Grandmaster/Datu Hartman Promotion Questions

[Datu Tim Hartman]

ADMIN NOTICE
This thread is an excerpt from the "Questions regarding MA-80"
Please go there to discuss Dan Anderson's MA80 system.
This thread is intended to focus on Datu Tim Hartman's promotions.

Thank you.

=========

Dan-o,
I'm bery confused.

Earlier in this string you said "1980 is the year I began training." but just now you said "did I forget to say this is the first test I've taken in 28 years?". 2008-28=1980.

So, you have never tested for any rank in Modern Arnis? Remy just gave you a rank cert? No wonder so many people look at Arnis as a ****ing joke.

Also, what art are you 'testing' to be a grandmaster in? Your karate system? Not your "MA80" style, since you just said you had no tested rank in Arnis. Or are you now teaching Japanese arts to become a "Soke"?


For the record, I'm of the "Only a Japanese teacher of a tradtional Japanese art is a legitimate Soke, all others are frauds" school of thought. Too many white wanna-bes buying credibility to fleese the sheeple out there in my not so subtle opinion.

I'm in Atlantic City this weekend for a seminar and tournament, so I'll be brief.

LL-
If Dan wants to test to become a GM in front of the Soke council, that's his right. So we are on the same page I'm not endorsing his decision just his right to make it. Personally I'm not down with the council thing, but I'm not the one testing to become a GM. I would recommend minding your own business and let Dan do his thing.

 

[The Last Legionary]

I'm in Atlantic City this weekend for a seminar and tournament, so I'll be brief.

LL-
If Dan wants to test to become a GM in front of the Soke council, that's his right. So we are on the same page I'm not endorsing his decision just his right to make it. Personally I'm not down with the council thing, but I'm not the one testing to become a GM. I would recommend minding your own business and let Dan do his thing.

Tim, you're right, it's his right to do as he sees fit. However I don't think you're one to talk about promotions, all things considered.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Tim, you're right, it's his right to do as he sees fit. However I don't think you're one to talk about promotions, all things considered.

What are you talking about?

 

[The Last Legionary]

What are you talking about?

Do you really want me to go there Tim?

 

[The Game]

Do you really want me to go there Tim?

Dude, don't even bother going there. The only people, and I use that term loosely, that still give a **** about that old news are a couple of long exiled hacks and nobodies stuck stewing in their own little fantasy world of envy playing with all their sockpuppets. In fact, they even have their own little mailing list dedicted to constantly harping about it and rarely talking about anything else. Seriously, MT doesn't need the old BS dusted off again. Dead horse and all that brudda.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Do you really want me to go there Tim?

Sure. I doubt you're going to bring up anything that hasn't been said before.

 

[The Last Legionary]

Dude, don't even bother going there. The only people, and I use that term loosely, that still give a **** about that old news are a couple of long exiled hacks and nobodies stuck stewing in their own little fantasy world of envy playing with all their sockpuppets. In fact, they even have their own little mailing list dedicted to constantly harping about it and rarely talking about anything else. Seriously, MT doesn't need the old BS dusted off again. Dead horse and all that brudda.

"Dude", it's a legit question. Hartman's history is pretty interesting reading, and as you noted, a regular discussion topic with some. But for the sake of not rehashing old ****, I'll skip the dead horse ****.

 

[The Last Legionary]

Tim,
I'm going to lay out a time line here, so follow the bouncing ball Datu. What follows are your own words here on MartialTalk. I'm sure I'll take some **** for this but I'm used to it.

10-13-2001
"I know GM Presas has a brother...Ernesto? Is he involved with Modern Arnis?
Ernesto has his own art Kombaton. It is not the same program."

12-13-2001
"Guro Rick Manglinong
Started training with GM Presas in the early 70's on the West Coast. In addition to being a 2nd degree under GM Remy he also hold a 4th under GM Ernesto Presas (Remy's brother).
Mr. Manglinong will be teaching:"Old School" Modern Arnis and Kombaton Concepts."

01-12-2002
"For a while GM Ernesto Presas (Remy's younger brother) would use the same name of Modern Arnis for the program he was teaching. Although there are many things alike, it is not the same program. Eventually after the two brothers had a talk Ernesto changed his program name to Kombaton. Before this time Ernesto promoted many poeple in europe in the name of Modern Arnis. This has caused much confusion many of these people still call the program Modern Arnis even though the name has been changed."

01-26-2002
"Guro Rick Manglinong
Started training with GM Presas in the 70's on the West Coast. In addition to being a certified instructor under GM Remy he also holds a 5th under GM Ernesto Presas (Remy's brother).
Mr. Manglinong will be teaching:"Old School" Modern Arnis and Kombaton Concepts."

01-26-2002
"I had talked to GM Ernesto about a year ago and he told me that he didn't do Balintawak. Being a student of Balintawak myself, I can't say that he moves like some one who does the art."

02-10-2002
"It was nice to finally meet Datu Worden face to face and a pleasure to meet Prof Trigg. I didn't know that Trigg was the first to bring Remy and Ernesto Presas to the Portland area. "

09-09-2002
"The main problem is in the name of Modern Arnis. At this time there is only one. Before there was two. One taught by Remy, and a second taught by his brother Ernesto. Most of the Europeans that do Modern Arnis do the Ernesto’s style were most of the Americans do Remy’s.

Eventually Ernesto changed the name to Kombaton. Many of the Europeans still call it Modern Arnis. This is where the problem begins. When we in America say Modern Arnis we think of the founder “Remy Presas” not his younger brother Ernesto. "

11-30-2002
"Remember that Ernesto had to change the name because of Remy. So this would mean that you were licensed to teach KOMBATON. "

07-21-2004
"This is a hard one. I think that the only ones who could tell us for sure are Ernesto & Roberto Presas. When I see them in April I will ask them. Let me first say this, I think there is a difference between Presas family arnis and Modern Arnis. Remy’s first exposure to FMA was during WW2. He was watching his father teaching the military"

03-07-2005
"As far as any rumors of style rivalries go, I would say are false. Both Remy and Ernesto treated each others students as family. The second time I met Ernesto his wife was there and we all went to the casino together and I was treated as a member. Are the family problems TABOO? I don’t think so. Should they be exposed on the net? I think that would be in poor taste. Know this, if you attend events in either program you will most likely treat like one of our family."

05-13-2007
"PG Manglinong and I were awarded 9th degree black belts in Kombatan and I was shocked when GM Ernesto introduced us as Grandmaster Manglinong and Grandmaster Hartman. "

Shocked is a good word to use here Tim. So were a lot of people. What I quoted above are your words, the only words you've mentioned here concerning Kombatan. You now, that art you're now a GrandMaster in.
In 7 years, you've mentioned Ernesto a dozen times, and Kombatan a mere 3! times. Yet you come back from a vacation sporting a suntan, a shiny new title and a nice 9th degree promotion. Not bad for an art you don't do, don't teach, and a decade ago weren't even aware of. Having your students promote you twice was pretty bad, but at least that was in an art you had some legit rank in. Some might want to know how the actual Kombatan people who have busted their asses to train and earn rank feel about an outsider popping in and buying himself some paperwork.
Is all this really the mark of a "War Leader"?
I'll most likely get my teeth handed to me over this but **** it. You've been coddled by your whipping boy here too long, and gotten rid of all your critics. Someone has to stand up and bare buttocks at the ******** for a change.

 

[The Game]

"Dude", it's a legit question. Hartman's history is pretty interesting reading, and as you noted, a regular discussion topic with some. But for the sake of not rehashing old ****, I'll skip the dead horse ****.

Dude, who ****ing pissed in your punchbowl lately? You've been a royal dickhead the last few days. The only morons who buy the "promoted by his students" crap are the same wannabe hack nobodies who have been pissing and moaning for years about him. Been debunked more times than you've changed your socks this month. You want to whine about crap you're clueless about, go hang out with those jock sniffers.

As to Dan, he's ok. Congratulations.

 

[The Last Legionary]

Dude, who ****ing pissed in your punchbowl lately? You've been a royal dickhead the last few days. The only morons who buy the "promoted by his students" crap are the same wannabe hack nobodies who have been pissing and moaning for years about him. Been debunked more times than you've changed your socks this month. You want to whine about crap you're clueless about, go hang out with those jock sniffers.

I'm afraid I don't know who you are referring to. Care to enlighten me?

Errrr,

Maybe it's time to split this off this portion of the discussion to "Questions regarding T.H." or something.

T.H. and MA-80 are two separate topics.

Fine with me.

 

[Morgan]

Dude, who ****ing pissed in your punchbowl lately? You've been a royal dickhead the last few days. The only morons who buy the "promoted by his students" crap are the same wannabe hack nobodies who have been pissing and moaning for years about him. Been debunked more times than you've changed your socks this month. You want to whine about crap you're clueless about, go hang out with those jock sniffers.

As to Dan, he's ok. Congratulations.

Mr. Game,

I believe that you're in error regarding the promotion. Below are 2 announcements which were posted on martialtalk.com:

01-31-2003, 10:19 PM
Jeff Leader
Posts: n/a
Casino Cash: $



Promotion of Tim Hartman by WMAA Board.

​

On behalf of the Advisory Board of the World Modern Arnis Alliance, it is my privilege and pleasure to announce that the Board has promoted Datu Tim Hartman to the rank of 7th degree black belt (Lakan Pito), effective 31 January 2003.

This promotion comes after considerable deliberation by the Board as well as consultation with WMAA members and outside experts regarding not only Mr. Hartman's suitability for promotion but also the best way to proceed with high-level promotions in the absence of an accepted promotional authority at the highest levels of the art. The promotion is in recognition of his physical skill and additionally his contributions to spreading the art and organizing the WMAA and its curriculum.

The Board extends its congratulations to Datu Hartman.

/s/
Jeffery J. Leader, PhD

for the WMAA Advisory Board:

Charles E. Dulin
Paul Janulis
Jeffery J. Leader (Chair)
Ingmar Johansson
Sal Todaro
​

06-07-2005, 07:18 PM
arnisador

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WMAA: Promotion of Datu Tim Hartman.

​

The Board of Advisors of the World Modern Arnis Alliance is pleased to announce the promotion of Datu Timothy J. Hartman to the rank of Lakan Siyam, 9th degree black belt.

The promotion was made on 5 June 2005 in West Seneca, NY. The promotion not only recognizes Datu Hartman's technical skill and his leadership role in Modern Arnis; it also places him at the apex of the rank chain in the WMAA, as befits the Technical Director and President of the organization. This will allow him to promote other WMAA members, such as those currently holding the rank of 5th degree black belt, to appropriate ranks within the WMAA in the future.

The Board wishes to emphasize the fact that Datu Hartman's Lakan Siyam rank refers to his rank within the WMAA. His rank from Prof. Presas is Lakan Anim, 6th degree black belt. The Board also wishes to reiterate that it is the position of the WMAA that all Modern Arnis Datus are equal in status. This numerical rank is within this organization, internal to the WMAA, and does not imply that Datu Hartman is ranked either above or below any other Datu with higher or lower numerical rank.

The Board congratulates Datu Hartman on his achievements.

/s/ Jeffery J. Leader
Jeffery J. Leader
Chair, WMAA Board of Advisors
On Behalf of the Board of Advisors: Chad Dulin, Paul Janulis, Jeff Leader, Rick Manglinong, Steve Scott, Sal Todaro
​

Morgan

 

[The Game]

Mr. Game,

I believe that you're in error regarding the promotion. Below are 2 announcements which were posted on martialtalk.com:

01-31-2003, 10:19 PM
Jeff Leader
Posts: n/a
Casino Cash: $



Promotion of Tim Hartman by WMAA Board.

​

On behalf of the Advisory Board of the World Modern Arnis Alliance, it is my privilege and pleasure to announce that the Board has promoted Datu Tim Hartman to the rank of 7th degree black belt (Lakan Pito), effective 31 January 2003.

This promotion comes after considerable deliberation by the Board as well as consultation with WMAA members and outside experts regarding not only Mr. Hartman's suitability for promotion but also the best way to proceed with high-level promotions in the absence of an accepted promotional authority at the highest levels of the art. The promotion is in recognition of his physical skill and additionally his contributions to spreading the art and organizing the WMAA and its curriculum.

The Board extends its congratulations to Datu Hartman.

/s/
Jeffery J. Leader, PhD

for the WMAA Advisory Board:

Charles E. Dulin
Paul Janulis
Jeffery J. Leader (Chair)
Ingmar Johansson
Sal Todaro


06-07-2005, 07:18 PM
arnisador

Martial Talk
Sr. Grandmaster​

Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Terre Haute, IN
Posts: 27,581
Casino Cash: $14629
Thanks: 177
Thanked 77 Times in 54 Posts

Founding Member
20,000 Post Club
Rep Power: 34


WMAA: Promotion of Datu Tim Hartman.

​

The Board of Advisors of the World Modern Arnis Alliance is pleased to announce the promotion of Datu Timothy J. Hartman to the rank of Lakan Siyam, 9th degree black belt.

The promotion was made on 5 June 2005 in West Seneca, NY. The promotion not only recognizes Datu Hartman's technical skill and his leadership role in Modern Arnis; it also places him at the apex of the rank chain in the WMAA, as befits the Technical Director and President of the organization. This will allow him to promote other WMAA members, such as those currently holding the rank of 5th degree black belt, to appropriate ranks within the WMAA in the future.

The Board wishes to emphasize the fact that Datu Hartman's Lakan Siyam rank refers to his rank within the WMAA. His rank from Prof. Presas is Lakan Anim, 6th degree black belt. The Board also wishes to reiterate that it is the position of the WMAA that all Modern Arnis Datus are equal in status. This numerical rank is within this organization, internal to the WMAA, and does not imply that Datu Hartman is ranked either above or below any other Datu with higher or lower numerical rank.

The Board congratulates Datu Hartman on his achievements.

/s/ Jeffery J. Leader
Jeffery J. Leader
Chair, WMAA Board of Advisors
On Behalf of the Board of Advisors: Chad Dulin, Paul Janulis, Jeff Leader, Rick Manglinong, Steve Scott, Sal Todaro
​

Morgan

What's your point Morgan?
Hartman was promoted to 7th and 9th by the WMAA board, a recognized international Modern Arnis organization. The "student promotion" fantasy has been debated and debunked, a long time ago. The only people who still have issues are the same couple of assclowns from Buffalo that always have, and all of their imaginary friends in their little "list" where all topics always return to their obsession.

This was also posted, on MT, on FMAT, on Wikipedia and even in the dungpile with the dungballs. Of course, dungballs are only so smart. HAHA!

Q- Who promoted Tim Hartman to 9th Degree? A- The World Modern Arnis Alliance Board of Directors. (also referred to as Advisory Board)

Q- Aren't these his juniors in the arts? A- Yes and no. The WMAA BOD is made up of leading members of the WMAA on a rotating basis. Some of these members hold rank in Modern Arnis issued by Remy Presas, some of them hold rank in other FMA systems, some hold rank in other non-FMA systems. Some hold rank under the WMAA. Some have been training longer, and some shorter.

Q- Aren't these his students?A- Yes and no. The WMAA BOD is made up of leading members of the WMAA on a rotating basis. Some of these members have trained under Datu Hartman. Some have not.

At the time, the little toadies insisted that path was wrong, and that Hartman should have gone to the PI for it to be legit. So he does, and he is recognized by Remy's own brother, and now it's a whine about how that too was wrong. Like any of them are anywhere near the knowledge or skill of the FMA and Modern Arnis like Remy and Ernesto. What makes their so called judgement better than that of recognized legit FMA Grandmasters? Of course, for a group that goes on so about rank and tradition, they never mention that not a single one of them made it past second with Remy, and I doubt that any have legitimately tested in years.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

The WMAA training camp starts tomorrow and runs thew the weekend. When it is over I'll be more than happy to address LL's questions about the Presas family endorsement (Kombatan promotion to 9th and GM) I received in April of 2007. I wont be addressing Barber's, I mean Morgan's posts about the 9th degree WMAA promotion. It has been discussed way more than needed. Everyone has said their peace on the matter and are entitled to their own opinions.

Hope to see some of you at the camp this weekend!

 

[Morgan]

What's your point Morgan?
Hartman was promoted to 7th and 9th by the WMAA board, a recognized international Modern Arnis organization. The "student promotion" fantasy has been debated and debunked, a long time ago. The only people who still have issues are the same couple of assclowns from Buffalo that always have, and all of their imaginary friends in their little "list" where all topics always return to their obsession.

This was also posted, on MT, on FMAT, on Wikipedia and even in the dungpile with the dungballs. Of course, dungballs are only so smart. HAHA!


At the time, the little toadies insisted that path was wrong, and that Hartman should have gone to the PI for it to be legit. So he does, and he is recognized by Remy's own brother, and now it's a whine about how that too was wrong. Like any of them are anywhere near the knowledge or skill of the FMA and Modern Arnis like Remy and Ernesto. What makes their so called judgement better than that of recognized legit FMA Grandmasters? Of course, for a group that goes on so about rank and tradition, they never mention that not a single one of them made it past second with Remy, and I doubt that any have legitimately tested in years.

My point is that from what I've read on this forum, ALL of the WMAA people who participated in the 2 promotions were or had been students of Datu Hartman. Is it your position that NONE of the people named in the two posts were EVER students of Datu Hartman?

Regarding the promotion to 9th degree and GM status by GM Ernesto Presas, I think that there aren't a lot of questions there because there isn't a student-teacher relationship between GM E. Presas and GM Hartman.

Morgan

 

[The Game]

My point is that from what I've read on this forum, ALL of the WMAA people who participated in the 2 promotions were or had been students of Datu Hartman. Is it your position that NONE of the people named in the two posts were EVER students of Datu Hartman?

Regarding the promotion to 9th degree and GM status by GM Ernesto Presas, I think that there aren't a lot of questions there because there isn't a student-teacher relationship between GM E. Presas and GM Hartman.

Morgan

You don't read too good do ya boy?
Let me re-quote, and I'll make it a bigger font for easier reading. Dang larger screens, make it too easy to miss facts.

Q- Aren't these his students?
A- Yes and no. The WMAA BOD is made up of leading members of the WMAA on a rotating basis. Some of these members have trained under Datu Hartman. Some have not.

In any event, you're a few years too late for that debate. *** I said, only a couple of wannabe hacks in WNY really care about that. They're too busy spiting on GM Presas now, which shows more of their true character.

Speaking of which, how do you know who has what relations with who?

Of course, we can define "student" as "someone who learned something from someone else", but that would make my own list so large it would make even my head spin. We can also say that only someones real teacher should promote them, but that would invalidate so many of these "promotions by rank boards" that go on these days, now wouldn't it?

Now, if we go that same route, lets go back to Dan here, since it is his thread after all. Dan was promoted by a board, on that board was Bram Frank, who holds a lower rank in MA80 than Dan, which would indicate that Bram was Dan's Student. So, doesn't that invalidate Dan's promotion since it involved his student?

Chew on that for a few.

 

[Dan Anderson]

Now, if we go that same route, lets go back to Dan here, since it is his thread after all. Dan was promoted by a board, on that board was Bram Frank, who holds a lower rank in MA80 than Dan, which would indicate that Bram was Dan's Student. So, doesn't that invalidate Dan's promotion since it involved his student?

Hi Game,

Need to clear up something. I am Bram's senior in Remy Presas Modern Arnis. He holds a position in MA-80 just as I hold a position in CSSD/SC. In a way of looking at it I suppose he would be my junior in MA-80. In the same way of looking at it I would be his junior in CSSD/SC. Neither of us look upon the other as such.

As he has been in the martial arts about the same number of years as I have (coming up on 42 years in the martial arts overall - who out there is over 42 years old let alone in the martial arts for that long?), he is my contemporary. What is not broadly known is that Bram is not only experienced in Modern Arnis as it is supposed but he has experience in Hung Gar Kung Fu, Wing Chun Kung Fu and American Karate from the Mid-America school in Minnesota - there are others but these are what I remember right off the top of my head.

He also tested for position on the Grand Masters Council two years before me so in a way of thinking he could be viewed as my senior as regards the council membership. As I said neither of us look at it that way and the other members of the board were definitiely my seniors.

Morgan,

Tim's thing regarding his position in WMAA by whom and ranking and so forth as well as subsequnt ranking and titling by GM Ernesto is best taken up by Tim himself. He and I have spoken over the phone on it and I understand his viewpoint on the whole matter. As I am not WMAA and he is not MA-80, neither of us us have any conflict on the subject.

I knew my announcement would light up the switchboard. How's that for showing my age?

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[bobquinn]

Mr. Anderson I think it might be time to ask for ID's seems to be some whining from the underage. I applaud all that have kept the flame of contraversy alive. I've run stuff with all the freindly faces spoken about with regard to rank and in no doubt they all have game! Bingo.

B Quinn

 

[arnisador]

The funny thing is...all this about rank, which most people profess not to be so impressed by anyway. Is anyone suggesting that either of these individuals lack skill?

 

[Dan Anderson]

Mr. Anderson I think it might be time to ask for ID's

Bobby,

I'd LOVE for some real names to pop up so I know who is talking. Oh well...

The funny thing is...all this about rank, which most people profess not to be so impressed by anyway. Is anyone suggesting that either of these individuals lack skill?

Ain't nobody said nuttin yet.

Yours,
Moi

 

[The Game]

More FMA political combat? You guys are close to tieing Ninjutsu.

FMA politics is a beast all it's own. Has something to do with most of us carry and most of us are a bit nuts from too many headshots.
:lol:

Hi Game,

Need to clear up something. I am Bram's senior in Remy Presas Modern Arnis. He holds a position in MA-80 just as I hold a position in CSSD/SC. In a way of looking at it I suppose he would be my junior in MA-80. In the same way of looking at it I would be his junior in CSSD/SC. Neither of us look upon the other as such.

So you gave each other rank in each others respective systems.

As he has been in the martial arts about the same number of years as I have (coming up on 42 years in the martial arts overall - who out there is over 42 years old let alone in the martial arts for that long?), he is my contemporary. What is not broadly known is that Bram is not only experienced in Modern Arnis as it is supposed but he has experience in Hung Gar Kung Fu, Wing Chun Kung Fu and American Karate from the Mid-America school in Minnesota - there are others but these are what I remember right off the top of my head.

But, what numerical ranks does he hold in all of those? Those numbers seem to be very important to a couple of monkeys I know of.

He also tested for position on the Grand Masters Council two years before me so in a way of thinking he could be viewed as my senior as regards the council membership. As I said neither of us look at it that way and the other members of the board were definitiely my seniors.

So he is a "senior" on this particular council, but a peer in the arts based on comparable time training and rankings?

Bobby,

I'd LOVE for some real names to pop up so I know who is talking. Oh well...

Ain't nobody said nuttin yet.

Yours,
Moi

Richard Harder. You can call me Dick. Half my rep points do. :lol:
I'm a Gemini. My favorite colors are black and blue, and I wear them often. I drive American, and my pickup has a gun rack. Last book I read was Ric Flairs bio, Last movie I watched isn't allowed here, and the last magazine I read had glossy pages and I've heard rumors it has articles but I ain't done found them yet. I love the smell of burning rattan and burnt gunpowder. I train various FMA, have a small private club in NY, and have been at classes involving quite a few names in the arts, including those refered to here. My favorite drink is cold, frothy and often, and my favorite food is anything you can put tobasco on, which so far is everything.

Now, lets see the other stick smokers ball up and ID.