. I'm no expert by any means, this is simply my opinion on what I am sure is going to be a pretty hot debate.

thank you: you bring up really valid points related to anything that is based in rules does not stand as the true determinate related to self defens on the street. I applaud MMA for its conditioning if was not for the Olympics watering down traditional MA from its true fighting form to meet Olympic standards we would not see all this happening right now.

MMA does not serve the majority of the population especially kids and families with structure and life skills.

What MMA does do is create and event that anyone and more important every single one regardless of what they have and who they are can have a shot at competing at national and world level with out politics. There is far more chance of a person getting a title fight in MMA than the Olympics or even getting on the team.

Sad to say that young kids want to emulate this and are injuring each other in garages and unqualified instructors that want to serve thier own egos training them.

Even worse grown men over 40 who should know better many in corrections and law enforcement while I aplaud them working on conditioning are participating with younger men who have no certification in teach the class are exposing them selves to serious health risks.

I asked the kid teaching or running the class how much experience you got and he said 6 months? then they watch a video and go ooh Ahh and try to use it not realizing for the older guys that manipuation of some areas of the body for over 40 should not be done at all or only 15 minutes in a two week period. Plaque can be released into the blood stream and cause heart or stroke up to 7 years later or sooner.

We have a doctor right hear in town wants to full contact fight all the time with a clot so big he almost died and had to be sent home from work for two weeks still wants to teach kids in his garage.

I hope all the MMA guys screaming for it to be in the Olympics get it. It will be so restricted and watered down it will be to boring to watch.

 

[Tez3]

You get idiots in all walks of life and in all sports.

All of MMA isn't made up of idiots.

All of TMA isn't made up of saints.

Teenagers have been injuring themselves in many sorts of daft ways since the year dot, MMA isn't responsible for this.

There's a good many people in MMA with a great deal of martial arts experience, theres a good many TMA teaching who shouldn't be and vice versa.

Making blanket statements about anything is never a good idea.

Why do people feel they can slag MMA off on here but scream like hell if someone even hints at a criticism of their style?

 

[oaktree]

MMA does not serve the majority of the population especially kids and families with structure and life skills.

Life skills such as. Discipline, friendship, teamwork, problem solving the list goes on. This same arguement was used before that learning TMA would allow people to be violent or had no real life skills. You will find aggressive students in all sports and bad teachers in all sports too welcome to life.

Even worse grown men over 40 who should know better many in corrections and law enforcement while I aplaud them working on conditioning are participating with younger men who have no certification in teach the class are exposing them selves to serious health risks.

Master Dan please don't blame the entire body of MMA for ignortant men who do not 1.get a physical before engaging in physical activites. 2. For not asking a person's creditionals.

I asked the kid teaching or running the class how much experience you got and he said 6 months? then they watch a video and go ooh Ahh and try to use it not realizing for the older guys that manipuation of some areas of the body for over 40 should not be done at all or only 15 minutes in a two week period. Plaque can be released into the blood stream and cause heart or stroke up to 7 years later or sooner.

Are you the same guy who said that if you hit certain pressure points it will release the plaque killing you later on an old thread on pressure points and meridians? If someone who is over 40(hell someone of any age) wants to engage in an activity he should consult his doctor get the ok sign the wavier that he knows the risk lets not blame the teacher because some guy Choses to be there not asking for creditionals or knowing his medical makeup.

We have a doctor right hear in town wants to full contact fight all the time with a clot so big he almost died and had to be sent home from work for two weeks still wants to teach kids in his garage.

So you blame MMA for this? How absurd. This should be a reference that not all Doctors are intelligent in certain areas however to be fair, it could have been a freak accident.

I hope all the MMA guys screaming for it to be in the Olympics get it. It will be so restricted and watered down it will be to boring to watch.

If the people doing it enjoy it and are in agreement with the rules and still do it then who cares? There will be plenty of others doing it differently.

By the way I guess I would be considered a TMA guy actually CMA but I still respect MMA and try to understand were they are coming from.

 

[Sukerkin]

This thread has been far too long for me to read it all to check if this has been said before so I'll steam right in, righteous in my ignorance .

Isn't comparing MMA and TMA falling into the trap of comparing apples and oranges?

TMA's were devised as fighting arts, with the sole purpose of dismantling opponents with as little fuss as possible and taking as little damage yourself as possible in the process.

MMA is a sport, it was designed that way from the get-go and has never pretended to be anything different (discounting those teachers out to make a buck by marketing it as if it was something different).

Why is it a sport? Because, in this day-and-age, you cannot have combative entertainment with rules so lax as to permit the maining and killing of the participants. This is not a bad thing.

Also, neither does it mean that those that take part in MMA are not well honed atheletes or do not have a good grounding in martial arts in general. They simply enjoy getting physically competative with a suitably rules regulated conglomeration of the arts they know. Hence the name, Mixed Martial Arts.

For myself, I don't hold it any worse regard than I do boxing or wrestling. They are all sports 'entertainment' to one degree or another, making use of the violent arts to make money from a paying audience. I confess, I did rather look down on it for a while but discourses with those with more experience with it than I have persuaded me that such a superior 'tude was not warranted and reflected more badly on me than it did on the sport in question.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

not even close..

but modern karate, taekwondo etc aren't MARTIAL arts - it's just a sport.

I will have to ask you to support this assertion with verifiable facts.

REAL martialartists can easily injure/kill any MMA beef in seconds.

Without doubt.

Define a martial artist. What makes one 'real' versus not real?

Can an MMA beef not also be a 'real martial artist' as well? Many have TMA backgrounds (Machita comes to mind, and for those who are laboring under a false premise, BJJ is as traditional an MA as judo).

Your post implies that TMA = real martial artist, so define TMA.

Most MA practiced these days are postwar arts, so how traditional can they actually be? Judo and Shotokan are both prewar arts, but one was developed with sporting intentions and is by its nature not traditional, as its inventor broke with tradition in order to invent it (all those belts were inspired by swimming and the kyu/dan system comes from the game of Go).
The other was streamlined for use in the Japanese school system, with many of its aspects renamed in order to make it more 'Japanese' and adopted the use of a version of the judogi, kyu/dan system, and accompanying belts mentioned above in order to facilitate this.

The gi was not even traditional; it was essentially underwear. Since the tights/trunks worn by MMA are essentially the same thing, does that not make MMA traditional?

Prior to judo, the tradition was to wear a kimono and a hakama, the traditional everyday garments worn by individuals of certain social classes. Kind of like training in a jacket and tie for men or a blouse and below-knee length skirt for women. Maybe we should do that at traditional schools. Women can wear ties now too, so we could adapt all those self defense techniques that involve using a belt with a neck tie. Not only are they easy to remove for combat use (there is a quickdraw-necktie waza that I'd be happy to teach you), but your pants will stay up during the fight.

Finally, saying that a real martial artist can easily injure or kill any MMA beef in seconds is all fine and dandy, but what about MMA vegetarians? Does your assessment still apply?

Daniel

 

[Shifu Steve]

REAL martialartists can easily injure/kill any MMA beef in seconds.

Without doubt.

I've been away from the forum for a few months and when I saw this quote I knew it had been too long. Good stuff. I miss the blanket generalities.

The MMA/TMA debate lives on and I doubt it's going away. The person that started the post may have been a beer or two short of a six pack but he apparently revitalized the issue.

I thought I had some pretty developed ideas around this issue but something recently caused me to pause and reconsider. I was taught in the TMA camp. However, my teacher, who still teaches the traditional way, now helps to develop MMA fighters by adapting his style to sport fighting. Part of this was a sound business decision on his part because of the allure of MMA, however, the main reason (at least in my opinion) is because he had a lot of students interested in sport fighting so rather than have them go train somewhere else he chose to adapt the training.

He recently showed me some of the regimen and I was honestly impressed. The techniques and methods were direct, easy to learn, and appeared effective to me. They were all based on the kata I had learned years ago but were just extrapolated into a different situation (e.g. one with definitive rules). So after I saw the traditional forms I had learned applied in an MMA regimen, it helped me to see that the differences between TMA and MMA could be as minimal or as vast as the chosen training methods.

So to answer the question: No.

 

[Carol]

Why do people feel they can slag MMA off on here but scream like hell if someone even hints at a criticism of their style?

1. Ego

2. Envy