Hakko-ryu & Kamishinkan Jujutsu similarities & differences

[kamishinkan]

Denny,

I was wondering about the use of the pinky finger in the Dentokan....
Sounds funny I know but in the exposure I have had with Hakko Ryu Jujutsu the extension through the pinky finger is emphasized (deals with the meridian line).
In Kamishin Ryu Jujutsu we use the concept of extension through the pinky finger for take down waza and release waza and the index finger for throws. Slightly different but I was wondering how Hobbs Shihan explains it through the Dentokan.

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

Denny,

I was wondering about the use of the pinky finger in the Dentokan....
Sounds funny I know but in the exposure I have had with Hakko Ryu Jujutsu the extension through the pinky finger is emphasized (deals with the meridian line).
In Kamishin Ryu Jujutsu we use the concept of extension through the pinky finger for take down waza and release waza and the index finger for throws. Slightly different but I was wondering how Hobbs Shihan explains it through the Dentokan.

I doesn't train directly under Hobbs shihan, but Haryo sensei does emphasize the pinky finger, for example, in doing Shodan Ude Osaedori, he said something like "move your hip to the right as if to stab your opponent's solar plexus with your right pinky". And in doing Gakun, he always extend his index finger.

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

Anyway, do you know anything about the Takeshin-ryu Aiki Jujutsu style of Mr. Tony Annesi? My sensei has a couple of his videos and Mr.Annesi demonstrates nice Aiki nage techniques. I remember reading somewhere in the Net that Mr. Annesi is also a student of Mr. Church.

 

[kamishinkan]

Sorry to take so long to respond. I just got back from doing a seminar in southwest Virginia.
As far as Annesi Sensei, He was trained in Aikido and Hakko Ryu Jujutsu before training in Kamishin Ryu. Because of his previous training, it was easy to learn the Kamishin Ryu curriculum. I have been to Annesi sensei's dojo (back in the late 90's) and he is probably one of the best Aiki instructors I have seen. Church sensei made him his "Ichi bon Deshi" (#1 student) of our "Aikijujutsu" ryugi. After Church sensei's death, Annesi sensei joined with Catherine Church in her Kamishin Ryu organization she created. Annesi sensei was made Soke-Dairi to her, I believe he left her organization in the mid 80's.
Since then he has incorporated other "Aiki" styles to further develop his Takeshin Aikijujutsu. From what I experienced while at his dojo, It is a very effective "soft" styled Aiki art (in comparison to Kamishin Ryu). I was impressed!

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

yes, I agree with your observations. I am impressed by his demos as well. Mr. Annesi demonstrates "hair grab no hand aiki nage" which are very advanced technique.

My own sensei remarked that he learned the waza in 1987 and only in 2001 that he was able to do that properly

(the waza goes like this. Uke grab tori's hair. Tori does not grab Uke, but uses Aiki to throw uke. Did Mr. Annesi show this to you?).

BTW, I read your article in the Christian martial artist website. Very nice.

 

[kamishinkan]

He did not show that to me. The week I was there he was also hosting black belt students from France (AikiGoshindo I think). Shihan Annesi used me as his Uke (he threw me all over his dojo!) and showed Takeshin Aiki waza that had evolved from Kamishin waza. His minimal motion Aiki is very impressive and from our conversations had evolved from Yondan level Kamishin Aiki waza. I need to get back up there and visit him again.

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

Aiki Goshindo? that must be the martial art of maitre Roland Maroteaux, an expert Budoka.

You should ask Mr. Annesi to teach you that hair-grab waza It's very impressive, really. My sensei is very small man, maybe only 165 cm, 60kg. But he is able to throw big Australian student, 180cm, 100kg, with this incredible waza.

 

[kamishinkan]

Yes it was some of his senior (black belt) students.
The next time I get up to Boston, I will ask him about the hair grab waza.

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

I just learned an interesting technique, it starts like the makikomi in nidan-gi, but uke is thrown using a forward step instead of a backwards step. ever done that?

 

[kamishinkan]

I am not sure.
In Hakko Ryu Maki Komi, Uke grabs the Tori's upper arm and throws a punch. While you block the punch you trap the grabbing arm with your forearm and cut downward and step back to take down.
In Kamishin Ryu, we do this and instead of stepping back to takedown, we cut the arm also with the blocking arm (after the capture) and throw to the rear. Uke has to take a "forward roll break" fall or hit their head on the floor . I don't think that is the same as what you are describing though.

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

I am not sure.
In Hakko Ryu Maki Komi, Uke grabs the Tori's upper arm and throws a punch. While you block the punch you trap the grabbing arm with your forearm and cut downward and step back to take down.

yep, that's how it's done in Dentokan.

Now, check out the third technique from this clip

www.geocities.com/talenta_psi_ui/advanced_aikijujutsu_2.zip

the technique I am telling you about looks like that, sort of. Whaddya think?

 

[kamishinkan]

No I have not seen that version. We do that take down (throw) but we usually teach it from wrist grabs at the basic level. We classify that as a reverse entering throw (ushiro irimi nage). The "reverse" part is because you use the back of the arm to throw.

Great clip! It appears to be Daito Ryu. Is that correct?

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

Yep, they are from a Daito-ryu friendship demonstrations conducted long ago, when Mochizuki sensei were still alive. I think I got more somewhere in my sensei's server. Want more?

 

[kamishinkan]

Once again, sorry it took so long to respond, I have been out of town again.
I would love to see more of the footage. Very interesting!

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

here is one, hope it still works

www.geocities.com/talenta_psi_ui/advanced_aiki_jujutsu.zip

do you notice that this thread has gone three pages, and there are only two people (us) talking? kind of proving the fact that it only takes two serious people, whom are respectful to each other and genuinely wants to share information, to make an interesting and lasting discussion?

 

[kamishinkan]

The link downloaded a rather good song called "Holy" by a Jason Morant?
I did not get any Jujutsu footage though. Maybe it has been changed.

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

ahh, that's very strange, how could it happened? perhaps trying the Right Click then SAVE AS trick will work?

If not, please PM me your email address, and I'll ask sensei to forward the videoclip directly to your mailbox!

 

[kamishinkan]

The link worked (probably user error!)
Great footage! Thanks for sending the link.

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

glad it works! what do you think about the wazas?

 

[kamishinkan]

Good stuff. We do many of those waza in our Nidan waza list.
Thanks for the clips.