Handgun Disarms

[MJS]

This question was asked on another forum, however, it didn't get as many replies as I thought, so I figured I'd ask here.

The question is as follows:

1) What are some often neglected points when working gun disarms?

2) Did you ever notice any impractical methods of application? If so, explain.

For the sake of discussion, we can use the Parker 'rod' techniques as a base. If there are any Tracy Kenpo and Kaju folks that would like to chime in, please feel free to do so.

 

[l_uk3y]

Possible area of neglected point?!?!

Whilst I have little experience with gun disarms and almost no real life gun experience compared to a lot of you. Our old Wing Chun teacher whom was in the army at one point in his life explained that it isn't just the bullet you need to to worry about. But the Force around it as well (Don't know the word I need)

E.G You move sideways out of the path of a shotgun from point blank. It fires. The shot misses. However unless you get your head infront of the barrels exit then there is a soundwave/air disturbance with enough force to cause concussion.

As I said I can't confirm this. However I would love to hear from those more experienced to confirm or dismiss this.

Luke

 

[LawDog]

The most often over looked part of gun disarms are,
*type of firearm, revolver, semi auto, long gun,
*height of weapon on opponent and you,
*distance from weapon,
*opponents body language, confident vs nervous,
*muzzle flash, extrem high temp's, kept away from eyes, face, burn skin,
*sound, can blow out your ear drums,
*concussion, can destroy your eyes, hearing,
**Instructors with no street experience teaching "in the street" this will happen and that will happen,
** Instructors with little or no knowledge of the weapon.
:ultracool

 

[Drac]

The most often over looked part of gun disarms are,
*type of firearm, revolver, semi auto, long gun,
*height of weapon on opponent and you,
*distance from weapon,
*opponents body language, confident vs nervous,
*muzzle flash, extrem high temp's, kept away from eyes, face, burn skin,
*sound, can blow out your ear drums,
*concussion, can destroy your eyes, hearing,
**Instructors with no street experience teaching "in the street" this will happen and that will happen,
** Instructors with little or no knowledge of the weapon.
:ultracool

What he said..

 

[Carol]

Why is it that martial arts schools teach gun disarms, while making absolutely no attempt to get a student on the range, learning safety, etiquette and live fire?

There are many MA students that have never been around a gun before, yet they are being taught to grapple with it while someone else's finger is on the trigger, leading to a situation where the firearm will discharge inches from their head? That's a dangerous situation even for a trained marksman, is it not?

 

[Shin71]

Why is it that martial arts schools teach gun disarms, while making absolutely no attempt to get a student on the range, learning safety, etiquette and live fire?

There are many MA students that have never been around a gun before, yet they are being taught to grapple with it while someone else's finger is on the trigger, leading to a situation where the firearm will discharge inches from their head? That's a dangerous situation even for a trained marksman, is it not?

Carol makes a good point; but overall keep it simple, get out of the line of fire and if you are in this situation remember that if you do need to go hands on against a gun, ending the threat as fast as possible is your first goal. Now is not the time to hold back and try something fancy.

 

[MJS]

Nice replies so far. Hopefully we can keep this thread going longer than it was, when it was posted by someone else on the KN. LOL!

Anyways...Lawdog made some damn good points, IMHO. In addition, I'd say that taking the other hand into consideration is important as well. When you grab onto the weapon, its possible that a) the badguy isn't going to think you'd do that and try to pull the weapon away, or b) in addition to doing A, use his free hand to strike you.

For me, I like to K.I.S.S.....Keep it Short and Simple. To be honest, I've pretty much abandoned the Kenpo gun techs, mainly due to them not following the principle that I just mentioned....short and simple. Control is my first concern, of course taking into consideration bystanders. From that point, my goal is to go on the offensive. Still maintaining control, using strikes, kicks, knees, elbows, etc. The disarm is not an immediate concern.

 

[MJS]

Why is it that martial arts schools teach gun disarms, while making absolutely no attempt to get a student on the range, learning safety, etiquette and live fire?

There are many MA students that have never been around a gun before, yet they are being taught to grapple with it while someone else's finger is on the trigger, leading to a situation where the firearm will discharge inches from their head? That's a dangerous situation even for a trained marksman, is it not?

Couldn't agree more with this Carol!! Of course, the same thing can be said about so many other things in the system as well.

 

[jks9199]

Why is it that martial arts schools teach gun disarms, while making absolutely no attempt to get a student on the range, learning safety, etiquette and live fire?

There are many MA students that have never been around a gun before, yet they are being taught to grapple with it while someone else's finger is on the trigger, leading to a situation where the firearm will discharge inches from their head? That's a dangerous situation even for a trained marksman, is it not?

A gun disarm is almost by definition a tactic of desperation; it's something you shouldn't even consider unless you think that it's your only way to get out of the situation. Just like there's a good chance any knife disarm may get you cut, there's a good chance that the gun will go off. Primary emphasis needs to be on moving off of the line of fire -- or moving it away from you. Or -- even better -- doing both. The advantage you have with a gun is that bullets only travel in one direction... and you can predict that direction.

Another thing that's very important to remember about gunshot wounds is that they are very often very survivable. Especially if you're anywhere near the emergency medicine facilities of most US cities and populous areas. I'm not suggesting getting shot if you can help it -- but that getting shot shouldn't stop you from fighting! If you can somewhat choose where you get shot, like by deflecting the gun a bit, the odds stack in your favor to survive.

 

[Drac]

Purchase or borrow some AirSoft pistols. We use them in the academy. the slight sting you get from one is a reminder that no firearm disarm is foolproof. Even teaching disarms can be dangerous, we constantly remind the students NOT to have their fingers on the trigger. A finger can suffer some serious damage if the Tori does a quick and violent movement to the Uke.

 

[LawDog]

"Self Defense" by nature is an act of desperation.
*We all should have read the situation prior to it starting so that we would not have to "defend" ourselves. When we "defend" ourselves our opponent will usually have the upper hand from the initial onset. We must then defend untill we can equalize the situation then to eventualy take control of it.
*When you read a situation correctly, after it starts, you will have the option to,
A) run away,
B) defend yourself,
C) if the situation warrants it, you can execute a pre-emptive strike then "attack" instead of "defend".
Your goal is to neither win or lose, it is simple to get home safely.
:ultracool

 

[MJS]

Dont know how many Kenpo gun techs. are floating around online, but I did find this one.

[yt]3yUPqN5l8rw[/yt]

 

[Master Dan]

This question was asked on another forum, however, it didn't get as many replies as I thought, so I figured I'd ask here.

The question is as follows:

1) What are some often neglected points when working gun disarms?

2) Did you ever notice any impractical methods of application? If so, explain.

I went to a related thread called close comabt defense.com I purchased his 3 dvd set his verbal explanation alone was worth it to me realted to Adrenalin drop or as it raltes to true combat experience. I will reserve judgement on techinque after reviewing the DVD's I like his terminolgy and verbalization related to what I already teach. There is a dfference between being taught by people who have fought close quarters life and death many times and survived and those who have only theory and sport. My father Master as you would call your main life long GM was FBI and CIA security force instructor as well as Unarmed combat instructor in Veitnam. He always talked about don't forget your illegal techiques and practice in your mind. He also talked about some of the consultants in thier combat training were ex World War II war criminals which was supprising based on where they came from?

I have always stressed realistic stress tested self defense because real life is real life ugly and visious no rules. You also need to read people and situations because doing nothing, saying exactly
the right thing or moving exactly the right way has either saved my life or at least saved alot of effort and injury.

I very much like Kiysho Jitsu which is small circle fighting and the looking for targets of oportunity all situations are fluid and all people are diffent what works on one may not on another. I have been in those situation where you are sick or just out of surgery and bang there it is right in front of you and you have to deal?

Universal to all is the heart rate and fight or flight issues. I also teach my students by video for decades due to some just to remote to get to and I review thier video and comment now with vidio streaming we can do it live. If these DVD's are good I will definately publish a review.

 

[Drac]

I know I posted this before somewhere on here, but it never hurts to repreat good information. When practicing firearms disarms please insure that EVERY student has his/her own firearm. The repetition of handing a weapon back to the attacker can become ingrained.

There is a TRUE story of the cop that was surprized by an armed suspect. The officer did a great disarm and then HANDED the weapon back to the suspect. The suspect backed away with his hands up as he throught it was a trap in order for the officer to shoot him. Thankfully the officer realized what he was doing and stopped.

 

[jks9199]

I know I posted this before somewhere on here, but it never hurts to repreat good information. When practicing firearms disarms please insure that EVERY student has his/her own firearm. The repetition of handing a weapon back to the attacker can become ingrained.

There is a TRUE story of the cop that was surprized by an armed suspect. The officer did a great disarm and then HANDED the weapon back to the suspect. The suspect backed away with his hands up as he throught it was a trap in order for the officer to shoot him. Thankfully the officer realized what he was doing and stopped.

There're other options -- each repetition isn't over until it's stabilized, and then "broken" and the training gun is either handed over in some awkward manner that you wouldn't replicate on the street or simply dropped for the partner to pick up. Or you can simply trade techniques one-for-one where I disarm you, then you disarm me... repeat.

In fact, you should overlap at least going through the stabilization/break with whatever other technique you'll use. What I mean by stabilize or break is something like this: Drac holds a gun on me, and I disarm him, move to a safe distance, and begin giving appropriate commands like "get on the ground." At that point -- consciously STOP the exercise and reset as needed. (Incidentally, this is something that is good to do in any partner training!)

 

[Chris Parker]

Dont know how many Kenpo gun techs. are floating around online, but I did find this one.

[yt]3yUPqN5l8rw[/yt]

Hey Mike,

First off, I want to make it clear that this is not an appraisal of the system, or even the instructor, simply of the techniques as presented. To begin with, some positive aspects. Well, he moves pretty fast, and once he gets hold of the wrist, he doesn't let it go, so that's good.

On the other hand....

I'm not particularly impressed with these gun defences, or, honestly, the way they appear to be being trained here. To begin with, there is very little in the way of moving his head off the line of fire, and his immediate action (the rising cover with his elbow and forearm) is rather dangerous, in that it allows no real control over the gun-hand. That is then followed with a rather complicated control (involving switching hands, and a fine-motor lock on the elbow and wrist, then turning it back again, changing hands again, and moving into a different control). A bit too difficult under stress, I feel.

When done against a gun to the back of the head, there is even less movement away from the line of fire, with the same raising cover being used, then a sweep down to catch with the second control (again requiring changing of your hands as you go), and finish. In this instance, if he didn't get shot with his first movement, he certainly makes a good attempt of getting his foot or leg shot as he passes the barrel of the gun straight past his own lower body.

Leaving off such things as "... now, I'm going to slap him with his own gun....", let's look at how this is trained here, and see how realistic it is. The set-up, to begin with, is a good enough place to start. Sifu Joseph Simonet is, as he says at the beginning, "just standing there". Now, that's good, actually, as moving from a "posture", as in training, is not very likely in an actual situation. However, even with a gun to the side or back of his head, he still just stands there.... The natural (and expected from the bad-guys side) response to that would be to raise your hands in some sort of "submissive", or surrendering gesture. If I was a gunman, and had my gun pointed at someones' head, and they didn't get their hands up, I'd start to wonder what was going on with them.... and you don't want a gunman starting to worry about you doing something, especially when you're going to do something! Add to this the way he remains calm (not showing any signs of stress in any form, again an expected and normal response). So not a good set-up, psychologically speaking.

The first movement (both against the gun to the side, and behind) involves bringing both arms up in a form of a high cover, but with no movement to get your head out of the line of fire first. As Sifu Joseph is starting with his hands relaxed down at his sides, that actually increases the amount of time it will take to get his cover up, and that actually leaves him more open to being shot. Again, add to that his little telegraphing habit of tensing his shoulders, and he may be in trouble... If he started with his hands up (as above), this may have a much better chance, but he would still be well advised to get his head out of the way first and foremost. The actual movement itself (the rising cover) is also something I wouldn't place huge amounts of trust in, as it knocks the gun-arm to the side (possibly discharging the weapon while it is still very close to your head), while gaining no control over the weapon at all. He waits until the second movement for that, and if the gunman moved or pulled back in response to his sudden action (which would be again natural and normal), his reach for his control isn't really guaranteed. And I'd want something with higher return and lower risk.

The gunman here isn't really helping the reality of the training himself, it must be said. Starting from his set-up, he is standing with his feet evenly, and the gun extended forwards in his right hand. This isn't really realistic, and shows that he doesn't really have experience with a handgun. There is no bracing to the footwork, and no real threat or confidence in his holding of the weapon. When the techniques are applied to him, he simply moves his arm as much as it is pushed, allowing the Sifu to simply keep positioning him as he wants to. Every human being has an inbuilt "flinch" response, and things such as Tony Blauers' SPEAR use that in their approach, but of those that use such understandings in their training, most only think about how that is used in the defensive actions, rather than remembering that it exists in the attacker as well. It is especially important to remember it when dealing with weapon defences, as it comes into play there quite a bit.

As soon as you grab someone's weapon, or even look like you are trying to, they will do what they can to stop you from getting it, and that means pulling back in a lot of cases. And that could have a very bad effect on techniques such as this, as there is no real control straight away, so if the gunman was to pull away as soon as the first movement was telegraphed, you could suddenly find yourself facing a gunman now far more agitated (you'd raised their adrenaline by trying to move), further away, and still with a gun trained on your head. If he went for the control straight away, as the gunman pulled back, you could still keep him in control, and this would be a far safer technique.

These aren't the only issues I'm seeing, but this is getting long as it is, so I'll deal with it in a few bullet points. Here is how we deal with gun defence, and in brackets how I see this example in comparison:

First, get off the line of fire (something that is not done here at all, to my mind).

Second, get control of the weapon and weapon hand (the first action against the gun itself should get control of it, rather than as a one-two action seen here).

Third, keep control and position the weapon in a safe position (Sifu Joseph moves the gun away from himself in the first technique, but passes it past himself on the second. And when controlling it, he is pointing the barrel in many different directions, regardless of who it may be pointing at. For me, I would point the gun at the safest possible place, the ground if I have to, or straight back at them for preference).

Whenever possible, the disarm should end with you in control of the weapon (In both techniques the end had the gun falling to the ground, even closer to the gunman in the first one. Falling and hitting the ground may discharge the weapon, and it being on the ground is leaving control of it up to chance to a great degree, as you both struggle in the ensuing chaos).

Finally, with control of the gun, get distance from the gunman, with the gun aimed at them, in order to discourage them trying the same type of thing on you (Needless to say, that didn't happen once here, and really should be trained every time)!

Obviously, I'm not a Kenpo practitioner, so I hope these comments aren't taken as a critique of the art, as they are in no way intended to be. Just some observations from an outsider.

 

[Drac]

In fact, you should overlap at least going through the stabilization/break with whatever other technique you'll use. What I mean by stabilize or break is something like this: Drac holds a gun on me, and I disarm him, move to a safe distance, and begin giving appropriate commands like "get on the ground." At that point -- consciously STOP the exercise and reset as needed. (Incidentally, this is something that is good to do in any partner training!)

Bravo, well said..Disarm, take down, cuff and stuff..

 

[jks9199]

Bravo, well said..Disarm, take down, cuff and stuff..

Or, if it's a more civilian oriented self-defense -- disarm, control the weapon, and escape! Yes, you can practice making the first step or two of an escape, too. Or holding the person at gunpoint and calling for the cops...

 

[Bruno@MT]

To add something to Chris' post, I am going to say that there is no reason at all to switch from onikudaki (the figure 4) to something else that involves a lot of 'handling'. onikudaki is a perfect example of a good lock: it can be applied using only gross motor skills, it is painful and damaging, the gun is already pointing down...

From there you can go straight to the ground while keeping the gun pointed away from you. Imo you don't go horsing around to prove to everyone just how good a technician you are.

 

[MJS]

Hey Mike,

First off, I want to make it clear that this is not an appraisal of the system, or even the instructor, simply of the techniques as presented. To begin with, some positive aspects. Well, he moves pretty fast, and once he gets hold of the wrist, he doesn't let it go, so that's good.

On the other hand....

I'm not particularly impressed with these gun defences, or, honestly, the way they appear to be being trained here. To begin with, there is very little in the way of moving his head off the line of fire, and his immediate action (the rising cover with his elbow and forearm) is rather dangerous, in that it allows no real control over the gun-hand. That is then followed with a rather complicated control (involving switching hands, and a fine-motor lock on the elbow and wrist, then turning it back again, changing hands again, and moving into a different control). A bit too difficult under stress, I feel.

When done against a gun to the back of the head, there is even less movement away from the line of fire, with the same raising cover being used, then a sweep down to catch with the second control (again requiring changing of your hands as you go), and finish. In this instance, if he didn't get shot with his first movement, he certainly makes a good attempt of getting his foot or leg shot as he passes the barrel of the gun straight past his own lower body.

Leaving off such things as "... now, I'm going to slap him with his own gun....", let's look at how this is trained here, and see how realistic it is. The set-up, to begin with, is a good enough place to start. Sifu Joseph Simonet is, as he says at the beginning, "just standing there". Now, that's good, actually, as moving from a "posture", as in training, is not very likely in an actual situation. However, even with a gun to the side or back of his head, he still just stands there.... The natural (and expected from the bad-guys side) response to that would be to raise your hands in some sort of "submissive", or surrendering gesture. If I was a gunman, and had my gun pointed at someones' head, and they didn't get their hands up, I'd start to wonder what was going on with them.... and you don't want a gunman starting to worry about you doing something, especially when you're going to do something! Add to this the way he remains calm (not showing any signs of stress in any form, again an expected and normal response). So not a good set-up, psychologically speaking.

The first movement (both against the gun to the side, and behind) involves bringing both arms up in a form of a high cover, but with no movement to get your head out of the line of fire first. As Sifu Joseph is starting with his hands relaxed down at his sides, that actually increases the amount of time it will take to get his cover up, and that actually leaves him more open to being shot. Again, add to that his little telegraphing habit of tensing his shoulders, and he may be in trouble... If he started with his hands up (as above), this may have a much better chance, but he would still be well advised to get his head out of the way first and foremost. The actual movement itself (the rising cover) is also something I wouldn't place huge amounts of trust in, as it knocks the gun-arm to the side (possibly discharging the weapon while it is still very close to your head), while gaining no control over the weapon at all. He waits until the second movement for that, and if the gunman moved or pulled back in response to his sudden action (which would be again natural and normal), his reach for his control isn't really guaranteed. And I'd want something with higher return and lower risk.

The gunman here isn't really helping the reality of the training himself, it must be said. Starting from his set-up, he is standing with his feet evenly, and the gun extended forwards in his right hand. This isn't really realistic, and shows that he doesn't really have experience with a handgun. There is no bracing to the footwork, and no real threat or confidence in his holding of the weapon. When the techniques are applied to him, he simply moves his arm as much as it is pushed, allowing the Sifu to simply keep positioning him as he wants to. Every human being has an inbuilt "flinch" response, and things such as Tony Blauers' SPEAR use that in their approach, but of those that use such understandings in their training, most only think about how that is used in the defensive actions, rather than remembering that it exists in the attacker as well. It is especially important to remember it when dealing with weapon defences, as it comes into play there quite a bit.

As soon as you grab someone's weapon, or even look like you are trying to, they will do what they can to stop you from getting it, and that means pulling back in a lot of cases. And that could have a very bad effect on techniques such as this, as there is no real control straight away, so if the gunman was to pull away as soon as the first movement was telegraphed, you could suddenly find yourself facing a gunman now far more agitated (you'd raised their adrenaline by trying to move), further away, and still with a gun trained on your head. If he went for the control straight away, as the gunman pulled back, you could still keep him in control, and this would be a far safer technique.

These aren't the only issues I'm seeing, but this is getting long as it is, so I'll deal with it in a few bullet points. Here is how we deal with gun defence, and in brackets how I see this example in comparison:

First, get off the line of fire (something that is not done here at all, to my mind).

Second, get control of the weapon and weapon hand (the first action against the gun itself should get control of it, rather than as a one-two action seen here).

Third, keep control and position the weapon in a safe position (Sifu Joseph moves the gun away from himself in the first technique, but passes it past himself on the second. And when controlling it, he is pointing the barrel in many different directions, regardless of who it may be pointing at. For me, I would point the gun at the safest possible place, the ground if I have to, or straight back at them for preference).

Whenever possible, the disarm should end with you in control of the weapon (In both techniques the end had the gun falling to the ground, even closer to the gunman in the first one. Falling and hitting the ground may discharge the weapon, and it being on the ground is leaving control of it up to chance to a great degree, as you both struggle in the ensuing chaos).

Finally, with control of the gun, get distance from the gunman, with the gun aimed at them, in order to discourage them trying the same type of thing on you (Needless to say, that didn't happen once here, and really should be trained every time)!

Obviously, I'm not a Kenpo practitioner, so I hope these comments aren't taken as a critique of the art, as they are in no way intended to be. Just some observations from an outsider.

Hey Chris,

Sorry I didn't get back to ya sooner. Anyways....we've talked about this before, so you know my thoughts on gun techs. And by all means, your opinion is always welcome. I dont limit my discussions to art specific people. You made some good points and I agree. Personally, I didn't think there was much movement to remove yourself from the line of fire, in this clip. Personally, I like to incorporate my moving myself out of the line of fire, redirecting the weapon, and control of the weapon, as 1 move if possible. I wasn't seeing that here, but again, I could be missing something he's trying to get across in this clip. For what its worth, I dont know if this is a typical Tracy gun tech. or something else.

I also feel that taking others into consideration is important. I'd hate to end up taking out a bystander during the course of my disarm, thus the reason why I've made changes to what I do.

Good discussion as always.

Hopefully a Tracy member or 2, will chime in as well to lend some clarification.