Groundfighting in karate

[MattJ]

Sorry but it is what it is. I could give you some pieces or descriptions but I just don't see the point, I won't convince anyone who believes otherwise and the argument is boring...

Why don't you humor us for the hell of it.

 

[Makalakumu]

Just to show that a sprawl isn't the only defense against a shoot, here's a slick little number that will put you in the mount if you roll with it.

 

[Jim Greenwood]

Karate and katas are how you perceive them and how much you want it to be. Do you honestly think karate practitioners back in the day didn’t go to the ground and finished every fight standing and that a real fight then was that much different than a fight of today? A lot of the real essence of karate has been lost… I’m sure they weren’t idiots and they showed how moves from katas can be done from the ground and were practiced and taught as so. I know I teach them that way… Even if it was that way and they didn’t do any ground fighting at all back then which I doubt… Why worry about what they did back then and just use what you train to prepare you for everything you can for today’s society.

 

[PictonMA]

Not hard at all to describe several options besides sprawling when someone shoots in on you for a single or double leg takedown.

* Knee to the head
* Downward elbow to the top of the head
* Guillotine choke
* Front kick to the face
* Evade / sidestep and kick
* Tomoenage

As with sprawling, success will depend on both the person shooting in and the person attempting to avoid being taken down....

 

[Explorer]

I don't know, maybe I'm old-fashioned ... but when my youngsters try doubles or singles I find a good old cross-face works wonders. There is nothing like giving your opponent a view of his own hind quarters to peel him off you ... now his center line is facing away from you and you're behind him ... I THINK that's a good thing, right?


xo

 

[chinto]

Okinawan Karateka faced Jujitsu trained men in combat that was to the death... do you really think that there are not methods that work well that are not allowed in sport fighting like the UFC and such???!!??
when its for real, fights are over in seconds, not minutes, not 5 or 15 minutes.. but seconds!!!!

Okinawan Karate has brakes throws locks, chokes and strikes. it always has had them.. it is about survival.. not sport games.

The military has done some research and found that from first sight of the opponent, in any kind of hand to hand fight, they will take less then 30 seconds from first sight till some one is crippled or dead!......... and they also found that the most often out come was death... and usually in the first 5 to 8 seconds...

Traditional Japanese Jujitsu is not like BJJ its not about going to the ground and laying on your back to fight! that lets the other guys buddies kick your head in or cut it off!!!! they usually went to one knee from what several JJ types have told me. and I believe them.. just as Aikido and most traditional Jujitsu systems at least do, they stayed mobile and lethal... and they did their best to finish the fight while they were standing and the other was not, if they could not finish it while both were standing.
THAT IS HISTORICAL FACT! because stupid games get you killed when its not about entertainment, but about who is still alive in 10 to say 12 seconds on the out side!

 

[DavidCC]

Not hard at all to describe several options besides sprawling when someone shoots in on you for a single or double leg takedown.

* Knee to the head
* Downward elbow to the top of the head
* Guillotine choke
* Front kick to the face
* Evade / sidestep and kick
* Tomoenage

As with sprawling, success will depend on both the person shooting in and the person attempting to avoid being taken down....

I don't know, maybe I'm old-fashioned ... but when my youngsters try doubles or singles I find a good old cross-face works wonders. There is nothing like giving your opponent a view of his own hind quarters to peel him off you ... now his center line is facing away from you and you're behind him ... I THINK that's a good thing, right?


xo

I would like to ADD to what you all have posted and say that these methods are good but you have to address the forward momentum of the attacker in a systematic and anatomically effective manner. Once you do that all fo these are MONEY

 

[Explorer]

I would like to ADD to what you all have posted and say that these methods are good but you have to address the forward momentum of the attacker in a systematic and anatomically effective manner. Once you do that all fo these are MONEY

Now you've piqued my interest. Forward Momentum. Forward momentum ... forward momentum ... If the attacker is tackling you then forward momentum is most definitely a concern. However, if we're looking at a classical single or double ... the attacker is closing distance, dropping his center low, putting his hips under his shoulders and either picking you up to dump you or basically tripping you (I always hook an ankle behind my singles ... makes things MUCH easier). So, in a classical single or double forward momentum is less of a concern.

All that being said the placement of the defenders hips is exceedingly important. A lot of grappling arts use the sprawl ... I used to use the 'Pancake' to great effect. In the pancake you allow the attacker to penetrate a bit to get them to commit fully to the technique then you sprawl on the back of their head and shoulders ... you press your chest into their back and arch your back to maximize the impact. I've seen matches and fights end at this point. If that's the 'sprawl' we're talking about, it's a great technique.

However, if you take this to the mat (ground) you've given up your feet and, in my experience, attackers come with buddies. If you're young and fit you can bounce up pretty quickly ... but as we age ....

I use a hybrid technique these days the both holds off the attacker and leaves me standing. At the attacker shoots, I place my hands or forearms on his shoulders and shoot my hips back ... I'm on the balls of my feet, driving the attackers upper body toward the ground. Once I've nullified his attack ... I stand up by pressing on him. Unless I think I can finish an attacker with the take down or throw ... my tendency is to stay off the ground.

xo

 

[DavidCC]

Now you've piqued my interest. Forward Momentum. Forward momentum ... forward momentum ... If the attacker is tackling you then forward momentum is most definitely a concern. However, if we're looking at a classical single or double ... the attacker is closing distance, dropping his center low, putting his hips under his shoulders and either picking you up to dump you or basically tripping you (I always hook an ankle behind my singles ... makes things MUCH easier). So, in a classical single or double forward momentum is less of a concern.

All that being said the placement of the defenders hips is exceedingly important. A lot of grappling arts use the sprawl ... I used to use the 'Pancake' to great effect. In the pancake you allow the attacker to penetrate a bit to get them to commit fully to the technique then you sprawl on the back of their head and shoulders ... you press your chest into their back and arch your back to maximize the impact. I've seen matches and fights end at this point. If that's the 'sprawl' we're talking about, it's a great technique.

However, if you take this to the mat (ground) you've given up your feet and, in my experience, attackers come with buddies. If you're young and fit you can bounce up pretty quickly ... but as we age ....

I use a hybrid technique these days the both holds off the attacker and leaves me standing. At the attacker shoots, I place my hands or forearms on his shoulders and shoot my hips back ... I'm on the balls of my feet, driving the attackers upper body toward the ground. Once I've nullified his attack ... I stand up by pressing on him. Unless I think I can finish an attacker with the take down or throw ... my tendency is to stay off the ground.

xo

interesting post, I think you'll see Chuck Liddell using that same kind of sprawl.

"However, if we're looking at a classical single or double ... the attacker is closing distance," the window is smaller but it is there....

 

[chinto]

interesting post, I think you'll see Chuck Liddell using that same kind of sprawl.

"However, if we're looking at a classical single or double ... the attacker is closing distance," the window is smaller but it is there....

a lot of the "shoots" in UFC are only able to be done with any kind of safety or real effectiveness by and large because of the rules. they always put a knee down so they do not get kneed in the face or kicked in the head.. and you can not bring an elbow down on the cervical spine or back of the head. the UFC is not ultimate. it is however about as far as you want to go with out crippling or killing people. in real combat people get crippled and killed in seconds, and that would not be entertaining to watch.

 

[Errant108]

How much real combat have you experienced?

 

[Brian S]

How much real combat have you experienced?

Yeah, I hear ya. Death and crippling occuring in real combat in seconds is a bit of a stretch don't you think. Unless you are involving weapons ofcourse.

 

[chinto]

How much real combat have you experienced?

i have had to fight for my life 2 times.. hope never to have to again. its not fun!! how many times have you been in a fight you were convinced your life was at stake with out question?