Grappling takedown - back of head wide open?

[Buka]

it would appear to me that the back side of the helmet was very well thought out and specifically designed with the concept of protecting the back of the neck.

Man, I'd really like to get one of those outfits. I think I'd wear it, have my laptop on my lap and talk chop on our forum.

 

[now disabled]

Man, I'd really like to get one of those outfits. I think I'd wear it, have my laptop on my lap and talk chop on our forum.

Ya might sweat a bit lol and ummm anyone sees ya then they might call the short bus lol ....that said , I am sure that many of us could book a seat .................................Oh btw I'm driving lol which indeed may prove interesting as I'd be yelling your on the wrong side of the road ******* lol , the up side would be .....if we all piled out to confront a roadrage then we would have photo and vid opportunities, and be able to test our respective skills ........however as your wearing the armour your going first lol

 

[Shakya]

The difficulty is that many of the best structures for stopping the takedown (such as a sprawl) aren't ideal for striking. In the case of a sprawl, the defenders body is mostly horizontal, which isn't good for striking. The attackers head is typically in contact with the sprawler's hip, which isn't a great angle for striking. The sprawler has to keep constant body contact and weight on the attacker to prevent follow up, and that gets in the way of effective striking.

But it doesn't seem to be a problem for GSP here, for example:

If you want to hit the person shooting in

I think perhaps we need to be careful here about the way we are describing the situation - as I have re-emphasized on this thread already, the person is no longer "shooting in" - they've been stopped in their tracks - sprawled.

Otherwise it could sound like I am attempting to discuss trying to strike a speeding bullet. In the above video, GSP illustrates exactly what I'm talking about - training sprawl, and then setting up a striking structure.

I don't think sportive grapplers train for such a scenario - when they arrive in that setup they are just not expecting any strike from that angle, and in MMA bouts, like UFC, they are certainly not expecting any strike to the back of their heads, which in terms of vulnerability, it appears like the go-to spot with a hammer fist.

I am assuming that in the more brutal past, this kind of approach to takedown attempts would have been the norm when training for open hand no rules duels.

Thanks again.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

But it doesn't seem to be a problem for GSP here, for example:

View attachment 21764


I think perhaps we need to be careful here about the way we are describing the situation - as I have re-emphasized on this thread already, the person is no longer "shooting in" - they've been stopped in their tracks - sprawled.

Otherwise it could sound like I am attempting to discuss trying to strike a speeding bullet. In the above video, GSP illustrates exactly what I'm talking about - training sprawl, and then setting up a striking structure.

I don't think sportive grapplers train for such a scenario - when they arrive in that setup they are just not expecting any strike from that angle, and in MMA bouts, like UFC, they are certainly not expecting any strike to the back of their heads, which in terms of vulnerability, it appears like the go-to spot with a hammer fist.

I am assuming that in the more brutal past, this kind of approach to takedown attempts would have been the norm when training for open hand no rules duels.

Thanks again.

Okay, what you’re looking at there is no longer a sprawl. GSP used the sprawl to set up a back take. From the back control position he certainly does have the possibility of hitting the back of the neck (as well as a lot of other targets). Another possibility (in a no-rules context) would be to to knee or kick the downed opponent in the head. This is part of why you really, really don’t want to be in the bottom of turtle position with someone on your back in a fight.

Getting back to your original question, I’m not sure I’d call it a “chink in the armor for grapplers.” That back control position is one you win by being the better grappler. If that’s the position you use for striking the back of the neck, then you could just as accurately say that it’s a potential tool in the grappler’s toolbox.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

sprawled.

If you want to strike on the back of your opponent's head, sprawl is not the proper counter. You don't have a good body structure to strike. The proper counter is to use both palms to press down on the back of your opponent's head. You then strike the back of his head with your elbow when you are in a perfect bow-arrow stance.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yes, that structure would be a successful sprawl, for example, no?

For me sprawls are more of an "Oh Crap" moment where you were caught just enough by surprise that you don't have enough time to do anything else, but to make it make it more difficult for the person who is trying to take you down. For me Sprawl = "You almost caught me completely off guard, so I'm going to make you work for the take down." Sprawls don't have a good striking structure, sprawls are more of an escape structure.

I would consider a good striking structure, one where I can bear the weight of my strike down on my opponent knowing that they basically have to reset before trying to take me down again. I would also have to be able to be able to reset and strike again if I miss. At that point I'm looking at trying to target the spine with my elbow in attempt to break the spine like I'm trying to break a board. Technically I wouldn't need to break the spine. I could rupture a disc and be effective as well. If didn't think I was going to get that clean of a shot then I'm looking at trying to "knock the wind" out of my opponent by striking the back side the lungs, or trying to cause muscle spasms.

Most people think of someone punching or kicking the stomach when talking about "knocking the wind out of someone" But if you look at accidents where people fall, you'll notice that most of the time the person gets the wind knocked out from impacts to the back and the side. The fight is basically over if I can strike my opponent in the back and make him sound like this.

At point his only hope is to humor by singing "It's a wonderful" and maybe I'll be stunned enough to forget that I'm in a fight from the laughter.

See these kids think it's funny @ 1:40

 

[Tony Dismukes]

If you want to strike on the back of your opponent's head, sprawl is not the proper counter. You don't have a good body structure to strike. The proper counter is to use both palms to press down on the back of your opponent's head. You then strike the back of his head with your elbow when you are in a perfect bow-arrow stance.

Yeah, but that depends on the opponent coming in with a crappy tackle rather than a proper wrestling shot.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yeah, but that depends on the opponent coming in with a crappy tackle rather than a proper wrestling shot.

The faster that your opponent's attack, the easier that you can lead him into the emptiness (kiss the dirt). It follows the wrestling principle that "If you want to ..., I'll help you to ... more than you want to."

During the 1983 US National Chinese wrestling tournament (Columbus, Ohio), during the championship match, my wrestling opponent (from Ohio State University wrestling team) attacked my leading leg twice and I took him down twice just like showing in that clip. Both rounds were finished within 7 seconds. That was the easiest 2 rounds that I ever had in my tournament years.

If you work on pulley daily. You will develop that "downward pulling" skill.

This is the only my teacher's tournament picture that I have (the referee was Wang Ziping). The exactly same move was used there.

wang zi ping - Google Search

 

[JowGaWolf]

Getting the wind knocked out is almost always the injury that people can laugh about. Not because they get hurt but because of the sound that they make. Like what other injury would make a person sound like a hound dog lol.

 

[drop bear]

Exactly, I cannot believe that in the ancient, more brutal past, they would not have developed techniques that, when a takedown is sprawled successfully, attack the back of the head instead of, say, going for the guillotine, which can be more complicated to pull off.

Ok. Striking the back of the head doesn't stop the takedown. So it means you have to stop defending to go for it.

If you stop defending the takedown you obviously run a higher risk of being taken down. Which is about the worst thing that can happen to you in a fight.

Now to make a double leg easier. The grappler wants your hands high. When you start throwing elbows your hands go high. So you are giving up position. And making it easier for the takedown.

So you are trading defence for attack in the hope the elbows will finish the guy before you wind up on your back.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Ok. Striking the back of the head doesn't stop the takedown. So it means you have to stop defending to go for it.

If you stop defending the takedown you obviously run a higher risk of being taken down. Which is about the worst thing that can happen to you in a fight.

He's assuming that the second you sprawl correctly, you no longer have to worry about being taken down, as the attempt was stopped. So you can stop sprawling/defending to strike.

 

[Shakya]

Okay, what you’re looking at there is no longer a sprawl. GSP used the sprawl to set up a back take.
Sure.

I’m not sure I’d call it a “chink in the armor for grapplers.” That back control position is one you win by being the better grappler. If that’s the position you use for striking the back of the neck, then you could just as accurately say that it’s a potential tool in the grappler’s toolbox.

Right, of course, and yet then there is a grappling element to many TMA, right? So the are always broad overlaps.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

He's assuming that the second you sprawl correctly, you no longer have to worry about being taken down, as the attempt was stopped. So you can stop sprawling/defending to strike.

This this isn’t always the case. You may have stopped the first attempt, but a good wrestler will chain attacks together and have a follow up for the first shot.

 

[drop bear]

He's assuming that the second you sprawl correctly, you no longer have to worry about being taken down, as the attempt was stopped. So you can stop sprawling/defending to strike.

The next progression from there is a sit out.

 

[JowGaWolf]

But it doesn't seem to be a problem for GSP here, for example:

But he's not striking from a sprawl position. By the time he gets into a position to strike, he's in a completely different position and the takedown attempt is finished. His opponent would have to start all over in order to initiate another takedown attempt. Which is what you see when he puts all of the weight on the guy when he tries to stand. It causes what is referred to as an "Improper lift." An "Improper lift" is any lifting motion that causes strain on the back. The goal is to force the opponent to injure their back by lifting the weight of your body when the back is in a weak position to do so.

They make tons of work place safety videos about improper lifting. It's the same concept, but in fighting, sparring, or wrestling, the bad lifting structure is intentionally caused.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The next progression from there is a sit out.

To counter that he should have been controlling that head or twisting the pinned guys torso. The moment he feels that head pop loose then he needs to re establish control.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If you want to strike on the back of your opponent's head, sprawl is not the proper counter. You don't have a good body structure to strike. The proper counter is to use both palms to press down on the back of your opponent's head. You then strike the back of his head with your elbow when you are in a perfect bow-arrow stance.

One of the partner techniques I didn't like training. When it's done correctly like scrapping your face on the ground. You just have to make sure that the person shooting is fully committed to the take down to the point where they over-extend.

The only risk is not pushing down on the opponent by guiding them into the ground. If you let them maintain a good structure then you'll put yourself in trouble. At this point the kung fu answer is the same technique that a wrestler would use.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Striking the back of the head doesn't stop the takedown.

There is no rush to strike your opponent during your take down. When your opponent is on the ground, you will have all the time in the world to strike him.

A wrestler will use a take down to counter a take down. A striker may have to depend on striking to counter a take down. Unfortunately that striking window is very small.

The head lock is one exception. When you use head lock, you use your forearm to strike on the back of your opponent's head. So when you get a head lock on your opponent, you may have knocked him out 1/2 way already.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The only risk is not pushing down on the opponent by guiding them into the ground. If you let them maintain a good structure then you'll put yourself in trouble. At this point the kung fu answer is the same technique that a wrestler would use.

IMO, the "safest" way to counter a single leg is to use double under hooks to hook under your opponent's both shoulder. You can then twist his upper body, spring or lift one of his legs, and take him down.

The only concern of this approach is it's too conservative. Of course if you don't let your opponent to come in, he can't get your leg. But you can't take advantage on his commitment either.

The more aggressive counter is to use one over hook, use body spin, and leg lift (or leg spring) to take your opponent down. But you have to be really fast and this require a lot of serious training. This meet the requirement of

- If you want to come in, I'll help you to come in much more than you can handle.
- Move yourself out of your opponent's attacking path, and lead him into the emptiness.

Counters to single leg is a very interest subject. You can almost write a book about it.

 

[Hanzou]

Right, of course, and yet then there is a grappling element to many TMA, right? So the are always broad overlaps.

Perhaps, but its oftentimes under-practiced and archiac compared to modern grappling.