ground fighting in wing chun

[KOROHO]

"A feeble attempt by their own admission into the History of the Art Of Wing Chun,let alone any credible first hand documents or proof.Most professors in China would discount this charitable attempt of humor. To manipulate the masses as the author is clearly demonstrating himself as an authority.Is at the very least criminal. In the foreward they claim no reference or footnotes. They also are taking that to the next step as if to say,on one hand this is the truth, and yet on the other claiming they are not sure. The author attempts yet again to manipulate the facts...Not that any were found. Yes we can all tell stories.
I would have likened to see this in the FICTION section of the library. One must remember to be more questioning and observant.
At best they allowed themselves to be caught up in story telling and have done little to present the hard facts. They have also left out many other stylists within the same art. I find that to be misleading and a Definative Lack of knowledge of the art they proclaim to know so well. Very contradicting."

Plus, I forgot to ask of those who offer this sad piece of work as the bible of WIng Chun: Is there anything in here that says there is no ground fighting in Wing Chun, or that Wing Chun ideas can not be applied to ground work?

 

[elder999]

Plus, I forgot to ask of those who offer this sad piece of work as the bible of WIng Chun: Is there anything in here that says there is no ground fighting in Wing Chun, or that Wing Chun ideas can not be applied to ground work?

It's one thing to quote a reveiew, and another to quote it without provenance-which "known authority" on wing chun are you quoting there.

As for your "already low opinion" of me-it's neither here nor there-I merely offered what was my opinion of the book. For what it's worth, I'm somewhat in agreement with you. I'd point to where I've quoted you above, and point out that there is a different between Wing Chun having groundfighting, and applying Wing Chun principles on the ground, the latter of which I have said (just a few posts ago) sounds sensible to me.

And, not to be didactic, but others have pointed out that Yip Man aught no groundfighting. Indeed, the entire curriculum consists of siu lum tau, chum kiu, bui gee, loo dim boon kwan, and bot chum do along with the mook yan jong and chi sau. WHile there is grappling almost throughout, and a variety of principles that can be successfully applied on the ground-in fact,lately I've been noticing a lot of biu gee from my guard or when I'm mounted- there is no groundfighting per se.

 

[KOROHO]

"WHile there is grappling almost throughout, and a variety of principles that can be successfully applied on the ground-in fact,lately I've been noticing a lot of biu gee from my guard or when I'm mounted"

This seems to be telling me that there IS groundfighting.

Just because someone doesn't take you by the hand and show you all the possible ways to apply the conecepts that they teach you, does not mean there are definite limits set.

If the only way to get "ground fighting" from Wing Chun is to take a different art and mix it in, then I would say there is no groundfighting. But if you can get on the ground and execute techniques without violating the principles of Wing Chun, then you are doing Wing Chun only on the ground instead of standing up.

If you are "seeing the Wing Chun" in the grappling, then maybe you have learned something.

I never was really able to bunkai karate kata until after I learned Jujutsu. Then I learned to look at the kata a different way and found a lot of grappling on my own, including ground work. The same for Taichi. I learned a form and used what I learned in other arts, primarily Aikido and Hakko Ryu, to discern the applications. A little bit of knowledge and some applied thinking can go a long way.

 

[ed-swckf]

these threads always go to the dogs. Wing chun can be used standing up, sitting down, on the ground or even in the sky free falling. I think the communication within this thread is becoming poor and we are taking ground fighting to understandably mean a different bag of tools then the regular wing chun stuff. I don't think anyone can dispute that its possible to use many fighting arts in ground positions whilst they are traditionally trained standing.

As for the book, it gives recognition and provides insight to less popular branches of wing chun which is a good thing. How many books offer this on the market?

 

[arnisador]

Plus, I forgot to ask of those who offer this sad piece of work as the bible of WIng Chun: Is there anything in here that says there is no ground fighting in Wing Chun, or that Wing Chun ideas can not be applied to ground work?

You might wish to peruse it at a bookstore (it's still available) to see. It lists the full curriculum of many styles of WC. None include groundfighting.

But, that book was but one example. I know of no book or video on WC groundfighting; not even Joseph Smith's, which has more than usual standing grappling. When I studied WC, the instructor advised studying BJJ so as to cover that angle. WC is good at what it does...which, according to my instructor at the time (last year), was standing close-in fighting.

 

[KOROHO]

I seriuosly doubt that it lists the full curriculum of all Wing Chun.
Plus, does it specifically state that there is no ground fighting ever? Does it say that you can never take these principles and apply them to the ground? Did Yip Man tell his students to go train with someone else if they wanted to learn a complete martial art?

Sure, Wing Chun is primarily a standing art. That is because people most often fiht standing up. If you know how to fight standing up, then you don't need to go to the ground. I'd much rather put my attacker on the ground and stay standing myself.
But that does not mean there is no ground fighting in the arts I teach.

Never have I been taught 2 joint locks and have been told "This one is for standing and this one is for on the ground". Take, the elbow - it only bends one way. Bend it the other way and it causes pain as it hyperextends. This works standing or on the ground. It's sad that you can learn a standing arm bar from one guy then have to leave the school and pay someone else to show you how to do the same armbar on the ground.


Grappling is grappling, whether you call it Wing Chun or BJJ.
Like Elder999 said, he can see the applications of the Wing Chun forms in his ground fighting.
I don't see any sense in saying "when I do this technqiue standing it's Wing Chun, when I do it on the ground it's BJJ". Wing Chun is Wing Chun no matter where you are.

It may have taken someone to study another style to learn how to apply the concepts from Wing Chun, but they were there all along.

 

[monji112000]

KOROHO,

"WHile there is grappling almost throughout, and a variety of principles that can be successfully applied on the ground-in fact,lately I've been noticing a lot of biu gee from my guard or when I'm mounted"
This seems to be telling me that there IS groundfighting.

How do you define grappling?
Wikipedia does as follows:
Grappling refers to the gripping, handling and controlling of an opponent without the use of striking, typically through the application of various grappling holds and counters to various hold attempts.

If you consider a lop sao, or a controlling hand as grappling then sure Wing Chun has grappling. But you are talking about chokes, locks, and other BJJ,MMA,wrestling moves.. no it doesn't. People have added them in from other styles.

Just because someone doesn't take you by the hand and show you all the possible ways to apply the concepts that they teach you, does not mean there are definite limits set.
If the only way to get "ground fighting" from Wing Chun is to take a different art and mix it in, then I would say there is no groundfighting. But if you can get on the ground and execute techniques without violating the principles of Wing Chun, then you are doing Wing Chun only on the ground instead of standing up.

that's true no one is defining limits per say, but honestly unless you have some background in wrestling or any ground skill you will be very limited in what you can do.

its like telling someone who is a master a chess to be successful in the business world. of course you can use 100% of your chess mastery.. but unless you have some basic skill to work with.. you won't be "good" or successful in the business world. If you don't know economics, ect.. your chess skills will never translate. BUT, if you have a MBA and you are a master chess tactician.. you are probably going to be a force to fear in the Business world.

Basic eye/neck gouging and basic covering is one thing. But to pretend that you can protect yourself 90% of the time in a ground situation is a very different thing.

People train their whole life to master this type of fighting.. you think that someone can just fluff through it?

Its like a wrestler pretending he can just fluff his way through boxing/stand up striking.. its just no that simple.


being able to avoid going to the ground is cover in Wing Chun, and can be suplimented easily with basic wrestling skills. JMO
:soapbox:

 

[Andrew Green]

i know that i keep asking about this in a bunch of styles.the reason is because to me it seems that a system is not really complete without ground self defense.
so,does wing chun have ground fighting in it?
by the way,check out this website of a place near me that teaches this style.its got a ton on info on it,except for answering the question im asking here. http://www.shaolinkungfucenter.com/main.html
please let me know what you think of this school.

No, there is no Ground work in Wing Chun. Some people want there system to be everything to everyone, those people tend to come across as rather insecure in what they are doing. No system is "complete", No system is "Best for everyone" and anyone that tells you otherwise is either lieing, or failing to grasp reality.

The truth is we all train for different reasons, with different goals and different interests. Different systems specialize in different things, just like being in school.

If Math is important too you, taking a liberal arts degree is probably not the best route. If you want to go into Engineering, you should probably not enroll in Fine arts.

Different arts for different goals, no system does everything. And IMO systems would be much better off in focusing on what they do well, not trying to encorporate everything with a "Yeah, well we got that too so " attitude.

Wing Chun does certain things very well, other things moderatley well, and others not at all. Ground fighting is generally on the list of "not at all." Same for every reputable system out there.

Follow your interests, chances are you will never "need it" anyways. Unless of course your lifestyle dictates it (LEO, Security, etc.) in which case you probably know exactly what you need from talking to others in the same situation already.

 

[MJS]

Mod. Note.
Please, return to the original topic.

-Mike Slosek
-MT Super Moderator-

 

[bcbernam777]

No, there is no Ground work in Wing Chun. Some people want there system to be everything to everyone, those people tend to come across as rather insecure in what they are doing. No system is "complete", No system is "Best for everyone" and anyone that tells you otherwise is either lieing, or failing to grasp reality.

The truth is we all train for different reasons, with different goals and different interests. Different systems specialize in different things, just like being in school.

If Math is important too you, taking a liberal arts degree is probably not the best route. If you want to go into Engineering, you should probably not enroll in Fine arts.

Different arts for different goals, no system does everything. And IMO systems would be much better off in focusing on what they do well, not trying to encorporate everything with a "Yeah, well we got that too so " attitude.

Wing Chun does certain things very well, other things moderatley well, and others not at all. Ground fighting is generally on the list of "not at all." Same for every reputable system out there.

Follow your interests, chances are you will never "need it" anyways. Unless of course your lifestyle dictates it (LEO, Security, etc.) in which case you probably know exactly what you need from talking to others in the same situation already.

Ah Mr Green, I knew you wouldn't be too far away

 

[bcbernam777]

Koroho, you seem to be trying to get a rise out of people or something? You talk about sources in Wing Chun, Who are they???? As for ground fighting, the answer is simple, there is no formalised gr4ound fighting in Wing Chun, there are however a number of principles, in particular from the Bui Jee that can be utilised in a ground fighting situation. Where do I get my source from. My Sifu is Fung Ping Bor i.e. Derek Fung direct student of Yip Man's.

 

[KOROHO]

there are however a number of principles, in particular from the Bui Jee that can be utilised in a ground fighting situation.

I agree with you. There are principles that can be applied on the ground.
But when they are applied, people say "That's not Wing Chun, it's Brazilian Jujutsu or Turkish Wrestling". Which I think is just ignorant.

The bottom line is, from the very first time I ever experienced Wing Chun, I understood there to be ground fighting and that was long before any one in this country ever heard of the gracies.

I learned some Wing Tsun from a group of Leung Ting's people, including Emin Boztepe, at a string of seminars the group held over the course of a year. Plus I have been to various other seminars with others from other associations. It was Emin that first put out the idea of ground fighting when he was discussing the various ranges of fighting. Other groups teach the same forms, so I always assumed if one group has ground fighting then the others do to.

I supposed Wing Chun could have ended up like Okinawan Karate with some people being taught applications of the forms (bunkai) and others not. There are all sort of people who claim there is no grappling or ground techniques in Karate kata. And they are just as plain wrong as those who disagree with you saying there is not in Wing Chun.

 

[bcbernam777]

I agree with you. There are principles that can be applied on the ground.
But when they are applied, people say "That's not Wing Chun, it's Brazilian Jujutsu or Turkish Wrestling". Which I think is just ignorant.

The bottom line is, from the very first time I ever experienced Wing Chun, I understood there to be ground fighting and that was long before any one in this country ever heard of the gracies.

I learned some Wing Tsun from a group of Leung Ting's people, including Emin Boztepe, at a string of seminars the group held over the course of a year. Plus I have been to various other seminars with others from other associations. It was Emin that first put out the idea of ground fighting when he was discussing the various ranges of fighting. Other groups teach the same forms, so I always assumed if one group has ground fighting then the others do to.

I supposed Wing Chun could have ended up like Okinawan Karate with some people being taught applications of the forms (bunkai) and others not. There are all sort of people who claim there is no grappling or ground techniques in Karate kata. And they are just as plain wrong as those who disagree with you saying there is not in Wing Chun.

There are a number fo very important points here:

What is Wing Chun??

1# to some it is simply a collection of techniques and principals.

2# to others it is a group of forms and nothing more

3# To others its is a principal in itself, a way of thinking that expresses itself in a fighting situation (I belong to this thrid group)

What is Ground Fighting??

To me ground fighting is a range that is available to every art, be it okinowan, be it kempo, be it Tai Chi, now although there are some arts that deal almost exclusivly with ground fighting, ground fighting is not exclusive to those arts.

The goal of a Martial Artist is to transcend the limitations of his own art, to lay hold on its fundamental expression, and learn how to adapt that into a fighting situation. If you look at your art purely in this manner you will loose long term, but if you learn how to lay hold of the essence of the art, and run with it, you will find that whether or not it is kicking, striking, Trapping, grappling, or ground range, you are able to take the tools and principals that you have extracted from your art and utilise them in this situation. Sure it may not be as effective as BJJ in that range, but that does not discount its effect.

Arguments such as WC is ineffective in Ground fightning (and even if this thread did not start in that vein it will get there) are moot, of course its effective, the question is not whether its effective, the question is its degree of effectiveness, when compared with specialist arts such as BJJ. But that is only one aspect, there is another.

In terms of the ground, each art has different goals and strategies wheree the ground is concerned, and it is in light of those goals that the art trains. For example in Wing Chun the goal is to control the fight so that you do not end up on the ground. Why? Because to truely be in control you must stay on your feet (unless you have the luxury of fighting one person only [a rarity in todays world] but if you end up on the ground there are a number of factors that you should take into consideration; Terrain (I dont like rolling around on broken glass); Possibility of multiple opponants When you go to ground there are a number of unkowns, that you need to be on guard against, thats why the goal in Wing Chun is stay of the ground, this is why the stance is meant to be developed properly, and the sui lum tao is so vitally important, many people underestimate the true nature of the SLT, but maybe that is a good thing. However if, if, you do end up on the ground then you must be prepared to do what you must to get back on your feet not stay on the ground. Now BJJ may have a different goal, but that is BJJ, not Wing Chun.

 

[Sidi Kurtis]

^^ Well Put!

 

[PeaceWarrior]

How come the only threads that get attention in Wing Chun have to do with groundfighting. I dont see any threads on "how to deal with punches" in the grappling or jujitsu forums...

Cant we just talk about Wing Chun? Sure some grappling would be a good thing to know, but if thats what is important to you, then maybe you should take a class for grappling?

 

[drummingman]

wow.you all have covered a lot of ground (no pun intended) since i last checked in.
as someone who does not know anything about wing chun it does seem to me that all a person would have to do to make wing chun apply to the ground is parctice it on the ground to see what works.do you thing that a wing chun school/teacher would be cool with people doing that in their dojo? im speaking generally,i know that not every techer is the same.
it does seem strange that no wing chun techers have fleshed out ground fighting using the moves from wing chun.i think that would make for some interesting material.i say the same for every style of stand up fighting.it would be cool to see what those styles would look like on the ground.what i mean is not changing the moves drastically for the ground approach but just making whatever modifications that would need to be made to make the stand up techniques work on the ground.

 

[bcbernam777]

How come the only threads that get attention in Wing Chun have to do with groundfighting. I dont see any threads on "how to deal with punches" in the grappling or jujitsu forums...

Cant we just talk about Wing Chun? Sure some grappling would be a good thing to know, but if thats what is important to you, then maybe you should take a class for grappling?

Amen to that :soapbox:

 

[drummingman]

the reason why i asked about ground fighting in wing chun is because i did not know if it existed or not.being new to the martial arts i was just trying to get some info.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

How come the only threads that get attention in Wing Chun have to do with groundfighting. I dont see any threads on "how to deal with punches" in the grappling or jujitsu forums...

Cant we just talk about Wing Chun? Sure some grappling would be a good thing to know, but if thats what is important to you, then maybe you should take a class for grappling?

Nice post and very good advice!

 

[MJS]

the reason why i asked about ground fighting in wing chun is because i did not know if it existed or not.being new to the martial arts i was just trying to get some info.

I wouldn't take anything personal. The problem is, is that many times, a thread turns into a heated, non-productive argument, often leading to a number of off topic posts, as well as art bashing, which takes away from the original intent of the thread. Here are some other threads on a similar topic, regarding grappling and WC.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33437

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39194

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33953