Gun Defenses

[Doc]

Originally posted by Sharp Phil
That's what we call in this industry, "Faintly ridiculous."

About the time anyone says, "Gosh, you're going to have to take my word for it -- the techniques we do work really well, but only Secret Squirrels with Ultra Grade Decoder Ring Clearance are allowed this Incredibly Secret Knowledge," one can safely dismiss the speaker as full of crap. There are no mystical martial arts secrets, there are no moves that have not been done before, and there's no law enforcement officer alive who wouldn't want a private citizen to know a purely defensive move if it really was that effective.

Please don't waste any more of our time trying to tell us that the circular movements you practice have some magical mystery tour quality to them that makes them infinitely superior to everyone else's, but that we'll have to just smile and nod because you can't explain, wink-wink, nudge-nudge, salute-and-go-home. It's tiresome and silly.

I'm sorry sir, what did you say your law enforcement credentials were? What "industry' are you speaking of? I've got 30 years street time in. Collectively my students have hundreds of years of law enforcement time on the street and I still regulary teach in public law enforcement academies. You are entitled to your opinion sir, but my credentials are well established.

You don't have to take my advice, but others may want to, and - Since you want to go there, where did you say you learned your technique again?

I also find the fact that I don't discuss such techniques in public unusual among my law enforcement colleagues.

I can assure you sir, I am not "full of crap" as you stated. Also take note I never suggested you were. There are many here who might suggest I may know what I'm talking about. After all I did tell you about my students and how we tested our techniques. You may choose to not believe me, but don't let the fact you can't make it work or don't believe me discourage others.

Since you have no problem placing your "martialist" technique on the internet, perhaps you could explain it to us. Unlike you, maybe someone will give you some pointers to improve your own ineffectual execution in a respectful manner. I see by your profile you're a writer. Writing about surviving on the street, and doing it aren't the same. I'm a cop who lives it everyday intead of writing about it.

For the record, anything I say with regard to techniques, I can back it up. There are more than a few that will tell you that. "Full of crap," I'm not. I suggest you "salute and go home" and write about something you know something about.

 

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Sharp Phil
That's what we call in this industry, "Faintly ridiculous."

About the time anyone says, "Gosh, you're going to have to take my word for it -- the techniques we do work really well, but only Secret Squirrels with Ultra Grade Decoder Ring Clearance are allowed this Incredibly Secret Knowledge," one can safely dismiss the speaker as full of crap. There are no mystical martial arts secrets, there are no moves that have not been done before, and there's no law enforcement officer alive who wouldn't want a private citizen to know a purely defensive move if it really was that effective.

Please don't waste any more of our time trying to tell us that the circular movements you practice have some magical mystery tour quality to them that makes them infinitely superior to everyone else's, but that we'll have to just smile and nod because you can't explain, wink-wink, nudge-nudge, salute-and-go-home. It's tiresome and silly.

Your basics are poor. Your centerline has not been moved off the line of fire enough or at all, and you have not even begun to control the angle of versatility. Your left hand is out of position and could be creating a bind thus slowing your rotation. Pictures say one thousand words- open your mind and don't get bogged down with absolutes they are self and system defeating.

Everyone has material reserved for their inner circle- My opinion is he gave you a hint, you are not his student or friend therefore he owes you zip. It is up to you to investigate and he gave you a starting point. I gave you a few more- O one more important one is your defending arm in upsidedown.

 

[Disco]

That's me demonstrating the move, and I still consider it wildly risky. It's better than nothing, but I'd say I still have a very good chance of being shot.

You have more than a very good chance, you can make book on it that you will get shot.

I have no idea who showed you that move and as a student you accepted it, but whoever it was should be ashamed, very ashamed....... As a student of the arts and as a man of the pen, you are not without intellect. How you could not see or question the non-validity of that move, is beyond my comprehension. If you really study what has been hinted at, "Your basics are poor. Your centerline has not been moved off the line of fire enough or at all, and you have not even begun to control the angle of versatility. Your left hand is out of position and could be creating a bind thus slowing your rotation." you should be able to correct the flaws. I say this not to be condescending, but rather to be informative. I detest seeing anyone performing a technique that will clearly not work and in the process get themselves possibly killed.

Respectfully :asian:

 

[Phil Elmore]

How you could not see or question the non-validity of that move,

I suggest you reread the thread. I did question it. That was the whole point. Considering that the particular sequence was prefaced with the notion that it was not advisable, I'd say the point was made and then remade. Still, any amount of criticism -- however pointless or misdirected -- would have been welcome compared to the booga-booga-inner-circle-leo-only-take-my-word-for-it nonsense.

For that matter, any gun defense is going to be an act of urgency -- not something in which you'll have time to fine-tune your form. Much depends on the attacker's actions and reflexes, which are totally outside your control. They are random elements.

You can read a lot into photo sequences -- too much, in fact. I'll never tell someone, however, simply to take my word for it because it's secret.

If anyone here would like to write an article for The Martialist explaining their take on the techniques they would advise for such a hold-up, I would welcome it. Of course, to do so would require more than simply winking.

 

[Phil Elmore]

The December Issue's Gun Counter Articlehttp://www.themartialist.com/1203/gundisarm.htm, in context.

Follow-up submissions (taken via e-mail) are welcome.

 

[Michael Billings]

... as your weight shift onto the right, and execute the same technique. May as well try it, most people pivot on the balls of their feetm most of the time. This just changes the parameters and the speed with which you pivot off-line.

-Michael

 

[Phil Elmore]

That's a useful suggestion. (Footwork in Wing Chun, for example, always involves moving and rotating on the heels, not the balls of the feet.) So much in something like this depends on your speed and ferocity relative to the attacker's. That's what makes firearms counters dangerous and somewhat random.

Rereading my earlier posts I think I was a bit heavy handed initially, but I'll stand by the spirit of my post. Appeals to authority and martial arts secrets mean nothing to me; I value open discussion above all. That is the root of my contempt for "take my word for it" responses.

 

[MisterMike]

With any gun technique, it comes down to:

Can you sieze, control and redirect the weapon from being aimed at you before the wielder squeezes the trigger?

The more time you need to do to achieve this, the greater your chances of being shot.

With the barrel pressed against your back, you can plan on losing a lung or worse if you aren't fast enough.

There are statistics for the amount of time you have if the person really intends to shoot you or not. I've heard of 10 seconds. Meaning, if they haven't shot you in the first 10 seconds, your odds go up in defending yourself becasue they want something from you first without shooting you if necessary.

So back to the first question, are you going to do something, or wait out those 10 seconds? The one thing to your advantage, is YOU decide when to take action before they squeeze the trigger. They have to react to YOUR actions by keeping the barrel aimed at you and squeezing the trigger.

There's a lot of conditions that decide on how fast they are at squeezing off a round in reaction to your movement. To say one technique will/won't work is valid only to a point. There are some good techniques out there and everyone is working towards some "Best-practices".

For the case shown above, I also practice a twisting motion to get out of the way, but the handwork is different.

 

[Doc]

Regarding the previous, I never said for anyone to "take my word for it." What I suggested is a closer examination of the methodology and some constructive criticism from others willing to share their perspective, which they did. For that I was essentially called a "liar" among other names and ridiculed.

And as I figured he still hasn't presented his vast amount of experience in this area. He has chosen to skirt, or even hint at what his background expertise or credentials might be for his critical opinion. More than likely he's not a martial artist, but as he admits, he's just a writer.

Sir you are right. There are no "secrets." There is only what you know and what you don't know. Now that you have exposed yourself while advertising your net magazine, we know what category you fit in.

 

[Sigung86]

Dear "Sharp Phil",

I don't come here very often. People like yourself are pretty much the reason. Your proffer of a lame excuse for your behavior is typical... Beat on someone then back peddle. Not even very martial in spirit or application.

I was unable to post earlier, and may have taken care of that issue. I would like to say to you, and perhaps the folks who saw fit to put you in the position of moderator. "Too Bad"... If you continue as you do, I'm sure you will manage to drive away more folks than you attract.

I have known Doctor Chapél for a number of years, and will attest to his veracity and expertise both as a martial artist and an instructor of the highest order. No nudge-nudge wink-wink, smartassedness is needed on his part.

Before you get your knickers in a twist about me. A word. I am a 6th Dan (that would be 6th degree to you, in all probability) in Tracy Kenpo. Have had quite a bit of training and ranking in a number of other styles of Chinese art. I have been both at and in the martial arts (Kenpo mainly) for 40+ years. Many of my students have carried the art that I have taught them into the military and more than a few have been asked to and have taught what thehy carried to the folks now known as Special Operations Forces (probably, for you, that would be SEALs, Delta Force, Marine Fast Company, and Force Recon Marines, Special Air Service etc. etc. etc.). Two of my students are currently in Iraq, and one of my female Black Belts is leaving for Iraq in January. Each of them carries a level of training that will help them to survive. I do not present techniques that are so lame I find I have to apologize for posting pictures.

Point being that if you were not so arrogant, or is that pompous? You might find that a number of good people on this thread have offered you insights that you chose to ignore. Were you to come to my school or meet me in public and talk to me face-to-face the way you off-handedly slapped on Doctor Chapél I would, in all likelihood, laugh at you, call you a sissy boy and send you packing.

A number of people have offered you valid and very useful information, as I said before. I don't understand why they would continue an association with a forum that would let someone of your apparent ilk, be a moderator. They apparently have more patience for purposeful pomposity, arrogance and sheer dumbazzz, than I.

It is my hope that you will have a voluntary rectoencephalectomy, and check out the world of real. Otherwise, those in the know, like Doc, Rainman, and several other very knowledgeable will not only not share at you, but will often laugh at you to your face. For example ===> :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Most sincerely, and disrespectfully,

Daniel M. Farmer
RokuDan
Tracy International

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Sigung86
I don't understand why anyone would continue an association with a forum that would let someone of your apparent ilk, Sharp Phil, be a moderator.
Most sincerely, and disrespectfully,
Dan Farmer

Dan, the reason is..... he pays for space to produce his "OWN FORUM" so he can be a legend in his own mind and his own Mod, nothing to do with the MT Staff or personel.

I had not looked at this thread until now.. Man, I have never lost respect for an individual so fast as with this guy (Sharp Phil!)

I will recommend his forum to any enemies that I may encounter.

As for me, well, I don't see anything of use to discuss or utilize any of "HIS" potential advice.....LOL with him and his attitude towards others.

:rofl:

p.s. I hope he enjoys reading his own magazine, since I won't be recomending it to anyone!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

 

[MisterMike]

Wow. One misunderstanding and all the "flamers" come out.

As is typical as of late.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by MisterMike
Wow. One misunderstanding and all the "flamers" come out. As is typical as of late.

Excccuuuuuuuuuse Me?

 

[MisterMike]

Well, in Phil's defense, I've read this thread and I also know a bit of his writing style from his site and I think he got a little more than his share of bashing from the "heavyweights." He has a provocative writing style but hasn't personally attacked anyone.

I can't write nearly as clearly so he doesn't need me to come to his defense, but the thread has completely gone off-topic with more people coming on who hadn't commented earlier only to band together and attack his credibility.

I think we as martial artists have some professional responsibility to post respectfully. It's good to disagree, but to start citing your experience as better than someone else's (I don't consider law enforcement comparable, BTW) and then go on the offensive attacking personal character really turns this board into something similar to Yahoo.

It's very possible we may all meet at some point or another at a seminar or camp, and wouldn't it be better to know that we're all on the same side?

 

[Disco]

As you stated; I did question it. That was the whole point. Considering that the particular sequence was prefaced with the notion that it was not advisable.

If it was not advisable, what was the rational for presenting it in the first place?

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by MisterMike
He has a provocative writing style but hasn't personally attacked anyone.

Well, I beg to differ. What do you call comments by Mr. Sharp Phil such as.........

"That's what we call in this industry, "Faintly ridiculous."" referring to Mr. Chape'l's comments. If that isn't disrespectful, I don't know what is.

or.....

"one can safely dismiss the speaker as full of crap"

This I suppose is a good way to talk to an obvious Kenpo Senior that is well more known and respected than some unknown Phil dude? Right!

or the sarcastic.....
"Only Secret Squirrels with Ultra Grade Decoder Ring Clearance are allowed this Incredibly Secret Knowledge"

Originally posted by MisterMike
I can't write nearly as clearly so he doesn't need me to come to his defense.

Agreed, as you say, he speaks clearly what he wants to say. Is he so stupid not to expect responses? What ever the attitude .... so the response.

Originally posted by MisterMike
People are coming on who hadn't commented earlier only to band together and attack his credibility.

All triggered by The masterful Sharp Phil's words.

Originally posted by MisterMike
I think we as martial artists have some professional responsibility to post respectfully. It's good to disagree.

Does he know or realize that? Especially with a string such as.....

"Please don't waste any more of our time trying to tell us that the circular movements you practice have some magical mystery tour quality to them that makes them infinitely superior to everyone else's, but that we'll have to just smile and nod because you can't explain, wink-wink, nudge-nudge, salute-and-go-home. It's tiresome and silly".

Personally I don't care for his style, writing or otherwise.

thanks

 

[MisterMike]

Well, I think that by that point, the discussion was pretty far gone. But I found the secret squirrel comments ammusing actually. It's remeniscent of schools I have seen that dangle a carrot of "hidden secrets."

I'm not even going to go into the order of who said what, because anyone can read the posts and see when everyone piled on.

OH, and I hope my flamer comment didnt come off as homophobic or anything. I meant it as the geek term for what happens on threads like this.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by MisterMike
I found the secret squirrel comments ammusing ac

Actually, so did I, but the rest of his commentary could have been worded much nicer even if he disagreed with someone, what he posted was unnecessary, and attacking (IMHO).

 

[Doc]

I think Mr. Conaster said it well. If I may paraphrase; "If you take a shot at someone, don't be surprised when they shoot back."

 

[Michael Billings]

Please, keep the conversation on topic..

-Michael Billings
-MT Moderator-