ground fighting in wing chun

[drummingman]

thanks man.i did not take the comment personal.i just wanted to let peacewarrior know why i made this thread.it's because im such a newbe to the martial arts in general.thats why i've made a bunch of threads in a lot of different places asking so much about styles and what not.
i am looking into wing chun in my area.has anybody ever head of sifu randy williams? here is the link to the school http://www.virginia-wingchun.com
let me know what you all think.

 

[PeaceWarrior]

thanks man.i did not take the comment personal.i just wanted to let peacewarrior know why i made this thread.it's because im such a newbe to the martial arts in general.thats why i've made a bunch of threads in a lot of different places asking so much about styles and what not.
i am looking into wing chun in my area.has anybody ever head of sifu randy williams? here is the link to the school http://www.virginia-wingchun.com
let me know what you all think.

Hey man, thats cool, we are all learning I hope I didnt sound harsh.

I have heard of Randy Williams, I believe I have heard my Sifu talk about him. If I remember right, he is pretty high level instructor and if you study with him you will get *Real* wing chun. If you have the chance to train there, JUMP ON IT, I doubt youll find anything better in the same area.

You should start a new thread, I think this one is about out of gas

 

[ed-swckf]

I agree with you. There are principles that can be applied on the ground.
But when they are applied, people say "That's not Wing Chun, it's Brazilian Jujutsu or Turkish Wrestling". Which I think is just ignorant.

What people? Is that people within this discussion? or is it something you could provide sources for? or is it just people's opinions you have been exposed to over a period?

 

[ed-swckf]

There are a number fo very important points here:

What is Wing Chun??

1# to some it is simply a collection of techniques and principals.

2# to others it is a group of forms and nothing more

3# To others its is a principal in itself, a way of thinking that expresses itself in a fighting situation (I belong to this thrid group)

What is Ground Fighting??

To me ground fighting is a range that is available to every art, be it okinowan, be it kempo, be it Tai Chi, now although there are some arts that deal almost exclusivly with ground fighting, ground fighting is not exclusive to those arts.

The goal of a Martial Artist is to transcend the limitations of his own art, to lay hold on its fundamental expression, and learn how to adapt that into a fighting situation. If you look at your art purely in this manner you will loose long term, but if you learn how to lay hold of the essence of the art, and run with it, you will find that whether or not it is kicking, striking, Trapping, grappling, or ground range, you are able to take the tools and principals that you have extracted from your art and utilise them in this situation. Sure it may not be as effective as BJJ in that range, but that does not discount its effect.

Arguments such as WC is ineffective in Ground fightning (and even if this thread did not start in that vein it will get there) are moot, of course its effective, the question is not whether its effective, the question is its degree of effectiveness, when compared with specialist arts such as BJJ. But that is only one aspect, there is another.

In terms of the ground, each art has different goals and strategies wheree the ground is concerned, and it is in light of those goals that the art trains. For example in Wing Chun the goal is to control the fight so that you do not end up on the ground. Why? Because to truely be in control you must stay on your feet (unless you have the luxury of fighting one person only [a rarity in todays world] but if you end up on the ground there are a number of factors that you should take into consideration; Terrain (I dont like rolling around on broken glass); Possibility of multiple opponants When you go to ground there are a number of unkowns, that you need to be on guard against, thats why the goal in Wing Chun is stay of the ground, this is why the stance is meant to be developed properly, and the sui lum tao is so vitally important, many people underestimate the true nature of the SLT, but maybe that is a good thing. However if, if, you do end up on the ground then you must be prepared to do what you must to get back on your feet not stay on the ground. Now BJJ may have a different goal, but that is BJJ, not Wing Chun.

I consider myself onder the 3rd definition also and i agree with the content of this post.

 

[Shogun]

wow cool someone gave me a negative point on my post. now, as far as I know, I was simply recalling my exp. and not attacking anyone. ...

 

[Shogun]

Oh, and if anyone has ever listened to the gracie's talk, they WANT grappling to be added.

I think (even as a GJJ guy) its a bold statement to say there is NO grappling in WC, there is probably grappling in EVERY martial art. after all it is part of fighting, that can't be argued. its just when certain schools are doing very obvious BJJ/shootfighting etc in there curriculum.

another thing I hear is how similar BJJand other grappling styles are to the stand-up concepts of WC. sure they may look the same, but honestly there is only so many ways you can move the human body. just because reach behind the sofa looks the same as a breast stroke doesnt mean they are the same.

 

[drummingman]

i just read a good article in kung fu magazine on ground fighting using wing chun.if you can check it out.it was good.

 

[Si-Je]

Koroho is correct.
Sifu Emin Boztepe started the whole Wing Tsun ground fighting techniques, and principles. This was almost 10 years ago. It helped to cause the rift between him and Leung Ting. Unfortunately, not every school utilizes these techniques in their training. And the WT groundfighting is nothing like BJJ. It's basically striking on the ground, there's very little "grappling" or grabbing the opponent on the ground. Their are joint locks and such, but these are present in WT's stand up techniques already. Many people don't understand the anti-grappling, and won't even try it. They have already made up their minds one way or the other.

I didn't think it was such a big deal when I started WC training with my teacher and husband. He was a student and SiHing of Emin's for 4-5 years. I just thought that it was part of WT.
But, traditionally, it's not. It is a new development in the art and very controversial. People say, that's not wing chun, becuse it doesn't fit into what they know and think of as wing chun. As my teacher and his teacher say, wing chun is an ever evolving and changing art. It was designed to adapt and so should the students.
I've trained a bit and used the WT groundfighting in some sparring, and it works for me great. The concepts and principles are still there in the groundfighting (and to me, that's the important part) we utilize chi sau while mounted by a striking opponent, or a grappling one it works whether they grab your wrists, arms, or try to strike you. We utilze the basic stance to keep the "grappler" out from between your legs or what they call a "guard", so you can roll them off you easier, and keep them from choking you out or armbaring you.
I had a kid pick me up from his "mount" position and try to arm bar me while standing up, I simply let him pick me up off the ground and climbed up him as he tried to armbar, thus he couldn't armbar. His other option, put me back on the ground, or have me hanging on him all day, plus he just really helped me get back to my feet again. There wasn't a whole lot he could do to me. You stay relaxed (a grappler loves a stiff and resisting opponent, makes the techiques easier), you flow with the opponents energy, you maintain centerline, you use yap gar and such with the legs, chi sau with the arms. etc.