Groundfighting in karate

[Brian S]

It is my belief that there is no such thing, specifically applications or interpretations of kata moves. However, I have had a long ongoing discussion of such a thing with a fellow that practices Matsubyashi Shorin-Ryu. I cannot find any sources that remotely suggest this pre-1991 when ultimate fighting burst on the scene.

I have known some people who claim to "see" the front stance as a sprawl, crossing the legs in Naihanchi as a closed guard, and silly things such as this.

There is nothing wrong with integrating groundfighting into your karate,but to change history and claim it has always been there is just wrong imo.

Anyone have experience with this? Opinions?

 

[MJS]

It is my belief that there is no such thing, specifically applications or interpretations of kata moves. However, I have had a long ongoing discussion of such a thing with a fellow that practices Matsubyashi Shorin-Ryu. I cannot find any sources that remotely suggest this pre-1991 when ultimate fighting burst on the scene.

I have known some people who claim to "see" the front stance as a sprawl, crossing the legs in Naihanchi as a closed guard, and silly things such as this.

There is nothing wrong with integrating groundfighting into your karate,but to change history and claim it has always been there is just wrong imo.

Anyone have experience with this? Opinions?

I've had discussions just like this with my fellow Kenpoists. Now, I've always felt that there are applications to certain things in kata. Is whats contained the end all, be all of fighting? IMHO, no, although some will disagree, and thats fine. The thing is, people need to dig and look for the moves, as many times, they're not apparent at first glance.

As far as Kenpo goes...well, I'll use this clip as an example. The Kenpo technique, Crashing Elbows, for a rear bear hug and Locked Wing, for a rear arm lock, are used here for a guard escape. A valid move? Sure. But, for myself, I feel that there are limitations. If one really wants to get a better understanding of something, you're going to have to go to the source, such as a BJJ school, Sambo, Judo, etc.

So, my experience with this is that I've said many times that the grappling in Kenpo either isnt there or its limited, while others insist that it is there, you just need to look. I've played with other Kenpo techs. and have found some variations, but, as I said, I prefer to expand my moves by looking elsewhere.

Personally, I find that BJJ and Kenpo blend very well together.

Mike

 

[arnisador]

I'm sure you can find a way to shoehorn some techniques in kata in as groundfighting moves, but if your art doesn't include free-grappling practice, it isn't teaching groundfighting. I don't believe groundfighting is there. Some standing grappling, yes--on the ground, no.

 

[Jin Gang]

Karate has kicks. You can deliver kicks from the ground. Therefore every kick in a kata is potentially a ground fighting technique. Right?

This is how I see the argument for groundfighting in kata, in a nutshell. If the kata was intended to teach principles of delivering ground-based techniques, they would be practiced on the ground. Karate's basics would include breakfall techniques, moving from a prone/supine position, and fighting from that position.
there are a couple kata I know that have techniques delivered from a low to the ground position, kusanku and shotokan's unsu spring to mind. But these are kicks/sweeps, not wrestling/grappling moves. That's a total of two ground techniques in all of karate, and I don't see people including them in kihon.
This is not to say that you couldn't start practicing this way, and integrate groundfighting/wrestling into your karate, but I don't think it's something the kata teaches in any meaningful way.

If anyone in Okinawa had been practicing that way in the past, they didn't teach Americans any of their ground fighting skills, and never demonstrated them.

 

[cstanley]

Karate is primarily atemi. There are jujutsu and tui te type techniques and some takedowns, but no grappling like you think of in judo or jujutsu. Those who insist that there are ground techniques in karate are reaching.

 

[Makalakumu]

Karate is primarily a standing art. It shows how to throw or pin someone to the ground or strike them on the ground, but not how to out and out roll. This doens't mean that some of the locks couldn't be used on the ground however.

The Okinawans did have a native wrestling style, so I have read, it was called Tegumi. According to some, this was heavily practiced throughout Okinawa and most karateka had a background in it.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I've had discussions just like this with my fellow Kenpoists. Now, I've always felt that there are applications to certain things in kata. Is whats contained the end all, be all of fighting? IMHO, no, although some will disagree, and thats fine. The thing is, people need to dig and look for the moves, as many times, they're not apparent at first glance.

As far as Kenpo goes...well, I'll use this clip as an example. The Kenpo technique, Crashing Elbows, for a rear bear hug and Locked Wing, for a rear arm lock, are used here for a guard escape. A valid move? Sure. But, for myself, I feel that there are limitations. If one really wants to get a better understanding of something, you're going to have to go to the source, such as a BJJ school, Sambo, Judo, etc.

So, my experience with this is that I've said many times that the grappling in Kenpo either isnt there or its limited, while others insist that it is there, you just need to look. I've played with other Kenpo techs. and have found some variations, but, as I said, I prefer to expand my moves by looking elsewhere.

Personally, I find that BJJ and Kenpo blend very well together.

Mike

BJJ blends very nicely with most systems. That is truly a strength of BJJ.

 

[eyebeams]

Early karateka traditionally competed in sport grappling, in what is now called "Okinawan sumo," though it is not actually sumo. The Bubishi has some descriptions of takedowns and sporadic ground methods, but no systematic position game.

If you want to train like a "traditional" karateka, take up Western wrestling, as the rules are similar to Okinawan wrestling. I know a few training games designed to work this.

 

[punisher73]

It's one thing to apply certain principles to your art to groundfighting so the students have something to base it on. I used a front stance as a sprawl type move against a wrestler and it worked out, I was never taught that move to do that, it was how my body reacted to the force of him rushing in. If I teach that type of thing now is it "adding it in" or is it expanding my knowledge of how something can be applied? On the other hand, I don't agree that doing a traditional form/kata like Naihanchi and saying that the crossover step is a closed guard. All of the katas have stand-up grappling etc. Is it wrong or incorrect to practice those locks on the ground and figure out to get a good position and apply them? Again, I don't think so.

There are two schools of thought, the principles/concepts of the kata that can be pulled out and applied to alot of things and then you have the literal interpretations of the moves. I think if you are going to use the concepts teach it as something like "Now in X kata you use your hip to offset their balance for the throw, now if you are taken to the ground and mounted, think of this concept and use it to do a hip escape." or something similiar. Point out the underlying concept and where it comes from, but don't say it's a "secret application" that is in the kata.

 

[Errant108]

It is my belief that there is no such thing, specifically applications or interpretations of kata moves. However, I have had a long ongoing discussion of such a thing with a fellow that practices Matsubyashi Shorin-Ryu. I cannot find any sources that remotely suggest this pre-1991 when ultimate fighting burst on the scene.

I have known some people who claim to "see" the front stance as a sprawl, crossing the legs in Naihanchi as a closed guard, and silly things such as this.

There is nothing wrong with integrating groundfighting into your karate,but to change history and claim it has always been there is just wrong imo.

Anyone have experience with this? Opinions?

There's no groundfighting in karate kata.

Just like there is often minimal groundfighting in traditional jujutsu kata.

Like jujutsu kata, karate kata contain many throwing and joint locking techniques.

From Koryu jujutsu, Kano comes along and synthesizes a system and methodology for training throws and locking techniques in an alive free setting, resulting in capable, confident fighters who defeated many koryu jujutsu stylists because of the practice of randori.

From this system of Judo, we also see the growth of Brazilian Jujutsu (sometimes called Basically Just Judo), which focused newaza, ground techniques, rather than standing throws. The majority of locks and submissions found in BJJ can be traced in one form or another, through Judo, to Koryu jujutsu. The innovation comes in the methodology in which these techniques are trained and applied.

There was no Kano for karate's techniques. Attempting to make the jump from kata bunkai to modern application without going through the decades of development and pressure testing that Judo and BJJ went through is ludicrous, because it more than just "let's do this technique on the ground". You need a solid understanding of the mechanics that make the ground different from standing on your feet.

Your best bet is to develop a good understanding of the bunkai in your kata, while crosstraining in Judo/BJJ/CAMBO, etc. Profit from the experience of others, and compare it with the things you find in your kata. From a solid background of experience (rather than theory), develop your own methodology. Until then, it's likely you're not grappling...you're just crappling...

 

[Makalakumu]

In order to give my students a background in grappling, I teach a combination of judo, BJJ and wrestling. Just some basics from the things that I've studied in the past. I find that it gives my students a better appreciation for remaining on one's feet.

 

[punisher73]

There's no groundfighting in karate kata.

Just like there is often minimal groundfighting in traditional jujutsu kata.

Like jujutsu kata, karate kata contain many throwing and joint locking techniques.

From Koryu jujutsu, Kano comes along and synthesizes a system and methodology for training throws and locking techniques in an alive free setting, resulting in capable, confident fighters who defeated many koryu jujutsu stylists because of the practice of randori.

From this system of Judo, we also see the growth of Brazilian Jujutsu (sometimes called Basically Just Judo), which focused newaza, ground techniques, rather than standing throws. The majority of locks and submissions found in BJJ can be traced in one form or another, through Judo, to Koryu jujutsu. The innovation comes in the methodology in which these techniques are trained and applied.

There was no Kano for karate's techniques. Attempting to make the jump from kata bunkai to modern application without going through the decades of development and pressure testing that Judo and BJJ went through is ludicrous, because it more than just "let's do this technique on the ground". You need a solid understanding of the mechanics that make the ground different from standing on your feet.

Your best bet is to develop a good understanding of the bunkai in your kata, while crosstraining in Judo/BJJ/CAMBO, etc. Profit from the experience of others, and compare it with the things you find in your kata. From a solid background of experience (rather than theory), develop your own methodology. Until then, it's likely you're not grappling...you're just crappling...

What's also interesting is HOW the groundfighting entered into Judo. Kano combined several styles of jujitsu and had challenge matches. Well, his students were beating everyone with their throws etc. One school, Fusen-ryu accepted the challenge and then when the match started just laid down on the mats. Kano's students had no idea how to fight on the ground or engage them and were defeated. Kano then learned from them and incorporated that into judo. It became a specialized branch known as Kosen Judo (Maeda was an expert in it and then taught it in Brazil to the Gracies).

Groundfighting has always been a subset of fighting skills and NOT the main focus because of it's limitations. Karate would have had the takedown skills (Look at the Bubishi and you will see single leg, double leg takedowns) and joint locks. But, in karate you would finish your opponent on the ground while you were still standing, you would not have gone down with them intentionally.

 

[DavidCC]

It seems to me that karate kata teach ways to stay on your feet against takedowns and throws.

I've also seen how the same movements can be applied to a variety of attacks punches, kicks, grabs of various kinds including grabbing of the legs and crashing of the body mass.

Attempting to make the jump from kata bunkai to modern application without going through the decades of development and pressure testing that Judo and BJJ went through is ludicrous

by "modern application" does that mean "sport grappling"? Because I think takedowns and groundfighting is hardly modern, and "decades" is a small sliver of the time that karate has been 'pressure tested'.

 

[Errant108]

by "modern application" does that mean "sport grappling"? Because I think takedowns and groundfighting is hardly modern, and "decades" is a small sliver of the time that karate has been 'pressure tested'.

I mean alive training, striking and grappling.

The majority of bunkai that we see being taught has not been pressure tested in an alive environment. You can tell just by looking at it.

 

[Makalakumu]

I mean alive training, striking and grappling.

The majority of bunkai that we see being taught has not been pressure tested in an alive environment. You can tell just by looking at it.

This, IMHO, is what many karate systems are missing. We don't live in a violent society, so the stuff can't get tested like it used to. This doesn't mean that its not impossible however. You don't have to beat the **** out of yourself or your partners in order to see if something works.

Look at what people in Judo, Wrestling, and BJJ are doing. They aren't going balls to the wall all of the time. They are providing varying degrees of resistence, though.

Always.

Karate bunkai need a little bit of bopping and knocking. Then take it to the ground and see how it works.

 

[Brian S]

Most of the thinking here is along the same lines as my own. Kata has grappling applications,locks,throws,etc..we all know this.

To train in BJJ or wrestle then go back and claim to "see" the movements in kata that were there all along is just rediculous. To then integrate groundfighting into your training is a good thing,but it wasn't always there.

 

[Hand Sword]

I don't know much about the history of this and that, or as much as most of you, so I'll play a little devil's advocate here. Taking the point of fighting, do we think people fought differently way back then as to now? Were the creators completely oblivious to ground fighting? I would venture to say no to both. Considering the creation came about due to a necessity of life and death, could it be possible that it was (is) in there and has just been lost due to the focus being standup? I dunno, I've never been a forms guy, I just don't think it would have been omitted due to the time and circumstances of it's creation and application. I sure groundfighting occurred in those many struggles as it does now. I don't think those early masters/experts would have been useless if taken down.
I dunno.....:idunno:

 

[DavidCC]

I mean alive training, striking and grappling.

The majority of bunkai that we see being taught has not been pressure tested in an alive environment. You can tell just by looking at it.

I guess that depends on your teacher. If he is showing you bunkai and you aren't putting them to the test, why are you complaining here and not looking for a school that does it the way you think it should be done?

Or have I misunderstood and when you say "see being taught" you mean in schools other than yours? if so, where do you see kata applications being taught if not at your own school? You Tube LOL???

 

[Errant108]

YouTube, meets with other practitioners, books, magazine articles, etc.

 

[Errant108]

I see you're lurking Shinbushi.

You can't hide from me.