Gun laws in Australia

[billc]

Yeah, registration...what exactly does that do...?

 

[K-man]

There is a difference between other countries and the US. We have glorified criminal behavior in this country. We have said it's ok to have 8 kids with 7 different mothers and not be a father to any of them. We have a society that believes talking to the police is just cause to kill you for snitching. I've talked to victims that refuse to tell me what happened because they don't watch to snitch. We have the largest drug markets in the world. That's not a gun problem that's a screwed up mentality and no laws can fix it. And if banning things worked so well why cam I buy cocaine in every town in this country?

I think it's important to keep the issues separate. Certainly there has been a huge change in society values over the past 60 years but the issue of criminal behaviour needs to be looked at without the emotional things like family breakup etc. That is being used as an excuse for the bad behaviour. It is not the reason. Education is the only way out. That and assisting young people to escape the trap of poverty. You have posted elsewhere that people should just get off their arses, get a job and get on with it. It doesn't work that way for a big percentage. Youth unemployment is a big problem in many countries. You can't get work if the jobs aren't there.

As to the drugs issue. I agree with you. What I can't get over are the so called 'law abiding' citizens who buy the drugs for their recreational use and in the process support the criminal organisations. We have had discussion on MT in the past as to whether drugs should be legalised and I am sure doing that would remove a lot of the criminal behaviour. However the other problems arising from unrestricted drug access might be too high a price to pay.

As a police officer I don't find this true. Most criminals I arrest are not armed at all. Maybe 1 in 10 and of them armed ones 90% have something other then a gun. I do find guns on people but it's not very often in comparison to the number of people I come in contact with.

If that is the case it flies in the face of those advocating that more people should be carrying firearms. Interesting.

 

[billc]

If that is the case it flies in the face of those advocating that more people should be carrying firearms. Interesting.

More,law abiding people should carry guns...they aren't the ones shooting other people...as to criminals not carrying...they only have to carry when they are working...you know..robbing, raping murdering people.

The reason these problems exist is children raising children on government welfare, generation after generation with the only male role models being criminals who see people who work 40-50 hours a week and go to school to improve their lives as chumps...

thug life...

 

[ballen0351]

I think it's important to keep the issues separate. Certainly there has been a huge change in society values over the past 60 years but the issue of criminal behaviour needs to be looked at without the emotional things like family breakup etc. That is being used as an excuse for the bad behaviour.

I get what your saying but I dont think you can keep the issues separate. I think in my opinion trying to treat each and every symptom is whats failing. Family break ups, being raised with out a father in the picture, being brought up to think laws dont apply to you, ect do lead to criminal behavior. Emotional or not it just is.

Education is the only way out. That and assisting young people to escape the trap of poverty. You have posted elsewhere that people should just get off their arses, get a job and get on with it. It doesn't work that way for a big percentage. Youth unemployment is a big problem in many countries. You can't get work if the jobs aren't there.

Jobs are here. Every paper in the country has a help wanted section with jobs in them. This too isn't a single solution. Education is important as you said, so is securing our border to free up jobs for our youth. This also goes back to being raised in a good family. If your not raised with a strong work ethic your not going to want to work.

As to the drugs issue. I agree with you. What I can't get over are the so called 'law abiding' citizens who buy the drugs for their recreational use and in the process support the criminal organisations. We have had discussion on MT in the past as to whether drugs should be legalised and I am sure doing that would remove a lot of the criminal behaviour. However the other problems arising from unrestricted drug access might be too high a price to pay.

I agree and it also doesn't stop related crimes like thefts and robberies needed to fund the addiction

If that is the case it flies in the face of those advocating that more people should be carrying firearms. Interesting.

not at all. I believe that Ill never need to use my gun off duty in any self defense situation. The odds say I wont. However Id much rather carry it every day and never need it then not have it the one time in my life I need it. Preparation is the key. Ill probably never need to use my martial arts training outside of work either but I still train just in case.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

So ballen0351 we agree that it is a society issue and that education is the key. So a national campaign against gun violence and gun education is in order and you agree with this?

We seem to be agreed on mandatory training. Cool. I agree it should not be so costly that people cannot afford it but hey people pay anywhere right now from $75 to $200 to get poor training and a ccw. What we need to do is mandate that the people training them for their ccw do a better job. If they do not want to take a ccw class then maybe have them take a basic firearm class and hold the instructors of said course to a very high standard.


We do not agree on registration but hey the fact of life is that you have to register a lot of things. Like cars, etc. That is never going away whether a Republican is in the White House or a Democrat so it is truthfully not an issue in my opinion but more of just a talking point. Never going away, ever...... The government wants to know who has the guns and frankly that is it. If Ronald Reagon was elected today he wouldn't touch the registry issue either. (heck as a moderate Republican he couldn't even be elected today) This isn't changing no matter what so do not waste my time with it. Whomever is in power will want to know!

Agreed that we definitely have a huge mental health issue in this country. Needs some serious reevaluation on our part on how to get this under control. I know you deal with this every day and frankly I feel for you. I have like every one else no idea how to address this.

Truthfully you and I agree on several points. Where we probably would have the biggest disagreement is on waiting periods. Frankly, I see no reason why someone has to have their firearm the day of the purchase. Why? To hunt? I come from a family of sportsmen. My grandfather was probably one of the best hunters and fishing expert you could find in Michigan. He never needed to purchase a gun that day and then go hunt that day. Actually, he as a hunter knew when to purchase at the right time when the price was low and he would wait. Likewise I have a few iaito and shinken from Japan. I had to wait to have those and one took over a year and a half. Did not affect me at all. So why does someone need to have a firearm the day of? What reason can you give? Self defense. Okay, maybe someone made a threat to them and if it was documented and a retraining order placed then maybe that could be an exception to get it early. Can you think of any other reasons? Now most of the places I know seem to be getting away from the waiting periods for handguns and we both know it was really never there for long guns and shot guns. So the whole waiting periods that we have had in certain places have been pretty much a joke. Now in my opinion I have no problem with waiting periods and if they were long enough and over all firearms it might, I said it might make a difference. So for me waiting periods are fine even up to a month or more. However, we both know people do not have the stomach for this as we are a spur of the moment purchase society. Lord knows big business in the firearm industry would never stand for waiting periods for rifles and shotguns. It is just not going to happen!

Now violence statistics have been on the decline both for firearm and non-firearm related offenses. That is good! Hopefully the very recent mass murders will not continue on a monthly pace. How do we stop that? I think it comes down to education about firearms. The effects of firearm violence both to the victims and the perpetrator. Not to mention the effects on the families of the victims, perpetrator, etc. Education is the key, mental health resources are the key. That we can seem to agree on and hopefully people on the far left and far right will start to work together to make and effect in these areas.


I bet we both could also agree that we wish gun violence in the United States was as low as what they have in Australia. Unfortunately it is not and we are a very different country on several levels. However, hopefully we can make serious progress on declining crime rates and even less mass shootings in the future. Education is the key. Mental health resources is the key. Hopefully, some politicians step up and do the right thing.

 

[K-man]

More,law abiding people should carry guns...they aren't the ones shooting other people...as to criminals not carrying...they only have to carry when they are working...you know..robbing, raping murdering people.

The reason these problems exist is children raising children on government welfare, generation after generation with the only male role models being criminals who see people who work 40-50 hours a week and go to school to improve their lives as chumps...

thug life...

Well perhaps you could catch them when they are working ... you know ... robbing ... raping ... murdering people.

Now if there is a reason for all the crime and violence as you attribute above, why aren't you demanding action to fix that problem rather than spending all your time promoting extremist right wing propaganda?

 

[K-man]

I agree and it also doesn't stop related crimes like thefts and robberies needed to fund the addiction.

Addiction is the very visible tip of the iceberg. It is people with disposable income who are fuelling the drug scene. High profile people who feel they are doing nothing wrong by buying illegal drugs from a criminal. Solicitors, 'respected' businessmen, etc. I am constantly amazed. These people don't commit crime to fund their addiction, they commit the crime in purchasing the drug.

not at all. I believe that Ill never need to use my gun off duty in any self defense situation. The odds say I wont. However Id much rather carry it every day and never need it then not have it the one time in my life I need it. Preparation is the key. Ill probably never need to use my martial arts training outside of work either but I still train just in case.

It is the same here and in all the countries I have visited. I have never felt threatened and I have never felt the need for a weapon. I doubt I will need my martial art skills either, but that is not the reason I train.

 

[ballen0351]

So ballen0351 we agree that it is a society issue and that education is the key. So a national campaign against gun violence and gun education is in order and you agree with this?

I wouldnt say I Agree. I dont have an issue with it but I have less faith then you do it would work. I do agree on the gun education side not so much violence campaign. Gun education would prevent accidents. My kids have been training with and using guns since they were small. The "wow" factor is gone they dont even look twice at them. If they found one on the street or at a friends Im confident they would know what to do. I just dont think a stop the violence campaign would work not when you get so much pro-violence for lack of a better word on TV, Music, games, ect. I wouldnt be against it however ifit where done well

We seem to be agreed on mandatory training. Cool. I agree it should not be so costly that people cannot afford it but hey people pay anywhere right now from $75 to $200 to get poor training and a ccw. What we need to do is mandate that the people training them for their ccw do a better job. If they do not want to take a ccw class then maybe have them take a basic firearm class and hold the instructors of said course to a very high standard.

yeah again that would prevent accidents. It would stop crime in my opinion. Criminals are not taking classes

We do not agree on registration but hey the fact of life is that you have to register a lot of things. Like cars, etc. That is never going away whether a Republican is in the White House or a Democrat so it is truthfully not an issue in my opinion but more of just a talking point. Never going away, ever...... The government wants to know who has the guns and frankly that is it. If Ronald Reagon was elected today he wouldn't touch the registry issue either. (heck as a moderate Republican he couldn't even be elected today) This isn't changing no matter what so do not waste my time with it. Whomever is in power will want to know!

Just dont see a point in it. It wont help lower crime and there is only one reason the Govt wants to know how has what. Again criminals wont register them so it does nothing to address that aspect of the issue.

Agreed that we definitely have a huge mental health issue in this country. Needs some serious reevaluation on our part on how to get this under control. I know you deal with this every day and frankly I feel for you. I have like every one else no idea how to address this.

yep thats the tricky one how you balance the liberty of the mentally ill vs the safety of others

Truthfully you and I agree on several points. Where we probably would have the biggest disagreement is on waiting periods. Frankly, I see no reason why someone has to have their firearm the day of the purchase. Why?

Why not? I bought it I want it now. I buy a new TV I dont need to wait, I buy anew car I dont need to wait. I own guns already if I want to go on a rampage I can without that gun Im waiting on. So it serves no purpose really in my opinion.

To hunt? I come from a family of sportsmen. My grandfather was probably one of the best hunters and fishing expert you could find in Michigan. He never needed to purchase a gun that day and then go hunt that day. Actually, he as a hunter knew when to purchase at the right time when the price was low and he would wait. Likewise I have a few iaito and shinken from Japan. I had to wait to have those and one took over a year and a half. Did not affect me at all. So why does someone need to have a firearm the day of? What reason can you give? Self defense. Okay, maybe someone made a threat to them and if it was documented and a retraining order placed then maybe that could be an exception to get it early. Can you think of any other reasons? Now most of the places I know seem to be getting away from the waiting periods for handguns and we both know it was really never there for long guns and shot guns. So the whole waiting periods that we have had in certain places have been pretty much a joke. Now in my opinion I have no problem with waiting periods and if they were long enough and over all firearms it might, I said it might make a difference. So for me waiting periods are fine even up to a month or more. However, we both know people do not have the stomach for this as we are a spur of the moment purchase society. Lord knows big business in the firearm industry would never stand for waiting periods for rifles and shotguns. It is just not going to happen!

Again I cant think of any crime a waiting period would prevent.

Now violence statistics have been on the decline both for firearm and non-firearm related offenses. That is good! Hopefully the very recent mass murders will not continue on a monthly pace. How do we stop that? I think it comes down to education about firearms. The effects of firearm violence both to the victims and the perpetrator. Not to mention the effects on the families of the victims, perpetrator, etc. Education is the key, mental health resources are the key. That we can seem to agree on and hopefully people on the far left and far right will start to work together to make and effect in these areas.

Mass killings are not really on a rise they are holding steady for the most part small swings up and down but no real huge upswing

I bet we both could also agree that we wish gun violence in the United States was as low as what they have in Australia

. Unfortunately it is not and we are a very different country on several levels. However, hopefully we can make serious progress on declining crime rates and even less mass shootings in the future. Education is the key. Mental health resources is the key. Hopefully, some politicians step up and do the right thing.

I honesty dont believe our violence rate is that high. Stay away from a few major cities were are at or lower then most of the world. There has not been a gun related homicide in the town I live in over 20 years. The last homicide at allwas in 1998 and a wife poisioned her husband and they were not even from here they were at a hotel. So Im not really troubled by the crime rate in the US

 

[ballen0351]

Addiction is the very visible tip of the iceberg. It is people with disposable income who are fuelling the drug scene. High profile people who feel they are doing nothing wrong by buying illegal drugs from a criminal. Solicitors, 'respected' businessmen, etc. I am constantly amazed. These people don't commit crime to fund their addiction, they commit the crime in purchasing the drug.

Thats the point. Making it legal wouldnt stop the addicts that are stealing, robbing, and killing people to fund the habit.

It is the same here and in all the countries I have visited. I have never felt threatened and I have never felt the need for a weapon. I doubt I will need my martial art skills either, but that is not the reason I train.

BUT that is the reason alot of people do train. Also the reason alot of people want to carry a gun.

 

[ballen0351]

promoting extremist right wing propaganda?

WHat part of allow people to bear arms to defend themselves and their family right wing propaganda?

 

[K-man]

Thats the point. Making it legal wouldnt stop the addicts that are stealing, robbing, and killing people to fund the habit.

BUT that is the reason alot of people do train. Also the reason alot of people want to carry a gun.

First part ... so true, and it would compound the already obvious mental health issues.

Reason for training? Mmm! I doubt whether any of my guys train for that reason. The only one who joined so he could 'beat up on his neighbour' changed his tune after the first lesson. He is the only one I have come across in decades with that attitude. The rest just love the physical and mental aspect of the training. The RBSD aspect of it is a bonus. As to carrying a gun ... it's not an issue here.

 

[K-man]

WHat part of allow people to bear arms to defend themselves and their family right wing propaganda?

Nothing. That's not what I said.

 

[ballen0351]

Reason for training? Mmm! I doubt whether any of my guys train for that reason. The only one who joined so he could 'beat up on his neighbour' changed his tune after the first lesson. He is the only one I have come across in decades with that attitude. The rest just love the physical and mental aspect of the training. The RBSD aspect of it is a bonus. As to carrying a gun ... it's not an issue here.

LOL so nobody comes looking for martial arts for self defense? come on man get serious

 

[ballen0351]

Nothing. That's not what I said.

Thats all I see him promote.

 

[PhotonGuy]

First part ... so true, and it would compound the already obvious mental health issues.

Reason for training? Mmm! I doubt whether any of my guys train for that reason. The only one who joined so he could 'beat up on his neighbour' changed his tune after the first lesson. He is the only one I have come across in decades with that attitude. The rest just love the physical and mental aspect of the training. The RBSD aspect of it is a bonus. As to carrying a gun ... it's not an issue here.

The reason I train is so I won't have to fight. If I train to the point where Im the toughest person around nobody will bother me and so I won't have to beat anybody up. And that's where the concept of an armed society being a polite society comes into play. That's why the cowboy six shooter was called the Peacemaker, because that's what it did. When good citizens have got guns nobody will cause any trouble so there you have it.

 

[K-man]

Thats all I see him promote.

Then you have extremely blinkered views. I would have thought you might have remembered his posts on climate change for a start. Then there are the disparaging remarks about a certain past President and his family, not to mention the attacks on those pesky socialist countries in Europe, or Obama-care, then the abuse of position by Democrat politicians ... and that's just off the top of my head.

 

[ballen0351]

Then you have extremely blinkered views. I would have thought you might have remembered his posts on climate change for a start. Then there are the disparaging remarks about a certain past President and his family, not to mention the attacks on those pesky socialist countries in Europe, or Obama-care, then the abuse of position by Democrat politicians ... and that's just off the top of my head.

Whats any of that have to do with gun laws crime and violence since thats the topic at hand?

 

[K-man]

The reason I train is so I won't have to fight. If I train to the point where Im the toughest person around nobody will bother me and so I won't have to beat anybody up. And that's where the concept of an armed society being a polite society comes into play. That's why the cowboy six shooter was called the Peacemaker, because that's what it did. When good citizens have got guns nobody will cause any trouble so there you have it.

False hope. Sorry to burst the balloon but you will never be the biggest toughest dude around. There will always be someone bigger and tougher than you, especially as you get older. Just for the record, I have never felt the need to beat anyone up.

And if you look at the violence of the Wild West, 'Peacemaker' is a most inappropriate description.

 

[Dirty Dog]

The reason I train is so I won't have to fight. If I train to the point where Im the toughest person around nobody will bother me and so I won't have to beat anybody up. And that's where the concept of an armed society being a polite society comes into play. That's why the cowboy six shooter was called the Peacemaker, because that's what it did. When good citizens have got guns nobody will cause any trouble so there you have it.

This is one of the most ridiculous things I've seen you post.

1 - You'll never be the toughest person around.
2 - Even if you're tough, the people around you won't know it.
2.5 - If you walk around with a sign telling people that you're tough, someone will want to test it. See #1...
3 - "An armed society is a polite society" is a quote from a Science FICTION novel. You do know the difference between fiction and reality, right?
4 - The Peacemaker was named that because some guy in the advertising department thought the name would boost sales.
5 - Good citizens being armed will never, under any circumstance a sane and rational mind will consider possible, stop other people from causing trouble.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Its a confident person who doesn't get messed with. Knowing you can take care of yourself makes you confident so people wont bother you, you don't have to show anybody you're tough you just have to know you can take care of yourself and you will be confident. You just don't get it. Dirty Dog I am sick of your insults and in case you haven't noticed its against forum rules.