Haganah or Krav Maga? Does it even matter?

[Tominator93]

I am interested in learning a martial art that has real world application, and is geared (or at least adaptable) to modern personal defense needs. Naturally, Krav Maga is one of the systems on my short list. However, I am in a bit of a predicament.

There are two schools near me that teach Krav. The first school, ( http://www.puyallupmartialarts.com/krav_maga.html ) is through Krav Maga Worldwide, ( http://www.kravmaga.com ) and the second school ( http://harborma.com/site/view/65809_FIGHTRealWorldMMA.pml ) is through the International Haganah Federation ( http://www.fight2survive.com ).

The Krav Maga Worldwide school seemed a bit showy. "Brendan Fraser's Style of Choice" "Bas Rutten's Favorite" and "its teh awsum!" What is you guys opinion of Krav Worldwide?

I liked the look of the Haganah school, however I haven't heard as much about the Haganah Federation. Plus the instructor's credentials are "Certified Instructor". I don't know if that entitles a comprehensive 5 week course, a rigorous weekend retreat, with 7 hours of training a day, or a 2 hour Seminar.

What do you think?

 

[Khmo]

HEllo

if that can help you: when I gave run I received several guy of Kravmaga, all confused currents and also Haganah… the central trunk is the same one ! Only there are alternatives in the techniques… in the vision of the result. But the framework of the systems are identical. Systems wish to better work with dimensions Personal Défense, others with dimensions Police and neutralization, or with the soldiers… Many techniques are identical !
But there will exist alternatives ! 1 system which was " interesting: I do not say better than the others that is YOU who judges…
that was the Kravmaga Commando. Why ? Because there were few kicks high and 1 technique is applicable for several situations. 1 technique can be useful with several attacks or several defenses…
System simplified by Moni AIZIK. I give you the bond right for Fun… I do not make of Kravmaga
http://www.commandokravmaga.com

good evening has you !
respect,
Khmo

 

[jks9199]

You're looking at two flavors of the same art. Look at the particular school and instructor, and go with the program that you like better.

 

[girlbug2]

I've only had experience with Krav Maga Worldwide, but everything we've learned is practical and no frills. Nobody's ever told me that Brendan Fraser and Bas Rutten practice it--sounds like marketing hype. Personally though I don't care about which celebs practice martial arts-- our system is solid and serious.

 

[Tominator93]

It sounds like The KM Worldwide school is sound. But what about the Haganah one? have any of you heard of the International Haganah Federation, or its founder?

 

[Carol]

Asking detailed specifics about the instructor's qualifications is a perfectly legitimate thing to do. If you can, find out more about their background also (ie: any military/LEO background that's applicable to using your skills in real time?)

 

[Omar B]

I've only had experience with Krav Maga Worldwide, but everything we've learned is practical and no frills. Nobody's ever told me that Brendan Fraser and Bas Rutten practice it--sounds like marketing hype. Personally though I don't care about which celebs practice martial arts-- our system is solid and serious.

Jack Bauer's a certified instructor too, says so in the 24 novels.

 

[Tez3]

When people talk of Haganah I wonder if they realise what the original was? It seems a strange thing to name a style of another martial art after.
I would have a look at anything Bas Rutten trains in carefully as he is actually known for his fighting lol! May be a 'celeb' now but he ain't an actor is he!

 

[girlbug2]

Jack Bauer's a certified instructor too, says so in the 24 novels.

like I said...:shrug:

 

[markmessare]

Hello everyone:

Just saw this thread about Haganah & Krav and thought I'd post my opinion. I am a Wing Chun school owner and have been trained by a former navy seal for the last 16 years. Im not saying this to puff up my chest but to tell you about my recent experience with Haganah. I began to look into the Israeli arts about 6 years ago and I stumbled across this style called Haganah. At one point I was thinking about getting certified in Krav because it is more well known, but on the other hand, so is TKD. What I learned was that Haganah is the name of the underground fighting forces of Israel prior to Israel becoming a nation. In fact the IDF (Israeli Defensive Forces) have the name Haganah in their name - Haganah de Israel or IDF.


I finally took the plunge and went to train with Mike Lee Kanarek, an Israeli Special Forces Vet who has been trained in all 4 major systems of Israeli Martial Arts. Krav Maga (Most Popular and focuses on self defense), Hisardut (Israeli Combative Style/ Full Contact Fighting ), Kapap (Knife & Gun defenses, especially developed for military) and Lotar (taught exclusively to special ops). Haganah is actually a blend of all 4 systems and Mr. Kanarek, teaches students not only to defend against a gun and knife but how to fight with them. For those who have seen some of the Video clips, they might argue that the techniques look simple but that is exactly the idea. Just like Wing Chun, the philosophy for REAL fighting that works best is keep it simple stupid. In real engagements one is always likely to overreact or under-react, both can be deadly.

In many ways, I would say that MLK is similar to a Bruce Lee of our generation because he is trying to bring a philosophy of Reality Fighting and make it available to everyone. No one understands counter-terrorism better than Israel and they have trained the weapons that are needed for today's engagement.

Haganah is Special Forces style training for the Civilian, Military or Law Enforcement " from housewife to homeland security". US Counterterror groups and law enforcement groups are paying good money to get training with Mike Lee Kanarek in this style.
Some might ask, does this mean you have sold out to Wing Chun ? Absolutely not. F.I.G.H.T./Haganah (Fierce Israeli Guerilla Hand-to-Hand Tactics) teaches gross motor skills and Wing Chun helps teach fine motor skills. These two philosophies in my opinion go hand in hand like two sides of the same coin. My Sifu once said "If it works, it's Ving Tsun" and I can attest that this art works.

If you are ever in the area, stop by and I'd be happy to let you try our program out for free for a week.

Mark.

www.fight2survive.us
www.fight2survive.com

 

[Xue Sheng]

When people talk of Haganah I wonder if they realise what the original was? It seems a strange thing to name a style of another martial art after.

a Jewish paramilitary organization (aka a Zionist terrorist orgainization) from 1920 to 1948 which may or may not have later became the IDF

 

[webmailbox1]

I am a certified instructor in both KM and Haganah systems. I favor Haganah, generally.

The most obvious difference between KM and Haganah is an important strategic objective that Haganah innovates. It is a tactical method termed the POINT OF REFERENCE (POR) which serves as the foundation for the entire Haganah system. Essentially, the POR seeks to control the attackers head, operating on the principle that if you can control a man’s head, you can control his body. Acquiring the POR is foremost on the mind of the Haganah practitioner and all combatives are simply entry techniques to this strategic position: Haganah selects 18 different common street attacks and instructs one how to not only counter the attack, but obtain the POR. Kicks, punches, elbows, etc are all simply means of entry. Once the POR is attained, one is trained to choose between three possible objectives; from the POR one is trained to: A) take the attacker to the floor (restraint), B) break a joint (incapacitate), or C) break the neck (terminate)… depending on the situation.

The POR method guides the practitioner on a path to execute techniques with a clear goal in mind. One knows exactly how to finish the fight (one of 3 ways, as above). Where mental focus under stress is half the battle (or more), this is a VERY important element. The POR method is non-existent in KM - instead one is taught to pound the assailant into submission or until safe escape is possible. I find that KM’s approach can be summed up as, “hit him again… and again”, and although it is effective, Haganah provides a superior strategic goal, in my opinion.


Another thing, if this is important to you:

Generally, the KM curriculum introduces gun and knife disarms as advanced material. A student may have to train for months before they are initiated to these techniques. In Haganah the student is introduced to these skills immediately. Also, modifications have been made to some of the standard KM techniques to enhance their effectiveness.

 

[brokenbonz]

I am a certified instructor in both KM and Haganah systems. I favor Haganah, generally.

The most obvious difference between KM and Haganah is an important strategic objective that Haganah innovates. It is a tactical method termed the POINT OF REFERENCE (POR) which serves as the foundation for the entire Haganah system. Essentially, the POR seeks to control the attackers head, operating on the principle that if you can control a man’s head, you can control his body. Acquiring the POR is foremost on the mind of the Haganah practitioner and all combatives are simply entry techniques to this strategic position: Haganah selects 18 different common street attacks and instructs one how to not only counter the attack, but obtain the POR. Kicks, punches, elbows, etc are all simply means of entry. Once the POR is attained, one is trained to choose between three possible objectives; from the POR one is trained to: A) take the attacker to the floor (restraint), B) break a joint (incapacitate), or C) break the neck (terminate)… depending on the situation.

The POR method guides the practitioner on a path to execute techniques with a clear goal in mind. One knows exactly how to finish the fight (one of 3 ways, as above). Where mental focus under stress is half the battle (or more), this is a VERY important element. The POR method is non-existent in KM - instead one is taught to pound the assailant into submission or until safe escape is possible. I find that KM’s approach can be summed up as, “hit him again… and again”, and although it is effective, Haganah provides a superior strategic goal, in my opinion.


Another thing, if this is important to you:

Generally, the KM curriculum introduces gun and knife disarms as advanced material. A student may have to train for months before they are initiated to these techniques. In Haganah the student is introduced to these skills immediately. Also, modifications have been made to some of the standard KM techniques to enhance their effectiveness.

Thank you for the post, I wanted to get involved in Israeli martial art but was confused about the different organizations and all the discussions on the vailidity of each system. I started Haganah about 5 weeks ago and I'm loving it.

 

[Touch Of Death]

When people talk of Haganah I wonder if they realise what the original was? It seems a strange thing to name a style of another martial art after.
I would have a look at anything Bas Rutten trains in carefully as he is actually known for his fighting lol! May be a 'celeb' now but he ain't an actor is he!

Just hide and watch. It almost has to happen.
sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

Thank you for the post, I wanted to get involved in Israeli martial art but was confused about the different organizations and all the discussions on the vailidity of each system. I started Haganah about 5 weeks ago and I'm loving it.

Thats the whole point. Its not about who is better, its about what you like and don't like; considering, you are the one who has to drag yourself off the couch to go.
Sean

 

[Jonathan]

I keep running this question through my mind, too- there's a both a KM and Haganah school in the area.

I can't speak (or shed any doubt on) the effectivenss of Haganah, but for some reason the way it's presented as 'F.I.G.H.T.' sets off some kind of 'cynic bell' in my brain, like it's trying to market itself as one of those 'uber systems that will ensure you never lose another street fight' you see being pushed in various magazines.

The question of 'groundwork' also comes up (and in fact was what brought me here to post today, until I saw the thread on the very topic a few posts away from this one). To that end- does one or the other have more groundwork involved?

 

[Spork3245]

Haganah is fake and Mike Kanerek is being investigated. http://www.mikekanarek.com/ http://www.fakeselfdefenseinstructors.com/
He will be sued along with Avi Nardia and Moni Aizik for fraud.
End of discussion.

However, to answer the above question, the IKMA is the only Krav Maga organization with a "robust" ground-system.

PS: With this post I do not mean to "offend" any one. Haganah, CKM and KAPAP are not Krav Maga, and do not follow our principals. Learning and using their techniques on the street will most likely get you seriously injured, if not killed, especially when up against an armed attacker. I do not care if you are with KMWW, IKMF, KMF or IKMA, it's still Krav Maga at least.

 

[jks9199]

Haganah is fake and Mike Kanerek is being investigated. http://www.mikekanarek.com/ http://www.fakeselfdefenseinstructors.com/
He will be sued along with Avi Nardia and Moni Aizik for fraud.
End of discussion.

However, to answer the above question, the IKMA is the only Krav Maga organization with a "robust" ground-system.

PS: With this post I do not mean to "offend" any one. Haganah, CKM and KAPAP are not Krav Maga, and do not follow our principals. Learning and using their techniques on the street will most likely get you seriously injured, if not killed, especially when up against an armed attacker. I do not care if you are with KMWW, IKMF, KMF or IKMA, it's still Krav Maga at least.

Perhaps you can expand a bit on where they're so wrong? What are some of the key elements and principles that make legitimate Krav Maga? How are they missing in some of these other programs?

 

[Spork3245]

Perhaps you can expand a bit on where they're so wrong? What are some of the key elements and principles that make legitimate Krav Maga? How are they missing in some of these other programs?

It's not Krav Maga. It's like comparing Judo or Taekwondo to Krav Maga.
"Legitimate Krav Maga" is Krav Maga, there's a set curriculum; Krav is not Jeet Kune Do and only really a "concept", Krav Maga is an actual form. What these frauds are teaching is not ment for the street or Law Enforcement or Military applications. Most of what they teach in KAPAP, Haganah and CKM will simply not work outside of an MMA ring and will get you injured or killed. There's a reason why Avi Nardia, Moni Aizik and Mike Kanerek had to lie about their credentials to get people to train under them, and a reason why many of their "highest-ranking" instructors/students are now defecting to legitimate Krav Maga schools. I do not know how to "expand" further than this.

 

[jks9199]

It's not Krav Maga. It's like comparing Judo or Taekwondo to Krav Maga.
"Legitimate Krav Maga" is Krav Maga, there's a set curriculum; Krav is not Jeet Kune Do and only really a "concept", Krav Maga is an actual form. What these frauds are teaching is not ment for the street or Law Enforcement or Military applications. Most of what they teach in KAPAP, Haganah and CKM will simply not work outside of an MMA ring and will get you injured or killed. There's a reason why Avi Nardia, Moni Aizik and Mike Kanerek had to lie about their credentials to get people to train under them, and a reason why many of their "highest-ranking" instructors/students are now defecting to legitimate Krav Maga schools. I do not know how to "expand" further than this.

As an example, I can say that Judo isn't Aikido because Aikido works on circular principles, and changing the circle's direction. Judo uses leverage. Or that one of the things that distinguishes Silat from many other arts is the emphasis on using positioning relative to the opponent more than using a lot of defined responses. I'm not asking you to provide a primer on Krav Maga -- but a few key things to look for to evaluate someone, beyond the IKMA "seal of approval" on it.