Tai Chi's Push Hands Law of Primal Unity

[Appledog]

In Push Hands, we often focus too much on power and not enough on technique or control. This can lead to problems, as too much hardness or force can make you lose. Instead, push hands arts should emphasize staying organized and following what feels natural. Respond to situations in a way that flows smoothly and aligns with human feelings. To fully understand the movements, study the details of each position, and don’t let your mind be confused about your actions-- if you stop paying attention, every move will feel like a struggle.

With practice, moving between action and stillness becomes easier and more natural over time. In the beginning, you may find moments of sudden clarity. As you continue, these moments grow until you experience a full understanding—a clear, pure, and complete feeling, like returning to your original self. In fact the training of push hands has no element of resistance at all, thereby entirely restoring you to a primordial state (hunyuan).

 

[Xue Sheng]

In Push Hands, we often focus too much on power and not enough on technique or control. This can lead to problems, as too much hardness or force can make you lose. Instead, push hands arts should emphasize staying organized and following what feels natural. Respond to situations in a way that flows smoothly and aligns with human feelings. To fully understand the movements, study the details of each position, and don’t let your mind be confused about your actions-- if you stop paying attention, every move will feel like a struggle.

With practice, moving between action and stillness becomes easier and more natural over time. In the beginning, you may find moments of sudden clarity. As you continue, these moments grow until you experience a full understanding—a clear, pure, and complete feeling, like returning to your original self. In fact the training of push hands has no element of resistance at all, thereby entirely restoring you to a primordial state (hunyuan).

Mostly agree, but if it is to follow the principles of Yin and Yang, there is yielding and resistance

 

[windwalker099]

As you continue, these moments grow until you experience a full understanding—a clear, pure, and complete feeling, like returning to your original self. In fact the training of push hands has no element of resistance at all, thereby entirely restoring you to a primordial state (hunyuan).

You feel you have reached this point,
"full understanding" ?

 

[Same Trick]

The “push” in push hands resonate with force and resistance, be thankful to the forceful from them you learn and sharpen skill

“Feel the force around you” - Yoda

 

[Appledog]

But if there is resistance, then it is force against force.

 

[Xue Sheng]

But if there is resistance, then it is force against force.

If there is (Yang) force, absorb or redirect with Yin. If there is no push (yang) there is only Yin and no one moves

 

[windwalker099]

The “push” in push hands resonate with force and resistance, be thankful to the forceful from them you learn and sharpen skill

“Feel the force around you” - Yoda

With those I work with, I tell them: "The only force/resistance you can feel is your own. When you don't feel force, it means you are not using force."

不用力 (bù yòng lì), 用意 (yòng yì): "Do not use force, use mind/intention."

 

[Appledog]

If there is (Yang) force, absorb or redirect with Yin. If there is no push (yang) there is only Yin and no one moves

So you're saying there is a point between yin and yang that is neither yin nor yang?

 

[Xue Sheng]

So you're saying there is a point between yin and yang that is neither yin nor yang?

No I’m saying you need both
Yang +Yang is force + force
Yin + Yin is absorb + absorb
There is a point where the switch

Before yin and yang there is neither

 

[marvin8]

But if there is resistance, then it is force against force.

Excerpt from "Notes on the Tai Chi Training Method called Ti Fang" by Stephen Goodson:

In the Ti Fang exercise, your initial contact with your partner is at 4oz of pressure. You should have a good feel for this amount of pressure from the preliminary learning of the Push Hands choreography. Suffice to say that it's just about 4oz. Once this contact is established you then start to gently push. When the pressure builds to just more than 4oz [say 5oz] they will reflexively raise slightly, you then withdraw to just under 4oz of pressure [say 3oz, but don't disconnect], and then you accelerate them [pushing through their center]. The withdraw "severs the root" of your opponent so that when you accelerate them away you meet little/no resistance. If you get it right both his feet will leave the ground as he hops away...

 

[Same Trick]

Anyway, why would one think push-hands practice would lead to any primordial state of being? I mean, it’s a too fluffy kind of exercise,

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

you then withdraw to just under 4oz of pressure [say 3oz, but don't disconnect],

What if your opponent just grabs on your wrist?

Taiji people don't like to talk about "wrist grabbing". You may not like to grab, but you can't prevent your opponent from grabbing your wrist.

I think Taiji people may stay in their Taiji circle too long and not realize what the real world supposed to look like.

 

[windwalker099]

I think Taiji people may stay in their Taiji circle too long and not realize what the real world supposed to look like.

Like many things, it depends on the nature and focus of one's practice.
Each person may have an interpretation they feel comfortable with, that others may question.
It might be more insightful to observe what people can do with the interpretations they use.

Whole body method to handling grabbing.
using emptiness, change, sinking and rotation
Using "single whip"

foot and hand use
using brush knee and twist

 

[windwalker099]

What if your opponent just grabs on your wrist?

demo showing wrist grabbing
Using central equilibrium and single axis point to control..

 

[Appledog]

What if your opponent just grabs on your wrist?

Taiji people don't like to talk about "wrist grabbing". You may not like to grab, but you can't prevent your opponent from grabbing your wrist.

I think Taiji people may stay in their Taiji circle too long and not realize what the real world supposed to look like.

I think you have badly misunderstood the nature and goals of tai chi practice. It is too easy for you to criticize others. Why don't you post an answer by yourself? This isn't a discussion about "some people" it is a discussion over the orthodox methods of the martial arts, specifically Tai Chi. If someone doesn't understand what is going on, it's proper to ask. But posting a question like this, at this point, is essentially trolling. You should know better; at some point saying "what will you do if I punch you in the face" as a response to random discussions on theory becomes counterproductive, even though it was a good idea in the beginning.

I was reminded of a recent video:

 

[Same Trick]

What if your opponent just grabs on your wrist?

Taiji people don't like to talk about "wrist grabbing". You may not like to grab, but you can't prevent your opponent from grabbing your wrist.

I think Taiji people may stay in their Taiji circle too long and not realize what the real world supposed to look like.

wrist grabs(or any grabbing) are good to understand, it’s a very direct and realistic action to learn handling against/with, from there one can go on refining methods

 

[Xue Sheng]

What if your opponent just grabs on your wrist?

Taiji people don't like to talk about "wrist grabbing". You may not like to grab, but you can't prevent your opponent from grabbing your wrist.

I think Taiji people may stay in their Taiji circle too long and not realize what the real world supposed to look like.

Who are these taiji people you continually refer to?

1) wrist grabs are not part of “basic” push hands practice

2) if you know, and understand, the Yang style long form, there are wrist grabs, qinna and self defense in it. And in Chen it can be even more obvious

 

[Same Trick]

The human hand evolved so we can efficiently grab and punch each other, but primarily to punch each other.

“explain why the proportions of our hands evolved in the first place—for stability during combat, rather than dexterity during tool use.”
Scientific Punch-Up Over Idea That Fighting Shaped Our Hands



Two person both with fair lady’s hands facing off to get primordial/primeval probably not going to get much of that sort.

 

[Teapot]

What if your opponent just grabs on your wrist?

Taiji people don't like to talk about "wrist grabbing". You may not like to grab, but you can't prevent your opponent from grabbing your wrist.

I think Taiji people may stay in their Taiji circle too long and not realize what the real world supposed to look like.

I have dealt with push-hand practitioners outside of my school who have grabbed my wrist before because they felt threatened. There's an "AH! Get this hand off me!" kind of response. They do not want to be grabbers. But they may do it anyway because it's like an instinctive response. Even in moments when they could let go of me, they still hold on because psychologically, holding onto something makes them feel safer.

I love it if my wrist gets grabbed because that is another point of contact for me to control. Psychologically, people think that they are in control of the arm they grab. But conversely, the one being grabbed can also control the grabbing arm.

So I have that confidence of: "Oh! You dare to grab my wrist. I am in control of your arm."

Although I know a lot of Qinna methods, even without Qinna, being grabbed isn't a problem for me because it's just another point of contact to control. For example, I have had non-cooperative push-hand practitioners grab my wrist, and I might yank their arm in a direction that's weak relative to the angle of their stance. I can control their balance, make them stagger, lean, etc... That, on its own, can be a setup for something else or used in conjunction with a sweep.

However, I agree with you that most Taiji people do not seem to know... all sorts of things. But, most of them are not martial artists. Most of them aren't serious. And most of them do not have access to anything legit. So that's to be expected.

However, do note that I am saying all this while having only practiced and still practicing Taijiquan. I did not cross-train to be able to say this. And I have dealt with some who like to grab my wrist because their background is BJJ. But, I don't care. Being grabbed is inconsequential to me. I am used to it; I've trained for it.

 

[windwalker099]

What if your opponent just grabs on your wrist?

Taiji people don't like to talk about "wrist grabbing". You may not like to grab, but you can't prevent your opponent from grabbing your wrist.

I think Taiji people may stay in their Taiji circle too long and not realize what the real world supposed to look like.

Always thought-provoking...

Quite right. Many Tai Chi practitioners work within their circles, focusing on aspects they find relevant to their practice.

One might ask themselves, if they understand zhān" (粘) sticking energy, what would be the point of grabbing?
There is a term 缩 (suō) which means to shrink or contract.

If one can do this, it's very difficult for the other person to grab. While trying to grab, they are usually using force, often directional.

One can use 棚 (péng) – expanding energy, they will be unable to find a point to grab, or 缩 (suō) – shrinking or contracting energy they will not be able to control what they have garbed...

for some people
一抓住就不放" (yī zhuā zhù jiù bù fàng "once grabbed, won't let go"

They may find "骑虎难下" (qí hǔ nán xià). riding a tiger and finding it difficult to dismount