Ground fighting choices -- Judo or BJJ?

[Brian S]

OK,

Beleive me I am not here to bash anyone's style, I am just a little confused by the idea of ippon, even in a sporting sense. Is the goal of ippon just to hold your opponent down for a certain amount of time? If so, what are you going to do with him then? In "sport" BJJ, you must actually cause your opponent enough pain that he submits for fear that you will either choke him unconcious or break a limb or joint if he doesn't give up fast enough. Granted, there are points and judges for matches where neither one can submit the other, it just seems that this is a more effective way to hone your combat skills than simply holding your opponent in a position where he can't move for awhile.

I don't understand the confusion, maybe the disagreement,but not confusion.
Judo is sport and sport has rules.Whether you agree with that sport and it's rules decides if you want to participate.
I don't really like point sparring of TKD,so I don't participate.
I think your understanding of judo's rules is limited,so it's kind of hard to judge.
Your personal goals dictate what you deem credible and worth participating in.
There no confusion about it imo, it just is what it is, sport.

If we are taking things to the SD level we need to add in a whole cluster of elements,but I won't get into that.

 

[allenjp]

I don't understand the confusion, maybe the disagreement,but not confusion.
Judo is sport and sport has rules.Whether you agree with that sport and it's rules decides if you want to participate.
I don't really like point sparring of TKD,so I don't participate.
I think your understanding of judo's rules is limited,so it's kind of hard to judge.
Your personal goals dictate what you deem credible and worth participating in.
There no confusion about it imo, it just is what it is, sport.

If we are taking things to the SD level we need to add in a whole cluster of elements,but I won't get into that.

The name of the thread is ground FIGHTING choices, I guess I just assumed that the poster wanted to know what was best in a FIGHT, to me a fight is not a sport. Hence the confusion...I was not saying anyone else should be confused, just that I was. We went from talking about fighting, to talking about rules, which IMO are mutually exclusive of each other. And BTW, I think that many judoka might take offense to your characterization of judo as only a sport. Many of them practice judo for SD purposes and think many of it's techniques highly useful for that purpose. I would tend to agree with them.

 

[vankuen]

I don't care if someone thinks it's just sport or not, as I tend to think that combat sports are more likely to provide skills that will provide a higher ratio of success in real combat application. The reason being is that combat sports constantly pressure test against resisting opponents. So sport orientated or not, the natural attributes and skills will more likely be successful than if you were taking a typical school with unrealistic training practices. It's been proven time and again. I would bet on a sport fighter every time over a "traditional" stylist any day.

That's why I started up with Judo anyway...to compliment all my standup fighting and to bridge the gap between standup and submission grappling. I also like that I can go full out with someone and not worry about either one of us really getting hurt...whereas in striking arts if we go full out...someone is likely getting hurt. Who wants to look like Ed Norton in fight club going to work? :wink2:

 

[Ybot]

It is a good idea to have other options available than just permanently disabling or killing your opponent. I have never wanted to study MA to bully people around, and in my opinion, a higher percentage of BJJers study for this reason than in other arts.

I truly don't believe that BJJ is worse as far as bullying than any other martial art. I have seen traditional Karate schools, kung fu schools, and boxing clubs that encourage that as much or more than the worst BJJ club I have ever heard of. The problem IMO is the advertisement of the Gracie challenge as a marketing tool. It made BJJ one of the most popular martial arts around, but also left us with a reputation that I believe is unfair.

 

[Drac]

Yes Judo teaches a ton of ground fighting, however they are taught as followups to the throw that took their opponent down.

For instance the following techniques are an example: Floating hip throw to ground arm bar.

Rodrigo told me himself that he doesn't teach much on how to fall, nor off balance from the standing.

Whereas in arts like hapkido and judo, if you are on the ground then you are more than likely loosing.

The person who taught Helio was a student of the Japanese national champ as well as Jigoro Kano's student.

So really to me and from what I have seen of BJJ it is a watered down version of Traditional Kodokan Judo.

I will say this with certainty that in a fight, not a cage......unless we are both in gi's, there is no blue belt on the planet that will beat me.

Sorry, just my opinion.

Good post....

 

[Bodhisattva]

I'd like to learn a little more about Judo and how it differs from BJJ or Jiu-jitsu.

I'm looking at studying the ground game, having been doing standup for the past 25 years or so, I figure it's about time to get good at it. I took a look at some of the Judo vids and BJJ vids on youtube and don't really see too much of a difference in things...aside from better throws in judo and perhaps more technical prowess on the ground with BJJ.

Is that about right in the most simplistic of differences?

Definitely BJJ - Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is not restricted by rules that downplay Newaza. Also, pinning and hold-downs are just set-ups for submissions in BJJ.

Judo isn't a bad second choice, however. I like Judo a lot - great art.

 

[matt.m]

Definitely BJJ - Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is not restricted by rules that downplay Newaza. Also, pinning and hold-downs are just set-ups for submissions in BJJ.

Judo isn't a bad second choice, however. I like Judo a lot - great art.

Sorry sir but we must agree to diisagree. BJJ is a good art yes, but as compared to Judo it is nothing but 1/3 of cirriculum. I don't know, I just think that BJJ is "The best pancakes ever made" all thanks to the UFC. However one of the creators of the UFC got beat at UFC 3, and lost to Matt Hughes, a wrestler.

I would love to see Karo Paryisian vs. one of the Gracie's, I don't care who in a gi match and see who won that one. I mean Karo is a great cage fighter and he stuck only to his judo roots.

Japanese JiuJitsu is amazing, like the founding Kwans in Hapkido. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu to Japanese JiuJitsu is comparing an apple to an orange. It is a dumbed down version of "Favorite Techniques" by the gracies.

 

[allenjp]

Sorry sir but we must agree to diisagree. BJJ is a good art yes, but as compared to Judo it is nothing but 1/3 of cirriculum. I don't know, I just think that BJJ is "The best pancakes ever made" all thanks to the UFC. However one of the creators of the UFC got beat at UFC 3, and lost to Matt Hughes, a wrestler.

I would love to see Karo Paryisian vs. one of the Gracie's, I don't care who in a gi match and see who won that one. I mean Karo is a great cage fighter and he stuck only to his judo roots.

Japanese JiuJitsu is amazing, like the founding Kwans in Hapkido. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu to Japanese JiuJitsu is comparing an apple to an orange. It is a dumbed down version of "Favorite Techniques" by the gracies.

If by "one of the creators of the UFC" you mean Royce Gracie, he never actually got "beat" at UFC 3. He forfeited a match before it began due to exhaustion and possibly injury, (let's not forget that at that time they were fighting four or five times in a single night, and Ken Shamrock was also forced out due to injury) but Royce actually won his last fight there by submission (against Kimo Leopoldo).

I think Judo is great but you must give credit where credit is due. BJJ is the ultimate on the ground.

BTW, didn't Karo get knocked the f*** out in his last fight?

 

[Bodhisattva]

Sorry sir but we must agree to diisagree. BJJ is a good art yes, but as compared to Judo it is nothing but 1/3 of cirriculum. I don't know, I just think that BJJ is "The best pancakes ever made" all thanks to the UFC. However one of the creators of the UFC got beat at UFC 3, and lost to Matt Hughes, a wrestler.

I would love to see Karo Paryisian vs. one of the Gracie's, I don't care who in a gi match and see who won that one. I mean Karo is a great cage fighter and he stuck only to his judo roots.

Japanese JiuJitsu is amazing, like the founding Kwans in Hapkido. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu to Japanese JiuJitsu is comparing an apple to an orange. It is a dumbed down version of "Favorite Techniques" by the gracies.

Japanese JiuJitsu (Um, if you are talking about Japanese JJ, you should spell it JuJutsu, because "jiujitsu" is a brazilian rendition) is amazing if you are watching some guy practice on compliant partners.

--

And, incidentally, Karo DOESN'T stick strictly to his Judo.

JJJ is not so amazing when you watch some guy trying to pull his moves off against a combat athlete.

The reason so many JJJ moves aren't present in BJJ is because they DON'T WORK.

You can keep doing them if you like - I'll do the things that work.

 

[Ybot]

matt.m, While I agree that there are a lot of people who, perhaps, over hype BJJ, I have to step in, because I find you have chosen to let the pendulum swing too far in the other direction in your response. Let me respond to some of your posts (I'm taking bits from two of your previous posts on this thread):

After visiting Rodrigo Vaghi in St. L, who is a multi time world champion and 3rd dan under Rickson Gracie agreed with me that BJJ is a combat sport. It's main focus is wait till the opponent takes you down so you can begin your magic.

Yes Judo teaches a ton of ground fighting, however they are taught as followups to the throw that took their opponent down.

For instance the following techniques are an example: Floating hip throw to ground arm bar.

Rodrigo told me himself that he doesn't teach much on how to fall, nor off balance from the standing.

Whereas in arts like hapkido and judo, if you are on the ground then you are more than likely loosing.

True, BJJ spends little time working takedowns. Should we work more? Maybe, maybe not, depends on why we are training. I can tell you that in my experience, if I want it to go to the ground, it most likely will. I find that the simplest stuff works on the majority of people out there.

Oh, and it's fine that in Hapkido and Judo if you end up on the ground you are probably losing, that's just not the case with BJJ.

The person who taught Helio was a student of the Japanese national champ as well as Jigoro Kano's student.

So really to me and from what I have seen of BJJ it is a watered down version of Traditional Kodokan Judo.

BJJ is a good art yes, but as compared to Judo it is nothing but 1/3 of curriculum. I don't know, I just think that BJJ is "The best pancakes ever made" all thanks to the UFC. However one of the creators of the UFC got beat at UFC 3, and lost to Matt Hughes, a wrestler.

So, really to me and from what I have seen of Judo, as taught today, it is nothing more than "1/3 the curriculum" of pre-war Kodokan Judo. How many clubs today regularly practice Judo Kata, and striking? How many truly spend a good portion of their newaza time learning to actually finish their opponents rather than holding and escaping from pins and how to stall for the stand up.

And before you respond that there are clubs that spend time on these things, remember that there are plenty of BJJ clubs that work the things that you thing BJJ is weak at.

I would love to see Karo Paryisian vs. one of the Gracie's, I don't care who in a gi match and see who won that one. I mean Karo is a great cage fighter and he stuck only to his judo roots.

Of course it depends on the rules, but if you let me pick any Gracie, I pick Roger, and I'm sorry, but it just wouldn't be fair.

Japanese JiuJitsu is amazing, like the founding Kwans in Hapkido. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu to Japanese JiuJitsu is comparing an apple to an orange. It is a dumbed down version of "Favorite Techniques" by the gracies.

Every Judoka has their own set of techniques they use most and that works for them. They know these moves inside and out, know how to set them up from all kinds of places. The best could probably write volumes on small portions of Judo's game. That to me doesn't equate with "dumbed down". That to me is specialization.

I will say this with certainty that in a fight, not a cage......unless we are both in gi's, there is no blue belt on the planet that will beat me.

Sorry, just my opinion.

Being a bit arrogant aren't we now? There are a lot of blue belts on this planet, and every man is a sum of their overall life experience, not just their BJJ training.

 

[vankuen]

Wow...lot's of die hards here. That's good though...because you wouldn't be practicing if you didn't feel strongly about your chosen art.

I like the way you guys discuss things without getting all stupid in your debates...it's a refreshing sight to see compared to the other forums I've been too. (Even I get drawn into the stupidity sometimes).

I think that in general, JJ players...be them JJJ or BJJ, will be better on the ground over Judo quite frankly because they spend all of their time there. There is only so much time to train, and when it is all spent in one area naturally that will be your strong suit. Judo, (not combat judo where atemi is present) will spend time doing nage and katema waza...hopefully spending time in a 50/50 fashion. So althought the pallet will have more of a variety, it will also take longer to gain proficiency in both areas (in general) because only half the time is spent in each of those areas.

It's similar to my studying MT, WC, and Judo simultaneously. I have Judo days, MT days, and WC days. If I were to spend ALL of my time in only one of those areas, my skill in that area would increase at a faster rate. Luckily I've done the first two for years, and it doesn't take much to maintain them. I'm learning judo, and maintaining the other two arts.

I trust that this addition will give me a more rounded training and if I need to get better on the ground, I'll have to work it more in my Judo class or with others that train in some other ground grappling like JJJ or BJJ. But I'll see where this goes first.

 

[vankuen]

Update!

Had another newaza class...

Great news!!! I didn't do so hot this time! We practiced a couple chokes from the back and an armbar from a failed choke. Good stuff...the guys I worked with today ranged from another white belt to a yellow belt and a green belt. All of them were very good relative to me. The while belt I believe had some BJJ experience...he had the gi on that I've seen at another BJJ school (he had a great guard!) and the other guys I was just too tired to do much with. I just turtled up and let them try to submit me.

I setup a triangle on the green belt, and actually got my foot almost locked under my knee...but I think my legs are too short and fat because I really couldn't get my legs close enough to reaaaaally lock it. Perhaps I need to find another move. I like triangles a lot...but I just don't think my body is suited for them. Especially if the other has a big upper torso...big torso and stubby legs seem to not work well for triangles.

 

[Ybot]

Update!

Had another newaza class...

Great news!!! I didn't do so hot this time! We practiced a couple chokes from the back and an armbar from a failed choke. Good stuff...the guys I worked with today ranged from another white belt to a yellow belt and a green belt. All of them were very good relative to me. The while belt I believe had some BJJ experience...he had the gi on that I've seen at another BJJ school (he had a great guard!) and the other guys I was just too tired to do much with. I just turtled up and let them try to submit me.

I setup a triangle on the green belt, and actually got my foot almost locked under my knee...but I think my legs are too short and fat because I really couldn't get my legs close enough to reaaaaally lock it. Perhaps I need to find another move. I like triangles a lot...but I just don't think my body is suited for them. Especially if the other has a big upper torso...big torso and stubby legs seem to not work well for triangles.

Good stuff. Don't give up on that triangle yet. Even short legged people can get good triangles, the main issue is hip positioning. Turn your body to the side that you have the leg over neck at a right angle to your opponent when attacking the triangle. Usually with a little adjustment with positioning, you'll find you can lock it in.

 

[D Dempsey]

Update!

Had another newaza class...

Great news!!! I didn't do so hot this time! We practiced a couple chokes from the back and an armbar from a failed choke. Good stuff...the guys I worked with today ranged from another white belt to a yellow belt and a green belt. All of them were very good relative to me. The while belt I believe had some BJJ experience...he had the gi on that I've seen at another BJJ school (he had a great guard!) and the other guys I was just too tired to do much with. I just turtled up and let them try to submit me.

I setup a triangle on the green belt, and actually got my foot almost locked under my knee...but I think my legs are too short and fat because I really couldn't get my legs close enough to reaaaaally lock it. Perhaps I need to find another move. I like triangles a lot...but I just don't think my body is suited for them. Especially if the other has a big upper torso...big torso and stubby legs seem to not work well for triangles.

As long as your having fun thats all that really matters. It will take some time before you really figure out what works the best for you. Personally I almost never get anyone with a triangle. I can't do Gi chokes very well do to a hand injury I got in the Army, but I catch people with arm bars all the time. They work pretty well for me.

 

[vankuen]

Have a permenantly broken wrist myself from an injury while serving as well. Got hardware in there now holding things together. So I feel ya on that one--no pun intended.

The nagewaza are relatively easy for me so far, most of them I've done before in gung fu. For newaza right now I'm just trying to be a good rolling partner by being able to provide resistance. I'm okay till I get tired...after that it's just survival and not getting submitted or pinned.

It's a different world--the ground. But I know that if I stick to it, it will be as familiar to me as standup fighting is.

But yea...so far triangles are 0-1.

 

[Darth F.Takeda]

I don't care if someone thinks it's just sport or not, as I tend to think that combat sports are more likely to provide skills that will provide a higher ratio of success in real combat application. The reason being is that combat sports constantly pressure test against resisting opponents. So sport orientated or not, the natural attributes and skills will more likely be successful than if you were taking a typical school with unrealistic training practices. It's been proven time and again. I would bet on a sport fighter every time over a "traditional" stylist any day.

That's why I started up with Judo anyway...to compliment all my standup fighting and to bridge the gap between standup and submission grappling. I also like that I can go full out with someone and not worry about either one of us really getting hurt...whereas in striking arts if we go full out...someone is likely getting hurt. Who wants to look like Ed Norton in fight club going to work? :wink2:

Now you've gone and done it.

Sure if every drill is with total cooperation, than the sportive option would be best, but if you go to a school that focuses on combat, not sport, than you will be better prepared for the street and home defense.

We have several converts from local BJJ schools because they got sick of training for grappling, without any training against srikes and weapons, on their feet or the ground. All of them were good grapplers, when we rolled with in a grappling technique only framework, but were all "killed off" quickly when the perameters were more in line with life and limb fighting. Things like stalliong in the guard jhust got them punched in the nuts, fishhooked, gouged and elbowed, not to mention when unknown attackers were thrown into the fight.

We have several active Judoka who train with us as well, and while most dont have the same level of pure groundfighting skills that the BJJ trained students have, they tend to do better durring Self Defense scenario sparring, as they tend to stay on their feet and when they hit the ground, they tend to get up and stomp on their attackers instead of make it a ground war.

Not saying grappling skills are not important, they are and should be developed ( I love to roll and do alot) but you should train them in context to real fighting if SD is a concern for a good amount of your ground training time.

The best thing for me and our students is to add some of the "sportive" training methods for the very attributes you have mentioned, but also train the nastier, more destructive and potentially lethal techniques in cooperative, semi cooperative and in short burst of full on immediate action drills and scenario drills, with an eye towards safty and knowing when to let go of Uke before he goes to the Hospital and you feel like the biggest jerk for hurting your partner.

Have fun in Judo, it's a great art.

SHUGYO!

 

[Darth F.Takeda]

Dont give up on Triangle, even when it's not fully on, you can hold him there, and smash his nose or hook and tear it, gouge his eyes, eldow the top of his head, not to mention you can deploy a knife and dispatch him if the situation warrents it.

Just let go if you feel yourself being lifted more than a foot off the ground, or you could get headslammed.

 

[arnisador]

Good pointsa bout the triangle!

 

[RedRonin38]

Have a permenantly broken wrist myself from an injury while serving as well. Got hardware in there now holding things together. So I feel ya on that one--no pun intended.

The nagewaza are relatively easy for me so far, most of them I've done before in gung fu. For newaza right now I'm just trying to be a good rolling partner by being able to provide resistance. I'm okay till I get tired...after that it's just survival and not getting submitted or pinned.

It's a different world--the ground. But I know that if I stick to it, it will be as familiar to me as standup fighting is.

But yea...so far triangles are 0-1.

Hi vankuen, I'm a relaztively new Judoka (just shy of 2 years training) and the classes I attend are evenly split between ne waza and tachi waza as well. One observation I've made is that initially I made tons of progress in ne waza, and was somewhat neutral towards tachi waza. After some time, my tachi waza made quite a bit of progress and now I enjoy both equally.

As far as the Judo v.s BJJ thing...We play with some BJJ folks from time to time and they must be given due credit: they are ne waza specialists. I think Judo is a great way to get a foundation in groundfighting, and is especially good for learning escapes and transitions from throwing to ne waza. The BJJ players I've rolled with are awesome with thier tranistions and ability to chain thier submission attacks smoothly and quickly. The fine details of sumissions and chokes you can pick up from them are priceless, and will help your game.

 

[jlhummel]

Since you seem to have made your choice I wanted to point out that while Judo will teach you great throws, sweeps and ground techniques you need to remember that it is usually taught as a sport and they majorly ignore anything below the waist. I made it to my brown belt in Judo and played in tournaments (usualy a requirement to advance) and when I was using just judo techniques I would have a hard time competing or beating a black belt but when I reverted to wrestling style (freestyle, Collegiate style, and Greco) against Judo black belts I could compete and even beat some do to the use of leg techniques on the matt and on my feet. So dont create a blind spot for yourself when you end up on the ground or even on your feet remember your sprawls and double legs and single legs and high crotch techniques. Otherwise your gonna love the throws and sweeps, when you bounce someone on cement or even hard ground they usually dont get up. Judo is a great equilizer for taking on larger opponents as well. Unlike what some might think strength is a plus but technique will overcome a stronger opponent. Have fun!!!