Grappling takedown - back of head wide open?

[drop bear]

Thanks for the video

During the long scramble that ensues from 1:00, for example, it seems that there is plenty of opportunity for a hammer fist to the back of the head. Would you agree?

View attachment 21761

Ok. There is another issue. If you are hitting someone you are not stopping the takedown. So you need to hit from a position that won't land you on your back.

Or you have to basically knock them out with those shots

 

[Shakya]

Ok. There is another issue. If you are hitting someone you are not stopping the takedown. So you need to hit from a position that won't land you on your back.

Or you have to basically knock them out with those shots

Right, yes, that is what I was thinking also - you'd better hope it worked!

The thing is, we can't really test it. We can only rely on street fight videos as and when they arrive, and even then it is only one or two instances.

 

[Shakya]

We do have some footage like this about punches to the back of the head from gloved opponents, however:

With McGregor gaining somewhat of a reputation for such dirty tricks:

 

[drop bear]

Right, yes, that is what I was thinking also - you'd better hope it worked!

The thing is, we can't really test it. We can only rely on street fight videos as and when they arrive, and even then it is only one or two instances.

One fc. You can go buck wild with downward elbows.
Zebaztian Kadestam Knocks Out Agilan Thani In Malaysia - ONE Championship

 

[hoshin1600]

Therefore I think that some key piece to this jigsaw puzzle must be missing.

I am not trying to be mean or trolling here but what's missing is your own understanding of skill, combat and history.
Part of the problem is that you have a pre determined image in your mind of what that jigsaw puzzle is going to look like once you put the pieces together but the actual picture is different than what you think. So your focusing on this one piece of the puzzle thinking it's the key to the entire thing, like it's a corner piece. But it's not.
There are reasons for everything. If I were you I would start with discovering the reasons why things ARE, rather then the reasons why they ARE NOT.

 

[Shakya]

I am not trying to be mean or trolling here but what's missing is your own understanding of skill, combat and history.
Part of the problem is that you have a pre determined image in your mind of what that jigsaw puzzle is going to look like once you put the pieces together

I don't think I have a pre-determined image. That is why I am exploring here. We have 'best fit' theories for things, don't we - perhaps like you have about me.

but the actual picture is different than what you think.

Please do explain.

So your focusing on this one piece of the puzzle thinking it's the key to the entire thing, like it's a corner piece. But it's not.

Great, I am happy to be educated on this topic. That's why I am here discussing it with you.

 

[dunc]

I don’t know about other country’s styles, but I believe that the double leg wasn’t used much in pre-judo Japan had more to do with weapons and attacks to the face, throat and ears

 

[drop bear]

I don’t know about other country’s styles, but I believe that the double leg wasn’t used much in pre-judo Japan had more to do with weapons and attacks to the face, throat and ears

Sumo had a lot of single legs.

 

[now disabled]

I don’t know about other country’s styles, but I believe that the double leg wasn’t used much in pre-judo Japan had more to do with weapons and attacks to the face, throat and ears

In what respect do you say that regarding weapons?

 

[dunc]

Sumo had a lot of single legs.

Yeah but interestingly the jujutsu styles didn’t seem to go there much

 

[dunc]

In what respect do you say that regarding weapons?

One of the issues with take downs like double legs is that you’re putting your neck in easy reach of your opponent’s hands without controlling their hands

 

[hoshin1600]

I don't think I have a pre-determined image. That is why I am exploring here. We have 'best fit' theories for things, don't we - perhaps like you have about me.


Please do explain.


Great, I am happy to be educated on this topic. That's why I am here discussing it with you.

i dont have a preconceived about you. im actually still trying to figure out what your questions are. if i knew what it was you were trying to get answers to i would respond. you've touched upon a few things but they seem very vague to me so its hard for me to quote your question and have a conversation.
ive already mentioned that there are a multitude of human week points and none are any more or less vulnerable based on what style you do.

 

[now disabled]

One of the issues with take downs like double legs is that you’re putting your neck in easy reach of your opponent’s hands without controlling their hands

Yeah ok but what has that got to do with weapons? As I don't think if you were facing a person with a weapon grabbing at the legs may not be the best option ...I assume your post to pre judo you are meaning when the daisho were still carried?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

One of the issues with take downs like double legs is that you’re putting your neck in easy reach of your opponent’s hands without controlling their hands

The simple solution to that is make sure when you do the takedown, youre wrapping them on the outside of the arms, to control it.

 

[dunc]

The simple solution to that is make sure when you do the takedown, youre wrapping them on the outside of the arms, to control it.

Do you have examples? I think that’d be quite hard to pull off...

Yeah ok but what has that got to do with weapons? As I don't think if you were facing a person with a weapon grabbing at the legs may not be the best option ...I assume your post to pre judo you are meaning when the daisho were still carried?

Yeah my point was that the old styles of jujutsu didn’t really use these kind of takedowns
In their context weapons were always present / considered and, critically, often not visible

I agree with the posts about the limitations of strikes to the back of the neck against a double leg

But if one can get even a half arsed giullotine attempt against a double leg then an unscrupulous opponent (with some knowledge/training) can cause all sorts of problems if they are armed (you may not see it), allowed to grab the throat/face etc

 

[now disabled]

Do you have examples? I think that’d be quite hard to pull off...



Yeah my point was that the old styles of jujutsu didn’t really use these kind of takedowns
In their context weapons were always present / considered and, critically, often not visible

I agree with the posts about the limitations of strikes to the back of the neck against a double leg

But if one can get even a half arsed giullotine attempt against a double leg then an unscrupulous opponent (with some knowledge/training) can cause all sorts of problems if they are armed (you may not see it), allowed to grab the throat/face etc

I do get you I think on "old styles"

If your meaning in a "real situation" then all opponents are unscrupulous imo

 

[hoshin1600]

If we are talking about old jujutsu and grappling , has anyone remembered that the samurai and many other cultures wore armor?

 

[now disabled]

If we are talking about old jujutsu and grappling , has anyone remembered that the samurai and many other cultures wore armor?

nope lol ...I wasnt assuming he was going that far back but yup if he is then the helmet does have a neck guard lol .... that said I still don't think that going for the double leg take down be the first option or the second if the opponent has a weapon then controling the use of that to me would be the priority or negating the use of said if not controlling

 

[Buka]

Welcome to MartialTalk, Shakya. Hope you enjoy it.

As to your question, in fighting, something is always open. I don't think it's any more of chink than any other chink. (My, didn't that sound odd?)

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Do you have examples? I think that’d be quite hard to pull off...



Yeah my point was that the old styles of jujutsu didn’t really use these kind of takedowns
In their context weapons were always present / considered and, critically, often not visible

I agree with the posts about the limitations of strikes to the back of the neck against a double leg

But if one can get even a half arsed giullotine attempt against a double leg then an unscrupulous opponent (with some knowledge/training) can cause all sorts of problems if they are armed (you may not see it), allowed to grab the throat/face etc

Not as tough as it sounds, but tougher than a regular double leg...I will try later to find a video describing the technique.