Fighting Multiples: A Possibility or A Fantasy?
- Thread starter MJS
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kidswarrior
Senior Master
OK, here's a sea story from long ago.
There once was a boxer turned decent street fighter, who found himself in a verbal confrontation with another guy...who suddenly became two guys...who then morphed into four guys. The first of the four--the true aggressor--suddenly swung for the fence with an overhand right, which the lone defender blocked and returned fire. The other three 'attackers' were so shocked, evidently at the speed and level of violence of the incident, and certainly the fact that the single defender so quickly turned the tables (must have given them pause--even if it was a luck), that they stood frozen to the spot.
Bystanders broke it up (as was the norm in those days), and that was that. Point is, it was never four against one. It was always one on one, or maybe two if the follower had seen his friend draw some blood. But once the leader got rocked, it was all over but the shoutin'.
There once was a boxer turned decent street fighter, who found himself in a verbal confrontation with another guy...who suddenly became two guys...who then morphed into four guys. The first of the four--the true aggressor--suddenly swung for the fence with an overhand right, which the lone defender blocked and returned fire. The other three 'attackers' were so shocked, evidently at the speed and level of violence of the incident, and certainly the fact that the single defender so quickly turned the tables (must have given them pause--even if it was a luck), that they stood frozen to the spot.
Bystanders broke it up (as was the norm in those days), and that was that. Point is, it was never four against one. It was always one on one, or maybe two if the follower had seen his friend draw some blood. But once the leader got rocked, it was all over but the shoutin'.
So because there are so solid answers in BJJ, its assumed that nobody else has an answer? So pretty much if more than one person is involved, you're saying the defender should just shrivel into a ball, and accept a beating, because there is nothing he can do? Sorry, I don't buy it.
Great replies everyone! Thanks!
I agree with alot of what was said. Of course, getting away from the situation, running, etc. is always a good option, but if its not available, I'd think that you should have a plan B. The techniques are a base to build off of, but of course, running thru drills with multiples is going to help.
As some have mentioned, things such as the cross/cover. Not a tech. per se, but its still something that creates space. The katas are another tool, and of course, various parts that involve multiples should be extracted and worked live. I like the idea of stacking the opponents in an effort to use one as a shield. Of course, if its possible to get ahold of one, not only using him as a shield against others, and while doing that, punishing him, well, that in itself could be a good deterrant against the others.
In addition to our empty hand skills, I'm in favor of picking up something to use as an equalizer. The odds are already stacked against us, so picking up something to use as a weapon could increase the odds for us. A stick, chair, ashtray, a rock...anything.
I agree with alot of what was said. Of course, getting away from the situation, running, etc. is always a good option, but if its not available, I'd think that you should have a plan B. The techniques are a base to build off of, but of course, running thru drills with multiples is going to help.
As some have mentioned, things such as the cross/cover. Not a tech. per se, but its still something that creates space. The katas are another tool, and of course, various parts that involve multiples should be extracted and worked live. I like the idea of stacking the opponents in an effort to use one as a shield. Of course, if its possible to get ahold of one, not only using him as a shield against others, and while doing that, punishing him, well, that in itself could be a good deterrant against the others.
In addition to our empty hand skills, I'm in favor of picking up something to use as an equalizer. The odds are already stacked against us, so picking up something to use as a weapon could increase the odds for us. A stick, chair, ashtray, a rock...anything.
One thing I learned from the second time I got jumped was to get inside their heads. The first time I got jumped, I crawled away. The second time, I fought like a demon, and walked away. Every time they tried to give chase I chased them right back, and they fled.
zDom
Senior Master
Bod, you can't be serious.
Unlike Brazil, where the culture, evidently, loves the "mano y mano" one-on-one fight, in Southeast Missouri almost every single time I've had to mix it up, both before and after training martial arts, it has been against multiple attackers. Several times before, several times after.
I've always done pretty well (or been lucky), even before martial arts. Since training, I have always come out unharmed while my attackers did NOT come out unharmed.
I hope the Kenpo folk don't mind me chiming in here, but to confirm some of what already has been mentioned, my experiences have shown me that:
• Most who attack as a group really don't know how to fight. Few will have their act together enough to all rush at the same time. Most will patiently wait for their turn to attack
But don't depend on it. It is best to get out of the situation before they figure out how to really use their numerical advantage.• Depending on the locale (small room? outside? large room?) there is a limit on how many can get to you at one time.
• "Stacking" is GOOD. At the very least, don't let someone work their way around to your back. Even the biggest idiot realizes that jumping on you from behind is a low-risk/high reward attack.
• If you hurt one really bad, the rest will very often lose their taste for the fight and be more hesitant to attack — but not always. Sometimes it will actually make them more resolved and suddenly realize they need to rush in as a group.
• Be aggressive: do NOT wait around to "counter" an incoming attack. ATTACK the most immediate threat. Quickly switching targets DOES work — and very well. One or two strikes and then look for the next threat. If you stay on one target too long ("target fixation" they call it air combat
), it doesn't take another attacker long to figure out they can get you while you aren't looking.By switching targets rapidly, you often catch them by surprise — you can often be hitting them as they are deciding to attack you, catching them wide open (all their thoughts being on attack instead of defense, I guess).
• Do NOT target fixate in an attempt to "finish" one of the targets. And do NOT stop to make sure one of your targets is "all right" after dealing with them. An attack by multiple targets can be LETHAL (even if they aren't TRYING to kill you, they could end up doing so by accident by getting caught up in a frenzy), and it is my understanding an attack by multiple attackers is or can be considered a lethal attack under the law.
I'm not saying you should try to kill anyone; but don't stop to worry about if you have hurt someone really bad until YOU are safe. Then call an ambulance for your attackers and the police if the cops haven't already arrived. DO call the police. Being attacked by multiple attackers is serious stuff.
Something to consider: when the cops arrive, you are going to have (at least!) one BIG problem:
Assuming you are good and lucky enough to come out on top, the next problem is: They are going to have more "witnesses."
Expect them to say, "He started it!" and end up going to the cop-shop while they sort out the facts.
The GOOD news is: they won't have had the time to work out a story, so chances are they will expose themselves as liars during the interview. Stick to THE TRUTH — cops are pretty good about detecting lies.
kidswarrior
Senior Master
Too soon to rep you again, so I'll say it here: A top-notch response, with the clear ring of truth. I'd love to see this expanded just slightly and posted here on MT as an article.Bod, you can't be serious.
Unlike Brazil, where the culture, evidently, loves the "mano y mano" one-on-one fight, in Southeast Missouri almost every single time I've had to mix it up, both before and after training martial arts, it has been against multiple attackers. Several times before, several times after.
I've always done pretty well (or been lucky), even before martial arts. Since training, I have always come out unharmed while my attackers did NOT come out unharmed.
I hope the Kenpo folk don't mind me chiming in here, but to confirm some of what already has been mentioned, my experiences have shown me that:
Ā Most who attack as a group really don't know how to fight. Few will have their act together enough to all rush at the same time. Most will patiently wait for their turn to attack
Ā Depending on the locale (small room? outside? large room?) there is a limit on how many can get to you at one time.
Ā "Stacking" is GOOD. At the very least, don't let someone work their way around to your back. Even the biggest idiot realizes that jumping on you from behind is a low-risk/high reward attack.
Ā If you hurt one really bad, the rest will very often lose their taste for the fight and be more hesitant to attack Ā but not always. Sometimes it will actually make them more resolved and suddenly realize they need to rush in as a group.
Ā Be aggressive: do NOT wait around to "counter" an incoming attack. ATTACK the most immediate threat. Quickly switching targets DOES work Ā and very well. One or two strikes and then look for the next threat. If you stay on one target too long ("target fixation" they call it air combat
By switching targets rapidly, you often catch them by surprise Ā you can often be hitting them as they are deciding to attack you, catching them wide open (all their thoughts being on attack instead of defense, I guess).
Ā Do NOT target fixate in an attempt to "finish" one of the targets. And do NOT stop to make sure one of your targets is "all right" after dealing with them. An attack by multiple targets can be LETHAL (even if they aren't TRYING to kill you, they could end up doing so by accident by getting caught up in a frenzy), and it is my understanding an attack by multiple attackers is or can be considered a lethal attack under the law.
I'm not saying you should try to kill anyone; but don't stop to worry about if you have hurt someone really bad until YOU are safe. Then call an ambulance for your attackers and the police if the cops haven't already arrived. DO call the police. Being attacked by multiple attackers is serious stuff.
Something to consider: when the cops arrive, you are going to have (at least!) one BIG problem:
Assuming you are good and lucky enough to come out on top, the next problem is: They are going to have more "witnesses."
Expect them to say, "He started it!" and end up going to the cop-shop while they sort out the facts.
The GOOD news is: they won't have had the time to work out a story, so chances are they will expose themselves as liars during the interview. Stick to THE TRUTH Ā cops are pretty good about detecting lies.
Multiple opponent training is a skill and discipline that comes with lots of practice, it is not impossible. It is a process; you can't train for individual (one on one) defense and then the next minute train for multiple opponent attacks.
At a basic level you should train to always keep your eye on the opponent, to focus on shoulder and hip movement so to react to his attack. Drills would include single opponent self-defense
At an intermediate level your peripheral vision should be at 180 degrees and upon working your single opponent techniques you should have a cover out that faces both the front wall and the rear so that 360 degrees are covered but without any movement of your feet just a rotation over the upper body.
At this level 2-3 multiple opponent sparring would be included to train an individual to use positioning, confusion, and footwork to his advantage.
At an advanced level your vision should be beyond 180 degrees and now you can start learning multiple opponent techniques, the theory of "no mind" should be adapted and there is no one focus point just reaction, your cover out should include one or several steps towards a position of advantage. At this level you should be training with 4-6 individuals focusing on quick and precise evasive movements and counter attacks.
Defending yourself from multiple attacks is as defending yourself against a gun attack.
You wouldn't want to find yourself in either scenario, but it would be idiotic to not prepare yourself for either or, and even though defending yourself against either scenario ,ay seem impossible there are certain advantages that can be employed.
At a basic level you should train to always keep your eye on the opponent, to focus on shoulder and hip movement so to react to his attack. Drills would include single opponent self-defense
At an intermediate level your peripheral vision should be at 180 degrees and upon working your single opponent techniques you should have a cover out that faces both the front wall and the rear so that 360 degrees are covered but without any movement of your feet just a rotation over the upper body.
At this level 2-3 multiple opponent sparring would be included to train an individual to use positioning, confusion, and footwork to his advantage.
At an advanced level your vision should be beyond 180 degrees and now you can start learning multiple opponent techniques, the theory of "no mind" should be adapted and there is no one focus point just reaction, your cover out should include one or several steps towards a position of advantage. At this level you should be training with 4-6 individuals focusing on quick and precise evasive movements and counter attacks.
Defending yourself from multiple attacks is as defending yourself against a gun attack.
You wouldn't want to find yourself in either scenario, but it would be idiotic to not prepare yourself for either or, and even though defending yourself against either scenario ,ay seem impossible there are certain advantages that can be employed.
punisher73
Senior Master
Just to add on to that. Rickson did an interview many years ago and even said that in America he would fight standing up. He said that the fight culture here was very different and you had to worry about others getting involved and would be dangerous on the ground. He also made mention of carrying a gun here.
I have heard people say this about other skill sets as well, just because YOU can't do something, doesn't mean it can't be done.
Hyper_Shadow
Green Belt
Amen to that. People are always gonna be coming up with new and trickier ways to hurt and exploit other peoples weaknesses. So we as martial artists have to be one step ahead of the game and mould our individual skillsets to tackle these occurences.
zDom
Senior Master
I am now basking in what appears to me to be the glow of vindication
I long ago stated (probably multiple times) that BJJ was something that works well in the mano-y-mano culture of Brazil but here in Southeast Missouri just isn't the best option as here it is a culture in which it is not a matter of IF your opponents will jump in, but WHEN.
I would love to have the transcript or vid clip of Rickson saying this.
Also wondering WHEN he said this: before or after me
kidswarrior
Senior Master
I'm sure he lifted it from you, verbatimAlso wondering WHEN he said this: before or after me
I am now basking in what appears to me to be the glow of vindication
I long ago stated (probably multiple times) that BJJ was something that works well in the mano-y-mano culture of Brazil but here in Southeast Missouri just isn't the best option as here it is a culture in which it is not a matter of IF your opponents will jump in, but WHEN.
I would love to have the transcript or vid clip of Rickson saying this.
Also wondering WHEN he said this: before or after me
Back in the 90's when I was writing for "Inside Kung Fu's" theme magazines, I did several articles with Reylson Gracie. Reylson is a 9th degree and son of Gracie jiu jitsu founder, Carlos Gracie.
One of the things that Inside Kung Fu liked to do at the time was articles called "Comparable Styles". In these articles they would take 1 attack, and show how 5 or 6 differant stylists would defend against the attack.
I had written several of these articles and included Reylson and his Gracie jiu jitsu. When it came time to do one versus multiple attackers, I asked Reylson again to participate. He respectfully declined, and explained to me that Gracie jiu jutsu was not really suited to fighting multiple attackers. And that he would be a "charlaton" if he was to pose some pictures in a magazine claiming they were defenses against multiple attackers.
He went on to tell me that in his society it was considered very unmanly to not fight 1 on 1, or mano e mano.
He said that the only time several drunk guys tried to attack him, he threw the first guy hard to the pavement with a shoulder throw. The guy screamed, and the others ran away. He said if they hadn't run away, he probably would have gotten beaten up pretty bad.
I am now basking in what appears to me to be the glow of vindication
I long ago stated (probably multiple times) that BJJ was something that works well in the mano-y-mano culture of Brazil but here in Southeast Missouri just isn't the best option as here it is a culture in which it is not a matter of IF your opponents will jump in, but WHEN.
I would love to have the transcript or vid clip of Rickson saying this.
Also wondering WHEN he said this: before or after me
Good points in these 2 posts. Now, I will admit that they (The Gracies) have opened the eyes of many, with the importance of having some ground work in your toolbox. Now, just because we have empty hand techs. in the Kenpo system for multiples, doesn't mean that we're always going to have luck with them, and we certainly need to train situations like this on a regular basis. However, at least the Kenpo system is offering a possible solution. We have a grappling system that advertises the ultimate in SD, but have 2 high ranking BJJ Black Belts saying that the system fails in that area, yet you still have diehards who claim that its a fantasy and running is the answer. I think we've seen proof that it isn't a fantasy, and what if you can't run? Crumble up in a ball and die? Again, at least the Kenpo systems offer some possible solution.
marlon
Master Black Belt
any possiblity of a link to the original article or at least the issue #?
Respectfully,
Marlon
Well the articles Reylson declined to be in was "2 Against 1, What To Do When Your Outnumbered". "Inside Kung Fu Presents- Secrets of the Masters" December 1995. 2 man defenses were demonstrated by instructors of: Shorinji Kempo, Wing Chun, Hop Do Sool, Kung Fun San Soo, and American Kenpo.
Lots of good points highlighting the superiority of kenpo (or other stand-up styles) vs. bjj in this scenario. All good and fine. But... would the scenario change if... horror of horrors.. you ended up on the ground w/ multiple opponents ? Maybe someone holding you down or on top of you, someone else trying twist an ankle, someone kicking? I think bjj might be a little better in that instance.
kidswarrior
Senior Master
Well, this is in the Kenpo/Kempo area, so don't want to derail the discussion. But John Bishop mentioned Kung Fu San Soo in passing, and I'd like to say I've seen/practiced quite a few scenarios in KFSS against multiples on the ground that appeared pretty effective. Never had to try them outside the training hall, though, so couldn't say first hand. But my point is, BJJ is not the only way to fight on the ground, nor is it the only art to supplement Ken/mpo with, in my mind.
Danjo
Master Black Belt
You mean fighting for position and then submission? The Gracies don't try to argue that BJJ is good for fighting multiple opponents. Their claim is that no art is good for fighting multiple opponents. As we've seen, this is not quite true.
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