Stick/Club Disarms

[BLACK LION]

Well, lets look at the 3 weapons. If I were to take a shot to the chest, a stab or slash to the chest or a hit across the chest with the stick, the one thats probably going to cause the least amount of injury is going to be the stick. Still, regardless of the injury that each of the weapons cause, I want to minimize as much damage as possible.

I see what you're saying...the object itself is harmless, its the person using it that will cause you the harm. While that may be the case, I dont want to disregard the weapon all together. As I have said before, there is nothing that says we cant control the weapon, while at the same time, attacking the person using it. Don't mistake the word 'control' to mean that is all I'm focusing on. I'm not going to just latch onto the stick and try to pull it from the guys hands. No, I'm going to control that stick, control him, and strike.



The tip of the stick is where the majoirty of power is going to be. Once I get inside, I'm in a good position to begin my defense.

Both of our goals are to defend ourselves and take the person out. The major difference is that I favor to control and strike, as Brian said in his post, while you prefer to disregard the weapon and just work for attacking the person. Another difference is that by controlling, I'm taking that weapon out of play. Not controlling, still leaves him wide open to continue to hit me.

Your approach makes sense to me and I understand what you mean by control. No there is nothing that says you cant hold the tool arm/ hand while beating them to nonfunctionality. Its a more esoteric approach but not as much as attempting some sort of disarm or grappling with the tool. Your reference to the knife at the throat with the back against the wall in the other thread is an instance in which a simultaneous strike to the tool arm/hand and to a target is an example of what I think you are conveying by control.
I could be wrong.

 

[BLACK LION]

"As I've said before, anyone is free to do what they want. I"ve grown up in my training, with control stressed all the time. I suppose, in the end, what matters, is that we go home safe. "

A very good point.

 

[geezer]

...Once I get my hand on that stick, my mental philosophy is that it's my stick, and he's trying to disarm me. I change my mindset to weapon retention!

Interesting. The escrima master I referenced earlier advocated the exact opposite. If your stick got grabbed hard and tied up, he'd release it without losing a beat and transition to an empty hands strike. (He had boxing experience and had trained Kadena de Mano under the late Maximo Sarmiento.) His attitude was that the stick is just a stick. You are the weapon. It's all in your state of mind.

Actually, as I write that phrase, "It's all in your state of mind" it occurs to me that you and he may be doing opposite actions, but in a deeper sense are working from the same place... a fighting mentality. Hmmmm.

 

[MJS]

Interesting. The escrima master I referenced earlier advocated the exact opposite. If your stick got grabbed hard and tied up, he'd release it without losing a beat and transition to an empty hands strike. (He had boxing experience and had trained Kadena de Mano under the late Maximo Sarmiento.) His attitude was that the stick is just a stick. You are the weapon. It's all in your state of mind.

Actually, as I write that phrase, "It's all in your state of mind" it occurs to me that you and he may be doing opposite actions, but in a deeper sense are working from the same place... a fighting mentality. Hmmmm.

Well, I can understand that line of thinking to a point...I mean, simply letting go and hitting empty hand does make sense. However, I've now just sacrificed my weapon to the badguy.

Fortunately in my Arnis training, we cover other options aside from just letting go.

 

[MJS]

Your approach makes sense to me and I understand what you mean by control. No there is nothing that says you cant hold the tool arm/ hand while beating them to nonfunctionality. Its a more esoteric approach but not as much as attempting some sort of disarm or grappling with the tool. Your reference to the knife at the throat with the back against the wall in the other thread is an instance in which a simultaneous strike to the tool arm/hand and to a target is an example of what I think you are conveying by control.
I could be wrong.

Well, as I said, that is what I've been taught since I've been training in Kenpo and Arnis. Not sure if you checked out the clips that I posted but that same method I'm using is in those as well.

Now, this is not to say that my method is the best. If someone wants to do something else, thats fine. As for the knife to the throat...I'll comment in that thread shortly, but, yes, in that case, I want to control/strike and work from there.

 

[K-man]

I am very disinclined to maintain the notion that I will most likely get whacked. It is an inherent risk and one that I train to minimize to the greatest degree possible. Unlike the knife and the gun, I have a much better chance of negating that risk against a single stick wielding opponent. Against multiple stick (or crowbar or baseball bat) wielding opponents, I am inclined to beat a hasty retreat. If that is not possible, go for a quick disarm on one of them and use my other techniques to keep the others off of me long enough to then arm myself. If nothing else, having an object would be helpful for parries.

Being a kendoka, I am very familiar with sticks roughly the same length as a baseball bat. As a nito ryu practitioner, I am also familiar with the use of a stick the size of a nightstick. We also train regularly to deal with stick wielding foes while ourselves unarmed.

I had mentioned my wrist break/disarm earlier, but that can also be modified to a leg sweep/disarm as well, keeping you up and the attacker on the ground, perhaps with your foot in his trachea.


You are spot on here. One of the most difficult things for people unfamiliar with armed combat is to not focus all of their attention on the weapon.

I decided after reading this thread to try some stick attacks at training last night. I gave the guys helmets and used a padded stick. The idea was for them to avoid getting belted and disable the attacker. It was interesting to observe the attack. I asked them to attack as if they really meant to cause damage. The guys attacked at a slow pace which would have been easy to counter or disarm, even though I had instructed them to attack at full pace. After I took the stick and belted them around the ears a few times the message was learned. Now, with a full speed attack no-one could catch the stick. They had to come inside the strike and take on the attacker. Once they got inside the attacker's guard the disarm was easy. As Daniel said, the focus is not on the weapon. That looks after itself once you take out the attacker. Even so, I reckon about a third of the blows landed, even if they were partially stopped. Everyone enjoyed they experience so we'll try it again and see if we can reduce the number of times we get hit.

 

[MJS]

I decided after reading this thread to try some stick attacks at training last night. I gave the guys helmets and used a padded stick. The idea was for them to avoid getting belted and disable the attacker. It was interesting to observe the attack. I asked them to attack as if they really meant to cause damage. The guys attacked at a slow pace which would have been easy to counter or disarm, even though I had instructed them to attack at full pace. After I took the stick and belted them around the ears a few times the message was learned. Now, with a full speed attack no-one could catch the stick. They had to come inside the strike and take on the attacker. Once they got inside the attacker's guard the disarm was easy. As Daniel said, the focus is not on the weapon. That looks after itself once you take out the attacker. Even so, I reckon about a third of the blows landed, even if they were partially stopped. Everyone enjoyed they experience so we'll try it again and see if we can reduce the number of times we get hit.

Difference is, is that I'm not trying to 'catch' the stick. If you watch that KM clip I posted, you should see some pretty good example of what I'm talking about, as well as in the Control thread. So, yes, it seems like we're pretty much on the same page...at least I think so. As I said in that other thread, I'm moving in, if possible, which will serve as a shock to them as I slam into them. Pretty much all of the stick techs. that I do, either from Kenpo or Arnis, have me moving in. I'm not trying to catch the stick...I dont have to, because its coming to me.

 

[sgtmac_46]

It's probably been said, but understanding the nature of the weapon we see that the stick is different than the blade. What works on the blade will work on the stick, but NOT necessarily vice versa. Aside from some stick grappling techniques, the stick needs distance to generate damage.....the further out on the end of the sticks arc, the greater then power. Getting inside that power arc is where the safety zone is.

In essence, the stick gives a far greater zone of safety that a gun or knife. The gun is lethal from muzzle out to range. The knife is lethal from extreme close range out to the end of the blade.

The stick is most dangerous at the last few inches of the stick on the end of the arc of the swing.......if we stay beyond the tip of the stick we are safe, if we can enter past the power portion of the arc we are relatively safe (aside from punyos hits and stick grappling, which can be negated with our own grappling).

So the real trick in disarming the club comes in getting from outside of the arc to inside without meeting the power........several variables entering in to that equation.....

The length of the weapon/reach of the opponent
The weight of the weapon
The specific way in which the weapon is being swung
The commitment of the opponent
The opponents attack style

There are some situations where it is better to force the attack, where the opponent hesitates, and crash on in.

In other situations the opponent is swinging aggressively with the weapon, in which case timing his strike is necessary, and crashing in between strikes.

With a more skilled opponent it may be necessary to apply a feint or in order to counter from the strike.

Again, once inside the weapon, it is necessary to aggressively attack the opponent to the eliminate the threat using in-fighting strikes and grappling skills.......allowing the opponent to disengage with his weapon will allow him to apply a strike on the disengagement.......maintaining the distance until he is disarmed or incapacitated is paramount.



The important part to remember is that a stick is NOT a knife or a gun, despite it's potential to do damage, we can take considerable stick damage, if we learn how to absorb and deflect those blows, and not take them flush.....avoiding blows to the head and bony protrusions and taking blows at angles on meaty parts of the body......not so knife or gun. So the stick is a weapon of advantage, but not so insurmountable as a knife or gun.

 

[arnisador]

So the stick is a weapon of advantage, but not so insurmountable as a knife

I dunno...a baseball bat can do a lot of damage.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I dunno...a baseball bat can do a lot of damage.

It can......but I once watched a high school fight where a baseball bat wielding attacker was trading swing for blow with an unarmed opponent, and was being backed up every punch, until he finally lost the bat and took a serious beating.......this after smacking his opponent four or five times in the head with (what looked and sounded like) good powerful swings.

I've seen several occasions where guys got their heads split open by baseball bats, but never lost consciousness or physical ability to fight back.

Tough guys CAN take serious blows from a club...especially if the know how to angle out and take those blows on thick, meaty parts of the body.....not so a blade.



The big issue, however, is that it requires commitment to use a baseball bat effectively........a man with a knife can kill you accidentally if you try to take it away from him.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I dunno...a baseball bat can do a lot of damage.

It can. It can kill you too. But you have a lot more options against a bat than you do against a gun or a blade.

You do have the ability to deflect the bat, particularly if you can do so against an area closer to the grip. As the bat is point heavy in its weight, most of its force and inertia are in the end. Yes, it will likely hurt, but to deflect a knife is more difficult, as it is smaller and faster, and of course, edged, and you cannot perform such deflections against a bullet period.

The big issue with the bat is that it will can do serious injury to your bone mass, while a knife generally cannot. If someone stabs or you in the head, it is more likely to cause damage to the scalp and potentially cut some serious arteries, depending on where the cut occurs, than it is to actually break the bone of the skull (though I know that that is still a possiblilty with enough force behind it).

The biggest danger from a bat is damage to knees, ankles, elbows, wrist/forearm, hips, colarbone, head and neck. The bat can kill your mobility and/or ability to fight more quickly and from a greater distance than the knife.

Daniel

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

A good hardwood stick like Kamagong will do tremendous and I mean tremendous damage. (bone breaking) I would not advocate not addressing it. A rattan stick quite a bit less. Actually a lot less. Padded sticks in training well it is good training but not the same thing as dealing with a hardwood stick. (absolutely not the same thing) Also a professional or someone well trained will immediately start butting with the end of the stick closest to the hand once it get's close and those can deliver massive damage as well. (think end of stick to head, eye socket, etc.) More than likely if you are only striking then your opponent will also get some licks in as well. Hence why most people feel that you need to engage at the appropriate time, angle, etc. whether coming in before an attack or following an attack and then manage or control their ability to continue attacking while you strike and if you are fortunate get a disarm.

 

[BLACK LION]

Good post Sgt.

The stick differs from the blade in terms of the damage in that you can break bone and do damage pretty much in general on the body with a bludgeoning tool . You can get direct access to the brain by whacking the skull with sufficient force or repeated blows. You dont necessarily have to hit a specific target to create injury. It can also be done from a non-intimate distance. Death most likely results from blunt force trauma .


The knife on the other hand needs to perforate arteries and you have to penetrate deep, dig and saw to get them. Distance has to be intimate meaning you are right on top of them thrusting and hacking away. Stabbing major organs wont ensure a kill. most often the target is an aorta or major artery. Hemorrhage and desanguination are the results of the injuries. Death most often results from exsanguination.

both are messy.


I think free fighting with the tools is the best way to find whats practical in actuality. Training to strike them with the tools and training to strike them when they are holding the tool. Go slow and make sure you are getting to that target and smashing it or you wont get the results that ensure success. It takes a good, open training partner as well to help model success.

That is good you went out and trained like that with the sticks. thanks for sharing that K-MAN.

I can see control genralized as an understanding of the tool in relation to his brain and body or targets and yours.

 

[sgtmac_46]

A good hardwood stick like Kamagong will do tremendous and I mean tremendous damage. (bone breaking) I would not advocate not addressing it. A rattan stick quite a bit less. Actually a lot less. Padded sticks in training well it is good training but not the same thing as dealing with a hardwood stick. (absolutely not the same thing) Also a professional or someone well trained will immediately start butting with the end of the stick closest to the hand once it get's close and those can deliver massive damage as well. (think end of stick to head, eye socket, etc.) More than likely if you are only striking then your opponent will also get some licks in as well. Hence why most people feel that you need to engage at the appropriate time, angle, etc. whether coming in before an attack or following an attack and then manage or control their ability to continue attacking while you strike and if you are fortunate get a disarm.

Yeah, i've got a set of Kamagong sticks, and they're really like holding metal pipes.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Good post Sgt.

The stick differs from the blade in terms of the damage in that you can break bone and do damage pretty much in general on the body with a bludgeoning tool . You can get direct access to the brain by whacking the skull with sufficient force or repeated blows. You dont necessarily have to hit a specific target to create injury. It can also be done from a non-intimate distance. Death most likely results from blunt force trauma .


The knife on the other hand needs to perforate arteries and you have to penetrate deep, dig and saw to get them. Distance has to be intimate meaning you are right on top of them thrusting and hacking away. Stabbing major organs wont ensure a kill. most often the target is an aorta or major artery. Hemorrhage and desanguination are the results of the injuries. Death most often results from exsanguination.

both are messy.


I think free fighting with the tools is the best way to find whats practical in actuality. Training to strike them with the tools and training to strike them when they are holding the tool. Go slow and make sure you are getting to that target and smashing it or you wont get the results that ensure success. It takes a good, open training partner as well to help model success.

That is good you went out and trained like that with the sticks. thanks for sharing that K-MAN.

I can see control genralized as an understanding of the tool in relation to his brain and body or targets and yours.

When you say 'knife' you're referring to small knives in your description.......large knives aren't nearly as limited. Comparing a large knife to a club is apples and hand grenades. A large knife can sever limbs and disembowel with a single swipe........that's why some systems differentiate between 'hand assistors' and 'battle blades', such as in Atienza Kali.....as the dynamics are very different.

At any rate, the blade, regardless of size, leaves only beyond Largo range as safe.......where as with a club beyond Largo and inside Corto (providing the unarmed subject's grappling skills are superior) are both relatively safe.





Put simply.......nobody in their right mind, if given the choice of weapons, would choose a stick to fight a battle blade if the choice is vice versa, using the battle blade to fight the stick........which is NOT to say that a club is NOT a tremendous advantage over being unarmed........don't misunderstand me. The club is a LETHAL weapon in skilled or even unskilled hands......but relatively less so than gun or knife.

 

[arnisador]

The big issue, however, is that it requires commitment to use a baseball bat effectively........a man with a knife can kill you accidentally if you try to take it away from him.

OK, I'll buy that...anyone can be dangerous with a knife!